Dalek

From this:

And this:

And from your 'slow recovery' curse when I said that I could recover from addiction by permanently quitting the use of alcohol & drugs:

stugotz

Really? A perfect case of You say "Tom-A-to, I say Tom-AA-to"

First off my friend to even imply that I dissuade anyone from not drinking is so off base I cant even respond.

Second, Through my own experience and working with countless others I can say that abstinence alone doesnt work.

Third, the "Slow Recovery" comment was actually from my heart, it was no way intended as a "Curse"

I guess there will always be different views on all things. Sometimes I have a little trouble getting my point across and not being taken the wrong way. Good luck and God bless.

ReadyAndAble

I got the slow recovery comment, Stu. It struck me as genuine. It runs totally contrary to AVRT -- kinda the equivalent of me wishing an AA member lots of willpower -- but I don't expect everyone to know the fine points of my approach to recovery. I took it as wishing for long-term success.

It's a good example of how meanings and even truths about recovery shift depending on individual perspectives.

Abstinence alone works beautifully for me. It ended my addiction. Did it address every issue in my life? No. That's why I have philosophy and music and kayaking and friendships and chocolate ice cream--to address all those other things.

Help me to understand why you would tell me, in essence, that my recovery is a lie?

RobbyRobot

Is addiction an illness?
Is alcoholsim an illness?
Is abstinence sobriety?
Is sobriety expected to include psychic revolution?
Is psychic revolution expected to include spiritual experience?

Is personal experience the gold standard?

From my own experience, I've learned some questions are answered best respective of the life experiences of the seeker. Sometimes, one absolute answer can only be realized at the expence of open-mindedness.

I think there is a broad consensus that the psyche of each individual respectively is the single deciding factor which points to the best answer for all the above questions...

Myself, I won't be boxed in by absolutes of this, that, or the other thing.

Great discussion.

stugotz

I dont think I ever said your recovery was a lie. In any way did you come to see a change in yourself? Beliefs, morals, empathy? If so that is what I am trying to explain, or understand better. I guess its the "Chicken or the Egg" dilemma huh?

BackToSquareOne

That's interesting, I don't think that alcoholism is part of the essence of who we were in the sense that we were born alcoholics or anything like that. What I do think is that if we reconnect with our spiritual side we do change the essence of what we are going forward. I drank and used every drug I could get my hands on for well over 3 decades, decided to knock it off for good on 8/21/2008 after a hospitalization and never looked back.

I didn't start to regain any semblance of happiness and peace of mind for almost 2 years tho. I didn't just abstain, that would never have worked for me . I used many different things to claw my way out of the hole but no formal prrogram. I used this forum, mindfulness practice, reconnecting with my religion, a lot of AA's ideas on resentments, fear and all of that... the list was endless.

I can only speak for myself but I do think I changed the essence of what I had become but it was a very slow process. I didn't have to do all of those things to quit drinking but to regain the happiness factor they were necessary. I don't know, maybe we all are on the same page just going about the process in different ways.

Mark75

We probably are on the same page.

I don't believe that I was born alcoholic either, but I do believe I was born curious, LOL.

ReadyAndAble

Well, I'm saying abstinence alone fixed something. You've said that can never happen. Statements of universal fact like that, at least to my ear, do not leave room for my experience to be different than yours.

It's cool you brought up morals, because I do view my abstinence as a moral commitment. To me, that's what Dalek meant by abstinence being its own reward. That's true of other virtues, I think, like honesty and humility.

Anyway, good discussion. Even if we don't agree, I like your style. Just sayin'.

stugotz

Abstinence alone does fix some things, like DUI's, hangovers, blackouts, etc... But unless I addressed, and I said "I" addressed the reasons why "I" drank and drugged, for me it was only a matter of time till "I" did it again. All I am saying is that there is such an emphasis put on the booze and drugs that some may overlook the personality defects that lead us to that drink.

ReadyAndAble

Coolio. I appreciate your use of words like "I", "some", and "may."

Because in case you haven't noticed, addiction was my only personality defect...

Oops, did someone say something about humility?

stugotz

Uh oh, that kind of talk could be bad for the the morale of the troops. LOL :rotfxko

freshstart57

I did, I recovered by quitting the booze. No more alcohol, ever, so no more alcoholism. I've got other problems, true, but drinking isn't one of them.

I recovered on a Monday morning between 9:30 and 9:45.

Dee74

Lets all refocus on the OP, who I notice has not been back for a while....

thanks

D

freshstart57

OK, Dee, fair enough.
1). Third Step. I think by bringing up the concept of locus of control, you have hit to the heart of the main reason why you are having trouble with AA. You seem to be internal, as do I, and others are external, and there is an entire continuum in between. The precept of the adoption of a faith-centered solution to alcoholism doesn't track well with everyone.
The discussion of the place of agnosticism within the paradigm essentially tells you that you are an agnostic because you haven't really tried hard enough to find and identify your HP. If only you can 'lay aside prejudice and express a willingness to believe', you can then make that choice between 'an alcoholic death or life on a spiritual basis'.
2).While some may take that hardline, not unusual with staunch believers in any faith oriented group, I know that there are others that will agree that all paths do indeed lead to Rome. They were just quiet about it.
3). This was not my AA experience. Folks were generally positive and generous of spirit in the groups whose meetings I attended.
4). See #1.
5).There is an intentional breaking down and denial of ego, instructing that ego leads to alcoholism. Ego is something to be 'deflated' or 'punctured', so that the 'light of reason' can shine through.

My experience with AA, even though it is substantial, was limited, but this is how things seemed to me. You may decide that these ideas are deal breakers, as I did, and carry on with your search for ideas that work for you.

spryte

1) The Third Step:

I have no problem admitting I have a problem over alcohol.. I just don't understand how to give your life over to God.. does this mean I do not have control over my life anymore? Isn't this more like having an external focus of control instead of an internal focus of control? I learned that it was better to have an internal locus of control, and people who do are more sucesssful.. This step confuses me.. also being agnostic does not help because I feel like I'm telling an imaginary friend to help me to stop drinking. Also I don't like knowing I have NO control at all.. I understand we can't control everything.. but we do have some control of things.

.....

This step takes a leap of faith. I don't quite know WHO or WHAT I'm 'handing over control' to...all I know is that doing things all by myself has been a failure in the sense that I feel empty, or euphoric, or despondent. I never really feel at peace. I'm either on top, or at the bottom, or I feel that things are pointless.

I don't feel like I'm handing over control as much as I'm letting something GUIDE me. I am still the DOER, but I'm letting something guide me besides my own ego and whims.


2) The Hardcore AAers:

I like that some people are passionate about their sobriety.. but some people can sound like they are self-righteous.. is AA the ONLY way to recover? It's 2012.. how come people bash any other way of treating alcoholism?

...

AA really really works for some people and it totally changes their lives and they are passionate about it; however, it is NOT the only way. I chalk some of this up to good intentions, perhaps a bit of ignorance about the other programs and ways to recovery out there, and I just let it go.

3) The pettyness:

Sometimes meetings people seem to bicker over such pettyness.. many people in AA don't even seem really happy

...

You are right. You are so very right. I have found that once I reached out beyond the meetings, started to do things on my own, with a sponsor, and when I started to socialize with members with that twinkle in their eye outside of meetings, I did not mind these people so much. There is more to the program than meetings! We are all doing our best one day at a time.

I edited this to add that a couple of years ago I was one of these crotchety people. Things change! People change! We are all on our own journey...toghether.

4) Not giving credit to yourself:

How come it's frowned upon to give yourself a pat on the back for staying sober? I understand you got help, but realistically it was YOU that got yourself sober.. right?

....

Yes, it is me who is doing the work, but part of the work includes taking my ego down a peg or ten. My ego got me in some serious trouble over the years. This is about staying humble. There's nothing wrong with healthy self-esteem, but over-inflated pride can be a problem. I am slowly trying to sort out how my pride has affected me. I'm an egomaniac with an inferiority complex!! I'm trying to leard to be humble - I feel a lot more peaceful when I feel humble. Things flow better; I'm more open to those around me.

And if I get too self-congratulatory over all the WORK i'm doing, I may get too relaxed and stop doing it. It's a DAILY thing....there's really not a whole lot of opportunity to navel gaze and congratulate myself. I've just gotta KEEP DOING IT.

Maybe to give myself a boost when I'm feeling down. But I don't want to get too meta about my daily work, which has to be done every day.

5) Self esteem:

I understand ego can be destructive.. but some people continuously bash themselves.. saying "yeah I'm not smart" or "don't let be in control or I'll screw it up" or "I have to do the opposite of what I think"... is it not okay to have confidence? Eventually I want to be confident again.. not cocky.. but have a healthy self-esteem.. doesn't this type of talk prevent it?

...

My little blurb above covers this.

ok...that's my 2 cents!

interesting discussion

tomsteve

i feel that to get a perspective on whether AA works or not should go back to the beginning.

when the fellowship 1st came about, which it didnt have a name or a book at the time, the alcoholics who were recovering by the principles that were being used from another form, the people had already acquaintence with delerium, hospitals, asylums, and jails. they had lost their health, business,home, friends, and family. there were at a point that there were not too many options left: go onto the bitter end( which wasnt far off) or get sober.they were met by members of the yet to be named fellowship while still in the hospital, asylum, or jail.
now, to the BB, which clearly lays out the description of the acloholic which AA is intended for. this is the 1st paragraph of"we agnostics:"

In the preceding chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. We hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the nonalcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. .

what this is saying is the BB has given a distinction between and alcoholic as AA perceives it. if a person has read the preceding chapters and has found that those chapters describe the person reading, they may be an alcoholic and have a solution.

AA also says it has no monopoly on recovery and urges anyone who doesnt like AA to seek out another solution. we just want to see people recover from alcoholism, no matter which way they use.

miamifella

The first three points drove me away. I may be too career and security focused, but I need a level of control over the future that many (though not all) people in 12-step programs seem to have a problem with.

It was the self-righteousness and pettiness that finally got me out. It got to the point where I would avoid speaking in meetings since I did not want to face the critique session after the meeting about what I shared. The only people who "had what I wanted" were the people who came back to speak but were no longer regular attendees at meetings. Incidentally, most of them seemed to be self-directed people who were active in the community at large beyond the fellowship.

Since then I do everything wrong. I tell people about the problems I am having. I call people when I have thoughts of using. I plan for the future. All the things that I was critiqued for are working for me. I do not think that this path would work for everyone--and truthfully, I think what I am doing is closer to what the Big Book recommends than what is recommended in the fellowship. But I could not do it alone, so I had to leave the program and find the support I needed.

I do not feel a need to "take credit" for the changes. In fact, I think my recovery owes everything to my shrink and my friends. Without them I could not do it.

Dalek

Stugotz,

This, here, in my mind, is the heart of our disagreement. I went down many paths leading to nowhere, including, but not limited to, AA. I say "not limited to AA" because the psychological-recovery crowd also adopts the "drinking is but a symptom" stance. I've seen several post from such "not AA" people on this forum.

For me, personally, though, it makes no difference whatsoever whether I am "restless, irritable, and discontent" or "happy, joyous, and free" -- the Beast (addictive desire) still lurks, and it still lusts. I had to meet it on its own turf, and just as it wants to drink regardless, I had to abstain regardless.

While I will admit that on some level, I envy those that have figured out what their "underlying issues" are, for me, the Beast (addictive desire) is immutable, and taking detours is a death wish. I may as well just blow my head off and save myself the trouble of dying the hard way from organ failure.

(Does that make me a really real alcoholic?)

This said, stugotz, I do get where you are coming from, and I don't take it personally -- I just don't believe it applies to everyone.

To the OP: figure out whether or not your drinking is "but a symptom" or not -- this will help you decide which approach to take.

RobbyRobot

Awesome share, Dalek.

For me, eventually, alcoholic drinking was a sure enough means to an end. My alcoholic-minded thinking didn't care if I was happy or sad, angry or content, satisfied or miserable... no difference whatsoever. My purpose in drinking was to be drunk. Everything else was secondary. When drunk, I felt as good sleeping alone in a ditch as I did sleeping in who knows who's bed crashed out from some whatever party. I couldn't of cared less while drunk, and that was the whole purpose in being drunk: not caring enough to care.

I've never figured out what my underlying issues are, or were, or will be, or how or why they may or may not have kept me drunk. I never forgot how wonderful it felt as a 12 year old, my first serious early days of drinking, to not care about me anymore. My life at the time overwhelmed me on so many levels, not caring was akin to a supremely wonderful vacation. Not so much an escape, more like a new adventure into the unknown, and it is no suprise to me I became a chronic alcoholic that summer of my 15th year of life. I tried to quit at 18. Finally did at 24.

I still don't care why I drank, except I know that while I at first loved to be drunk, I eventually also hated being drunk. Its important enough for me though to understand, I never quit loving being drunk in exchange for hating being drunk. I simply eventually both loved and hated being drunk.

I am able to stay quit because my alcoholic mind (my Beast, no less) is a dumb animal that I have secured in having it arrested and managed into a deep coma, for lack of better words. My Beast is alive, but very f'cked up and unsatisfied, hungry, and alone. My Beast suffers. Booyah.

I no longer suffer being drunk, or wanting to be drunk, or fearing I'll ever get drunk, or not caring about my not caring about whatever. Booyah.

I'm a lucky guy. I can see with mine own eyes the wonderful similarities and remarkable differences within the passions of the contributors to this thread. In a word, I feel less alone.

I know this too: AA was never itself going to be enough for me. Right from day one I wanted/needed more, and I surely have received more over my many years. I also know that had RR using AVRT been around in 1981 when I quit, it too alone would not have been enough either.

Now I have both. I'm feeling good, and I'm feeling sober. When I dont feel good, I'm still sober. Sweeet!

Its amazing what changing out an alcoholic mind for a sober mind can accomplish. No matter what path I may of had chosen back in 1981, I would still be not drunk today. I know it.

CarolD

As Dee ,mentioned the OP has not come back to read this thread.

Once again....
we are here to offer support and once again ...it's become
yet another of "my program is better than yours"
ego puffing and not what SR is about.

Please consider what examples you are when you post....
we have newcomers and lurkers...would they really want
to follow x y or z by your actions/words?


Darn shame....I'm closeing it.