Opinions or experience about AA
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
The Third Step
The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions helped me a ton with step 3. I specifically talks about "having no control". I agree with your statement, there are many things I can't control, but there are many that I can, thus, the serenity prayer. Reading "We agnostics" can help tool. You may be surprised at the number of agnostics that have recovered using AA. It is possible.
Hardcore AArs
there will always be people that go 'over-the-top'. It's just a fact. Anyone AAr that tells you there way is the only way is, in my opinion, not living by the principles. It directly contradicts what the book says.
Pettiness
Yeah, again, it's a fact. Ignore it and the people who perpetuate it.
Self-esteem
You deserve all the happiness sobriety can bring you. Sometimes that means taking a hard look at yourself and your past behaviors. The hard truth sometimes is that we we're so into ourselves we thought we were owed something. On there hand, internally, we were beating ourselves up. For me, it's a double-edged sword .. I have to find the right balance of loving myself and remaining as humble as possible.
The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions helped me a ton with step 3. I specifically talks about "having no control". I agree with your statement, there are many things I can't control, but there are many that I can, thus, the serenity prayer. Reading "We agnostics" can help tool. You may be surprised at the number of agnostics that have recovered using AA. It is possible.
Hardcore AArs
there will always be people that go 'over-the-top'. It's just a fact. Anyone AAr that tells you there way is the only way is, in my opinion, not living by the principles. It directly contradicts what the book says.
Pettiness
Yeah, again, it's a fact. Ignore it and the people who perpetuate it.
Self-esteem
You deserve all the happiness sobriety can bring you. Sometimes that means taking a hard look at yourself and your past behaviors. The hard truth sometimes is that we we're so into ourselves we thought we were owed something. On there hand, internally, we were beating ourselves up. For me, it's a double-edged sword .. I have to find the right balance of loving myself and remaining as humble as possible.
Let go and Let God!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 352
I am going to try my best to give my experience on what you have asked.
3rd Step:
When I drank I did my will. My will got me into the rooms of AA. Doing God's will is living the AA program, the steps. When I came into the rooms I didn't understand giving my life over to God either. I am a control freak and I want to control. When I read the 12 and 12 book, I got a better understanding. After working the steps, I realized my problem with step 3 was I still had drinks in me. It took me 3 years of being in the rooms to finally surrender.
The Hardcore AAers:
I am a Hardcore AAer, because it is what saved me. Is AA the only way to recover? It was the only way for me. I only have experience in what worked for me. No other way worked for me.
The pettyness:
There is pettyness everywhere. Go to different meetings, I am sure you will find happy people.
Not giving credit to yourself:
I didn't get myself sober. I wanted to be sober for 3 years before I got it. What got me sober was working the steps and living the AA program. I don't deserve a pat on the back.
Self-esteem:
I had no self-esteem when I walked into the doors of AA. I was beaten. I hated myself and was only alive because I didn't want to leave my daughter an orphan. Today I love myself. Can I be critical? Yes, sometimes. I no longer look in the mirror and hate what I see.
Only you can decide if AA is correct for you. Us who have been successful are passionate about it, because it saved our lives. Wish you the best of luck!!
3rd Step:
When I drank I did my will. My will got me into the rooms of AA. Doing God's will is living the AA program, the steps. When I came into the rooms I didn't understand giving my life over to God either. I am a control freak and I want to control. When I read the 12 and 12 book, I got a better understanding. After working the steps, I realized my problem with step 3 was I still had drinks in me. It took me 3 years of being in the rooms to finally surrender.
The Hardcore AAers:
I am a Hardcore AAer, because it is what saved me. Is AA the only way to recover? It was the only way for me. I only have experience in what worked for me. No other way worked for me.
The pettyness:
There is pettyness everywhere. Go to different meetings, I am sure you will find happy people.
Not giving credit to yourself:
I didn't get myself sober. I wanted to be sober for 3 years before I got it. What got me sober was working the steps and living the AA program. I don't deserve a pat on the back.
Self-esteem:
I had no self-esteem when I walked into the doors of AA. I was beaten. I hated myself and was only alive because I didn't want to leave my daughter an orphan. Today I love myself. Can I be critical? Yes, sometimes. I no longer look in the mirror and hate what I see.
Only you can decide if AA is correct for you. Us who have been successful are passionate about it, because it saved our lives. Wish you the best of luck!!
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 14,069
There will be no problem for you to be an agnostic in AA. Atheist/agnostic's in AA have achieved decades of being recovered from alcoholism. Some freethinking AA members edit out the quasi-religious bits, others do the necessary mental gymnastics to work the 12 Step program of AA.
Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA. He wrote:
Agnostic/Atheist in AAOne axiom that have saved my sanity and life in recovery is: take what is helpful and leave the rest. That especially is true for what other AA members say or write about AA.
Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA. He wrote:
For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery.
“1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
- J.B., San Diego, California.
What helps me stay in AA is knowing how other atheist stay in AA and recover by using AA as a primary means alcoholism treatment. Below ar some very helpful links to informat and experiences for the freethinker in AA.“1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
- J.B., San Diego, California.
Agnostic/Atheist in AAOne axiom that have saved my sanity and life in recovery is: take what is helpful and leave the rest. That especially is true for what other AA members say or write about AA.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 14,069
Originally Posted by 2granddaughters
Please Google and read AA's "The Doctors Opinion", "How It Works" and "The Promises of Alcoholics Anonymous".
Try the other paths ..... I wish you the best. AA will be there when you need it.
Bob R
Try the other paths ..... I wish you the best. AA will be there when you need it.
Bob R
Originally Posted by Sunny27
Not everyone 'needs' AA.
Your post seems quite condescending.
Believing AA is the only way is wrong and deluded.
Your post seems quite condescending.
Believing AA is the only way is wrong and deluded.
I and others like myself came into AA battered, beat-up and bused in the brain from decades of drinking alcoholically. Talk about having a 'stinky thinker'...LOL. So I take that in account when I socially mix with other alkies.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Notheast US
Posts: 524
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't believe that there is a "one size fits all" approach towards recovery. We are all individuals, with different personalities, beliefs, strengths and weaknesses and receptivity.
For me personally, AA is a hard sell. However, there is no reason to completely reject AA if parts of it do appeal to you. As with anything, you can embrace the parts that work for you and still participate while showing your respect to the overall good of the program by keeping to yourself components of the program that you disagree with. It's part of independent thinking. If looking for a sponsor, I'm sure that there are many people in AA who are flexible and embrace parts of the program, but not its entirety. You'd be able to suss that out with some questions about what they like best about the program and least, what steps they felt were the most and least meaningful to them, etc.
Not all AA groups are alike, nor are all AA members alike.
I'm going to use a parallel here. I was raised in a strict Catholic household. During my first confession, I ran out of the confessional in tears, absolutely terrified. My father told me that I did not have to go to confession (a sacrament), because "No one but God can forgive your sins." My dad is a scientist and as the years passed, I began to realize that things he said were not in keeping with a lot of Catholic doctrine. He does not believe in heaven, as he cannot conceive of the space for all those souls...kind of funny that a scientist is limiting himself to earthly dimensions. He goes to church for the sense of community and because he firmly believes in the teachings of Christ, a radical, and Christian values, which he exemplifies in his daily living.
If my father were to espouse his true beliefs in church, he would not be considered a good Catholic. He is however, a good Christian, and church fulfills a need for him, the congregation and the community. Likewise, I believe that it is possible for people to do the same with AA.
For me personally, AA is a hard sell. However, there is no reason to completely reject AA if parts of it do appeal to you. As with anything, you can embrace the parts that work for you and still participate while showing your respect to the overall good of the program by keeping to yourself components of the program that you disagree with. It's part of independent thinking. If looking for a sponsor, I'm sure that there are many people in AA who are flexible and embrace parts of the program, but not its entirety. You'd be able to suss that out with some questions about what they like best about the program and least, what steps they felt were the most and least meaningful to them, etc.
Not all AA groups are alike, nor are all AA members alike.
I'm going to use a parallel here. I was raised in a strict Catholic household. During my first confession, I ran out of the confessional in tears, absolutely terrified. My father told me that I did not have to go to confession (a sacrament), because "No one but God can forgive your sins." My dad is a scientist and as the years passed, I began to realize that things he said were not in keeping with a lot of Catholic doctrine. He does not believe in heaven, as he cannot conceive of the space for all those souls...kind of funny that a scientist is limiting himself to earthly dimensions. He goes to church for the sense of community and because he firmly believes in the teachings of Christ, a radical, and Christian values, which he exemplifies in his daily living.
If my father were to espouse his true beliefs in church, he would not be considered a good Catholic. He is however, a good Christian, and church fulfills a need for him, the congregation and the community. Likewise, I believe that it is possible for people to do the same with AA.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
Originally Posted by dgajdusek 
Hi, everyone. I have been in and out of AA for 4 years now. I hate that I can't stick to it.. and I'm not bashing AA or downing AA, because I want to be able to commit to it.. but for some reason my mind finds ways to always question AA. I think AA is great for people who don't want to feel alone and have a sense of support.. but some things really bother me sometimes. And here are a few things.. and please do not get offended, I just want advice on how to perceive AA more positively, because the truth is.. I'm tired of drinking and I do not want to do it anymore.. so here's my list.. and please give me honest feedback..
1) The Third Step:
I have no problem admitting I have a problem over alcohol.. I just don't understand how to give your life over to God.. does this mean I do not have control over my life anymore? Isn't this more like having an external focus of control instead of an internal focus of control? I learned that it was better to have an internal locus of control, and people who do are more sucesssful.. This step confuses me.. also being agnostic does not help because I feel like I'm telling an imaginary friend to help me to stop drinking. Also I don't like knowing I have NO control at all.. I understand we can't control everything.. but we do have some control of things.
2) The Hardcore AAers:
I like that some people are passionate about their sobriety.. but some people can sound like they are self-righteous.. is AA the ONLY way to recover? It's 2012.. how come people bash any other way of treating alcoholism?
3) The pettyness:
Sometimes meetings people seem to bicker over such pettyness.. many people in AA don't even seem really happy
4) Not giving credit to yourself:
How come it's frowned upon to give yourself a pat on the back for staying sober? I understand you got help, but realistically it was YOU that got yourself sober.. right?
5) Self esteem:
I understand ego can be destructive.. but some people continuously bash themselves.. saying "yeah I'm not smart" or "don't let be in control or I'll screw it up" or "I have to do the opposite of what I think"... is it not okay to have confidence? Eventually I want to be confident again.. not cocky.. but have a healthy self-esteem.. doesn't this type of talk prevent it?
I love AA for a lot of things also.. I think it's great moral support.. and some things such as learning acceptance, helping others, and the common feeling amongst people is great and that's way I do not want to feel this way.
Again, please don't take offense to what I'm saying.. because I want help.. and I don't want to think of AA in a negative way.. it's just this stuff continuously bothers me when I'm back in AA.. if anyone has opinions or any advice, it would be greatly appreciated.. thank you :-)
1) The Third Step:
I have no problem admitting I have a problem over alcohol.. I just don't understand how to give your life over to God.. does this mean I do not have control over my life anymore? Isn't this more like having an external focus of control instead of an internal focus of control? I learned that it was better to have an internal locus of control, and people who do are more sucesssful.. This step confuses me.. also being agnostic does not help because I feel like I'm telling an imaginary friend to help me to stop drinking. Also I don't like knowing I have NO control at all.. I understand we can't control everything.. but we do have some control of things.
2) The Hardcore AAers:
I like that some people are passionate about their sobriety.. but some people can sound like they are self-righteous.. is AA the ONLY way to recover? It's 2012.. how come people bash any other way of treating alcoholism?
3) The pettyness:
Sometimes meetings people seem to bicker over such pettyness.. many people in AA don't even seem really happy
4) Not giving credit to yourself:
How come it's frowned upon to give yourself a pat on the back for staying sober? I understand you got help, but realistically it was YOU that got yourself sober.. right?
5) Self esteem:
I understand ego can be destructive.. but some people continuously bash themselves.. saying "yeah I'm not smart" or "don't let be in control or I'll screw it up" or "I have to do the opposite of what I think"... is it not okay to have confidence? Eventually I want to be confident again.. not cocky.. but have a healthy self-esteem.. doesn't this type of talk prevent it?
I love AA for a lot of things also.. I think it's great moral support.. and some things such as learning acceptance, helping others, and the common feeling amongst people is great and that's way I do not want to feel this way.
Again, please don't take offense to what I'm saying.. because I want help.. and I don't want to think of AA in a negative way.. it's just this stuff continuously bothers me when I'm back in AA.. if anyone has opinions or any advice, it would be greatly appreciated.. thank you :-)
1) Look at your track record. How has life been working for you since you have been managing it? Going great? Cool, no need to proceed. Going poorly? Maybe consider giving up control. The process of actually turning over your will and life to the care of God as you understand him, takes place in teh remaining steps. With step 3 you are simply deciding that your way is not working out too well and you are willing to do the rest of the steps. Giving over control is a scary thought, but I have found that every area of my life that I allow my God to manage runs a lot, and I mean A LOT smoother.
2) There are other ways to get sober. But AA is not the place to look for other ways. Go to AA if you want AA.
Some people are passionate about this thing. Who can blame them? It saved their lives. Its hard to go anywhere where there is a lot of people and not encountered self righteousness.
3)There are many people in AA who are strictly "meeting makers." As for actual program, they have none. As a result they arent happy. Then there are folks who are enthusiastic about life, follow the program, find joy in helping others and carry a great message. Both types of people are examples. Its your choice which example you wish to follow.
4)Selfishness and self centerdness are the root of our problem. Ego deflation is part of the process of gaining some humility. It is important to get credit for things we accomplish, but it is more important to understand we must give credit where credit is due. If I believe I am keeping myself sober, what do I need AA for?
5) A definition of humility that I like is simply "right sized." I should not think to highly or lowly of myself. Both are a lack of humility. AA is a group of alcoholics. There is a major deficiency of humility among most of us. You will see it goes both ways. Beating myself up is just as self centered as bragging. Confidence is crucial and is built as one works the steps, but over confidence or cockiness should be avoided. Again, there are examples of both which you can follow. THe choice is yours.
AA is by no means perfect. Far from it. It is the imperfections themselves which allow it to be a spiritual program.
Open mindedness is essential. That is coming from me, who struggles with open mindedness in meetings all the time. It is a practice. Try different meetings. Try to leave your judgments at the door and try to look for examples of what you want and go for it.
Thanks for putting these questions out here. It gave me some great stuff to ponder.Wish you the best.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Here is how I look at these,
1“Turning over” ones will, is not in a sense, possible. We always make our own decisions. The question is, do we follow the guidance from another source (that we have decided has a better way of doing things) when it conflicts with what we want to do?
2)As far as #2 and #3 go, well, these are just opportunities to practice tolerance IMO (see #1 above for guidance in this).
3)With regard to, self-esteem and taking credit, do it! (for decisions not related to guidance from a greater power).
Thanks for being open to getting the views of others for your concerns. I think it’s a good way to move forward. Best wishes
1“Turning over” ones will, is not in a sense, possible. We always make our own decisions. The question is, do we follow the guidance from another source (that we have decided has a better way of doing things) when it conflicts with what we want to do?
2)As far as #2 and #3 go, well, these are just opportunities to practice tolerance IMO (see #1 above for guidance in this).
3)With regard to, self-esteem and taking credit, do it! (for decisions not related to guidance from a greater power).
Thanks for being open to getting the views of others for your concerns. I think it’s a good way to move forward. Best wishes
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: De
Posts: 1,333
I'm another who made AA my higher power. The third steps tells me just to work the rest of the steps. The whole key to recovery in AA is working the 12 steps. Look at any other organization and you'll see the entire list of hardcore members , pettiness, people overselling or underselling themselves, etc..
As far as other methods of recovery, I have no experience. I know AA isn't the only way.
As far as other methods of recovery, I have no experience. I know AA isn't the only way.
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
I'm not a member of AA and I'll be the first to tell you--no offense to the AA folks--I don't like AA. It's not my thing at all. But I'll be sober 14 years in a couple of weeks, so it's pretty clear to me that AA isn't necessary for sobriety. At least not my own.
Here's the thing though. Even though there are plenty of other ways to do the recovery thing you will not find them at an AA meeting, so it is best not to look for them there. Doing so is like going to a dog show and complaining because all you see there is dogs!
Join us on the secular forums or check out something like SMART Recovery. That's a much more positive way to move forward!
Here's the thing though. Even though there are plenty of other ways to do the recovery thing you will not find them at an AA meeting, so it is best not to look for them there. Doing so is like going to a dog show and complaining because all you see there is dogs!
Join us on the secular forums or check out something like SMART Recovery. That's a much more positive way to move forward!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,006
There are other programs besides AA.
At times I have felt partly critical / partly accepting of AA, at times I have felt mostly critical.
Lately I feel totally accepting of it and I am doing the things that are suggested and loving it.
AA hasn't changed...hmmm...what has changed?
That's not to say that it is the program for everyone. I just want to point out that your feelings and opinions about it might change over time.
At times I have felt partly critical / partly accepting of AA, at times I have felt mostly critical.
Lately I feel totally accepting of it and I am doing the things that are suggested and loving it.
AA hasn't changed...hmmm...what has changed?
That's not to say that it is the program for everyone. I just want to point out that your feelings and opinions about it might change over time.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
You need a psychic change to quit by any method or no method at all. That is to say your thought process must change or you will fail. It does seem that some people can elicit a change in their thinking much easier than others. If you continue to view alcohol as a positive, enjoyable thing then it's going to be a constant struggle, an uphill battle.
It does seem almost impossible for anyone to actually work the steps of AA and not undergo a psychic change. The million dollar question is whether or not all of that is really necessary just to quit drinking. For most people I would say it's overkill. Any thoughts ?
It does seem almost impossible for anyone to actually work the steps of AA and not undergo a psychic change. The million dollar question is whether or not all of that is really necessary just to quit drinking. For most people I would say it's overkill. Any thoughts ?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by Mark75
Sure, of course it is, if they can stop on their own and be happy.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
The unending discussion of AA vs. other paths is one I hope will never stop. Not because I enjoy arguments, but because when discussed in a respectful and civil manner it fuels the fires of sobriety. When we are questioning we are thinking and when thinking we are actively looking for solutions. ONLYTHETRUTH makes a very salient point, it is very difficult to attend AA meetings and then ask those in attendance for another way.
I got sober in AA almost 13 years ago and still attend on a very sporadic basis. I seem to get a cosmic tap on the shoulder when I am needing to attended meetings and examine my thinking. This is not a recommendation for anyone else, it is simply what I have found works for me. I do practice the principals I have learned in AA to the best of MY ability. I have found that I can become petty about people in meetings if I let myself, and I need to remember that they are getting what they need and it really isn't my business to sit in judgment. AA meetings are not a bastion of mental health, too many drunks and ex-drunks in attendance in my opinion.
My sponsor told me years ago when I said "how proud I was to have gotten myself sober." He told me, "You be grateful and let those in your life who want the best for you to be proud." That registered with me and preserved my ego but reminds me that there are many other forces in my life that enable me to stay sober.
I practice a belief system that recognizes and uses higher power, but not a mono theistic belief, it dovetails nicely with AA for me and I have found that I don't need to expound on it in meetings, but simply respect other's beliefs as theirs.
AA allowed me to confront my problem and showed me a path that I could follow to get sober and so far stay that way. I do not discount other paths, but when I have been curious about those other ways, I have as was previously suggested, not tried to explore them in the AA rooms.
In his celebrated book, 'On Liberty', the English philosopher
John S. Mill argued that silencing an opinion is "a peculiar evil."
If the opinion is right, we are robbed of the "opportunity of
Exchanging error for truth"; and if it's wrong, we are deprived of
A deeper understanding of the truth in its "collision with error."
If we know only our own side of the argument, we hardly know
Even that: it becomes stale, soon learned by rote, untested,
A pallid and lifeless truth.
-- Carl Sagan
Great questions and even better answers and opinions in this thread. I suspect that all those who are writing their thoughts are not doing so with a drink at their elbow.
Cheers,
Jon
I got sober in AA almost 13 years ago and still attend on a very sporadic basis. I seem to get a cosmic tap on the shoulder when I am needing to attended meetings and examine my thinking. This is not a recommendation for anyone else, it is simply what I have found works for me. I do practice the principals I have learned in AA to the best of MY ability. I have found that I can become petty about people in meetings if I let myself, and I need to remember that they are getting what they need and it really isn't my business to sit in judgment. AA meetings are not a bastion of mental health, too many drunks and ex-drunks in attendance in my opinion.
My sponsor told me years ago when I said "how proud I was to have gotten myself sober." He told me, "You be grateful and let those in your life who want the best for you to be proud." That registered with me and preserved my ego but reminds me that there are many other forces in my life that enable me to stay sober.
I practice a belief system that recognizes and uses higher power, but not a mono theistic belief, it dovetails nicely with AA for me and I have found that I don't need to expound on it in meetings, but simply respect other's beliefs as theirs.
AA allowed me to confront my problem and showed me a path that I could follow to get sober and so far stay that way. I do not discount other paths, but when I have been curious about those other ways, I have as was previously suggested, not tried to explore them in the AA rooms.
In his celebrated book, 'On Liberty', the English philosopher
John S. Mill argued that silencing an opinion is "a peculiar evil."
If the opinion is right, we are robbed of the "opportunity of
Exchanging error for truth"; and if it's wrong, we are deprived of
A deeper understanding of the truth in its "collision with error."
If we know only our own side of the argument, we hardly know
Even that: it becomes stale, soon learned by rote, untested,
A pallid and lifeless truth.
-- Carl Sagan
Great questions and even better answers and opinions in this thread. I suspect that all those who are writing their thoughts are not doing so with a drink at their elbow.
Cheers,
Jon
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
I was really at a turning point in my life when I started recovery. For me, I needed to stop looking for external controls and needed to take responsibility myself. I was told that I could not recover because I was making life and career plans. I was supposed to let god, or the group or my sponsor or whoever determine my path. For me, that would have led me right back to the gutter. (It actually did.)
I think for people who overcontrol their lives, this is an important step. But I think that the overcontrolers need to give up control and the undercontrollers need to take responsibility.
The important thing is to break habits, find humility, and question one's own assumptions.
/
I think for people who overcontrol their lives, this is an important step. But I think that the overcontrolers need to give up control and the undercontrollers need to take responsibility.
The important thing is to break habits, find humility, and question one's own assumptions.
/
Recoveringed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Thump
Posts: 409
Excellent posts, Bbthumper and Jfangle. Thank you.
I like this very much. I do believe we can do damage if we are preventing thought provoking discussions about recovery (outside of the rooms, that is, as there is a time and a place for everything). We are adults, and individuals at that. If we can't learn to handle discourse, good luck in the real world. I hope we understand each other, but if we don't so be it. As a captain friend of mine tells me, do not navigate through rough waters with scanty information. Perhaps I've taken the meaning in a particular context, but so it goes. Your words and thoughtfulness have been appreciated.
Originally Posted by Jfanagle
In his celebrated book, 'On Liberty', the English philosopher
John S. Mill argued that silencing an opinion is "a peculiar evil."
If the opinion is right, we are robbed of the "opportunity of
Exchanging error for truth"; and if it's wrong, we are deprived of
A deeper understanding of the truth in its "collision with error."
If we know only our own side of the argument, we hardly know
Even that: it becomes stale, soon learned by rote, untested,
A pallid and lifeless truth.
-- Carl Sagan
John S. Mill argued that silencing an opinion is "a peculiar evil."
If the opinion is right, we are robbed of the "opportunity of
Exchanging error for truth"; and if it's wrong, we are deprived of
A deeper understanding of the truth in its "collision with error."
If we know only our own side of the argument, we hardly know
Even that: it becomes stale, soon learned by rote, untested,
A pallid and lifeless truth.
-- Carl Sagan
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
It should also be mentioned that the choice is not "AA" vs. "nothing" or "doing it alone."
Social support is helpful for many of us but AA is not the only way to get that support--in fact, every person on this forum is either giving or receiving social support outside of an AA meeting.
Other factors can also be important in successful recovery. Professional help for example. Exercise. Good nutrition.
To say that the world of options beyond AA amount to "doing it alone" is really inaccurate.
Social support is helpful for many of us but AA is not the only way to get that support--in fact, every person on this forum is either giving or receiving social support outside of an AA meeting.
Other factors can also be important in successful recovery. Professional help for example. Exercise. Good nutrition.
To say that the world of options beyond AA amount to "doing it alone" is really inaccurate.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of the high failure rates and questioning the efficacy of picking the hardest possible way to achieve a desired result. As a practical matter you can lose weight by exercising 4 hours a day or you can adjust your calorie intake to your energy expenditure. Same result, a lot less work. The same concept applies to all addictions, changing the essence of who you are will get you there but is it really necessary? I get your point about the happiness factor, without that you've accomplished nothing. A lot of food for thought.
Grateful AA member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the middle of the woods, NJ
Posts: 567
Originally Posted by bbthumper
THose high failure rates are the result of a combination of folks who try to stay sober on fellowship alone, folks who crap out on their step work or folks who are forced to come to AA before they are ready. The success rate for people who actually work an honest and thorough program is higher than any other treatment to date.
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