keithj

Seems completely counter intuitive doesn't it? It's just born out of experience is all. And only applies in certain situations.

Alcoholics like me can't control their drinking. No way, no how, never. I'll never be able to drink normally. Just not drinking, without taking other steps, is almost assured to fail in the case of someone like me. This is not a theory, but has been proven by experience again and again. Both with myself and with others like me.

So when the choices are to just not drink, which is another attempt at control doomed to failure, or to fully realize that controlling is futile, that realization opens me up to a solution that might work.

It's evident all over the newcomers forum. Alcoholics like me that try to control their drinking (just not drinking) stay sober for anywhere from a couple of days to a few months or even a year. Then, just like tiburon, they fall off the wagon, disappear for a while, and resurface with yet another resolve to not drink. And it goes on for months or years, over and over, never changing. It continues because a hopeless alcoholic like me is covinced that they can control their drinking.

If tiburon, or any other alcoholic like me, can have the realization that they will never control their drinking, they may become willing to try what has worked for others. Otherwise, they keep trying to control the uncontrollable.

The suggestion to keep drinking is a way of telling someone to stop beating their head against the wall and realize that they can't control it. They can't just stop drinking, just like I couldn't.

Not everyone agrees with this thinking, but there it is. It comes from the collective experience of a bunch of recovered alcoholics like me who once spent a lot of time beating their heads against the wall.

bugsworth

Tib...you know Dee is right when he says all of us, no matter how beaten down, have the power to do something. Your life is just waiting for you to live it...what you are doing to yourself is painful to watch. I hope you find the clarity you need to quit drinking once and for all. The choice is yours.

Pinkcuda

It is! But that doesn't mean the first 63,587 tidbits of advise and suggestions weren't showing concern and compassion. This same BS has been going on for too long. Tib comes for advise and then he thumbs his nose at the advise. Then we repeat the cycle when Tib gets kicked in the teeth. Time and time again.
I believe were hugging each other to death in recovery. This attitude of "You keep drinking and I'll keep praying for you" is killing the suffering alcoholic.
The 12 steps is how we got sober and stayed sober. We've told Tib this over and over.
Because telling an Alcoholic to quit drinking is a waste of time if they're not serious. The fact that people are responding at all is still promising.

least

I relapsed too many times to count and the shame I felt from each relapse was killing me, if the alcohol wasn't already killing me. But I'm determined to stay sober this time. I want to be sober more than I want to drink. And I'm staying sober. The shame and guilt and fear are gone. I'm still having trouble dealing with my life, but I'm staying sober anyway, trouble or no trouble. I won't let alcohol kill me. Don't let it kill you either.

bugsworth

Pink I agree that telling an alcoholic to quit drinking is futile if they are not serious and I also agree that many times people are getting hugged to death but that has nothing to do with the suggestion of drinking.

I remember what it was like to drink to pass out...I remember the horrors of my behavior during blackouts...I remember every nasty detail of my addiction to alcohol so for me to suggest that someone in the same situation drink is unfathomable. I understand we are of different mindsets but this just boils down to human compassion.

keithj

Bugsworth,

I too, am of a different mindset than you on this. I've read enough of your posts to disagree with your outlook, but also to respect it. Our respective experience is different and that's OK by me.

What would you have us tell tiburon? He has been trying for a while now to control his drinking. He has been trying to just stop drinking. I see zero compassion in telling him to keep trying the same thing that he continues to fail at. All it does is make him feel like a loser. You just stopped, Bugsworth, why can't he?

I believe that AA has a solution that will absolutely work for him, but that solution requires that he gives up the notion that he can control his drinking. If he can become convinced that attempts to control are getting him nowhere, he has a solution waiting. for him.

I was talking to a woman last night who has been in and out of the rooms of AA for almost 30 years now, never took the 12 steps. Never maintaining any serious sobriety. Back around Christmastime, after another jail stint, she walked into one of the hard core solution based meetings. I gave her a hug and said, "Welcome to the dark side, J." She has completed the steps and her life has changed. She was telling me last night that she never understood that THIS is what recovery was all about. She'd missed it for 30 years because she kept trying to just not drink.

So, what is the compassionate thing for tiburon? Keep trying and maybe you'll get it in 30 years? If you live that long. Or tell him to get a full knowledge of his condition so that he can take the solution offered.

Freedom1990

Quoted from the 1st edition of the Big Book:

bugsworth

Keith, I tried for many years like Tib to control my drinking only to be beat down attempt after attempt. It was only when I wanted to be sober more than I wanted to be drunk that I quit...not a second before. I see no difference between you and I other than the method we got sober. I too have a sure fire way of getting sober...don't put alcohol in your body. You have your methods I have mine and God willing Tib will have his.

Freedom...with all due respect the passage is irrelevant. I believe that Tib is well aware of his condition.

Pinkcuda

And how many years of coddling need to go by before we say "Quit drinking any way you can and call me when you figure it out.
I see the AA recovered telling people all the time that they simply don't have the time to dedicate to someone that isn't honest and sincere. Nothing personal.

bugsworth

I don't coddle Pink...I don't think I ever have. My post are usually straight up and to the point. I saw many people in the rooms go up for their newcomers chip over and over...applause and hugs always followed...what do you call that? The last meeting I attended I did so with my son...it happened to be a chip meeting...a guy went up for his 30 day chip...during his share he stated he had been in the program since 1989...my son turned and looked at me with disbelief....you see he was born in 1989...19 years in the program and the guy was still an active drunk. It seems you can remain active all you want in aa as long as you parrot the party line. Isn't that coddling?

Dee74

I won't answer for anyone else but for me, compassion, understanding and not being judgemental are things I try to live by - I frequently fail, but I try.

It's also got something to do with basic human respect.

I don't know what will get Tib sober - only he knows that, and only he can do the work to get himself there regardless of what I or anyone else think do or say - but I believe he can do it, because I did it.

I've been where Tib is - and it was the positive support and encouragement that I received here in 2007 that in large part helped me to where I am now.

D

Pinkcuda

I didn't specifically mention any names when I said "coddle". In fact I said "We" coddle which can and does include myself.
To answer this question,
I call that weak AA. These people were probably handed a phone list and told to call someone if they ever feel like drinking. Probably told to not drink and go to meetings, probably told to take what you want and leave the rest, probably told not to date for a year, probably told to keep coming back until they finally die and get replaced with another drunk. They were told everything but the truth. They should heve been told that we are here and we got sober and stayed by taking the 12 steps and that's what you're going to do in order to stay sober too because that's what AA is. Let's go for coffee and see what we can do to help.

bugsworth

I call it someone who wants to keep drinking...cut and dry. The message he missed is don't drink.

Dee is right...only Tib can do the work...just like you and I...we just go about things differently.

Freedom1990

Who says you have to 'parrot the party line' to remain active in AA? I'm really confused by your assessment of AA as a whole based on your own particular limited experience.

I thought the only requirement for membership was a desire to stop drinking?

bugsworth

My assesment is based on my time in the rooms...what was going on in my home group, how my sponsor behaved and meetings in general.

During this mans share he said all the things we hear at meetings after someone relapses...I stopped going to as many meetings...I took back my will...yada yada...plenty of head nodding...that's what I mean.

As to the issue of membership you quote the short form...I think there was a thread about that recently...it seems that is not the case.

Freedom1990

I guess my experience in the rooms of AA has been entirely different than yours, Bugsworth.

Have I been around some weak AA? You bet. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water these days.

freya

You know the truth -- and if you can't respect yourself then what does any of the rest of it matter??? You create the lie, you maintain the lie, you "celebrate" the lie -- and you know that whatever, if indeed any, "respect" you get from others is therefore also a lie...Then you come on SR and lie to us because the truth is, knowing your life to be the lie that it is, there is no way in h*ll that you can possibly "feel better" about yourself living in your lie.

And you get ticked off at the people who do the truthful thing and don't treat you or your lie with "respect."

W-H-A-T-E-V-E-R!

As for the meeting-makers-make-it thing: Well, it looks like you should definitely be in position to know a lie when you see one! And the fact is that that statement is not so much a lie as it is "shorthand" for the whole truth...which is: Go to meetings, Trust God, Clean house, Be of Service to Others...but, then again, I think you've pretty clearly established how (un)interested you are in the truth.

So, yeah, I guess you're gonna just keep on living the lie; after all, it's worked so well for you thus far, hasn't it?

freya

stone

I think "tough love" doesn't work until the person has had enough (of drink) and "coddling" makes no difference because if the person is going to drink they are going to, coddling or not...so tough love Vs coddling is a moot point IMO.
No-one gets "hugged to death" because hugging neither stops them nor encourages them. And you can tough love a person all you like, it wont make any difference until they are ready.

I just think something happens, the person has enough, has hit bottom maybe and only then can they recover...the AA thing of telling them to go ahead and drink until they hit bottom makes sense but is also risky. I have heard of people in meetings giving $5 to a guy (to buy drink) to make a point, this strikes me as tasteless and nasty.

stone

Tib, you don't seem to like AA or believe it works yet you are going there lying about your sober time so you can have "respect"?

You had six months? Can we believe that? If it is true then you have achieved something and that is great, you can do it again...and more.

If you don't like AA, stop going?

stone

How is anyone going to believe you and give you respect for your sober time when you are bumming money off them while smelling of beer?

I really should have read the whole thread first.