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Accepting A Dying Alcoholic-Yes Me

Old 06-11-2009, 03:37 PM
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Bugsworth,

I'm really not trying to stir it up here. Just trying to understand. It's starting to go back and forth a bit, so I want to be clear about that.

Originally Posted by bugsworth View Post
I call it someone who wants to keep drinking...cut and dry. The message he missed is don't drink.
I'm still confused about how you would help this person. While I agree with you that the willingness has to be there, I think there is more to it. Without the willingness to want to be sober, a person will neither quit drinking nor will they work AA's 12 steps. Trying to persuade them is probably a waste of time. We're agreed on that. Maybe Tiburon falls into the category of doesn't really want to get sober, so we agree that we can't do much.

But, do you think it's just as simple as when you want to quit, you'll quit? Does it just boil down to, when you're ready, you'll quit? So really, there is nothing we can do? So all these people that post on the newcomers forum and end up relapsing month after month just really don't want to quit? I know you didn't say that directly, but what is it? Why can't those folks stay sober?

Why couldn't the AA founders stay sober? As I read their accounts, they really wanted to get sober. They were pretty sure that they were faced with death or lock up. And they'd grasp a little white knuckle time, and then be drunk again. Just like the folks that post here.

In my experience with AA, and I admit that's a small subset of the alcoholic population, those who work the steps have a life changing tranformation and they stay sober. Those who do not generally do what I see on the forums here. A few months followed by a still worse relapse.

I'm trying to understand but I'm missing it. Just don't drink. How do you help anybody with that?
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Old 06-11-2009, 03:46 PM
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I think they all want to quit...just like I did years before I did...I just wasn't willing to sit in the initial pains of recovery. Getting sober is hard work and scary...I knew what alcohol did for me...I was afraid of life without it...I had to move thru the pain...just like you did, just like Tib and anyone else will have to do.

Plenty of the founders of which you speak didn't stay sober...why is that?
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bugsworth View Post
Plenty of the founders of which you speak didn't stay sober...why is that?
I really don't know what percentage of the first 100 (or more historicaly accurate 75 or so) stayed sober long term. I know Hank P. went back out, and I think the documented Cleveland members had a very high success rate. But I really don't know. I'm basing the success of AA by those with whom I have personal contact. Those who thoroughly take the steps stay sober. Those who don't, generally don't, although I see some that do.

But can you answer my question about how do you help those people? Is that the best we can do, just tell them don't drink and let them figure it out?

Dunno. I think we can do better. If all we, as recovered persons, can offer someone is don't drink and figure it out, we have absolutely no need for treatment centers, AA, or this forum. Good luck everyone, you're on your own.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:16 PM
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I refuse to lie to people and tell them what God will do for them if they follow some set of instructions set forth by the Oxford group and adopted by aa. People need to hear the truth...they are not powerless to help themselves. The biggest and most damaging lie of them all. Active addiction mimics the feelings of hopelessness but feelings are not facts. Supports groups like SR are an amazing tool for recovery...reading everything you can about addiction helps also...but bottom line again is the desire not to drink needs to be stronger than the desire to drink...each and everytime.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:27 PM
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I refuse to lie to people and tell them what God will do for them if they follow some set of instructions set forth by the Oxford group and adopted by aa.
Pretty arrogant statement if you were to ask me. Next do we go to the Churches and tell them that God is not the answer to a better life and they're believing something that isn't true just to make it seem that way?
The truth only carries so much weight. What I believe to be the truth matters more. If we have "Come to believe" whether it be true or not, and it's worked for millions, who are you to say?
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:36 PM
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Believe whatever you want Pink and I will do the same. If you view my refusal to lie to sick people as arrogance than so be it.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:29 PM
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What makes an alkie stop?

I am with Bugs, in that I don't believe "God" intervenes because we ask "him".

Atheists can work the program, Buddhists already agree with the program, "relieve me from the bondage of self" is Buddhism.

The BB assumes you have no HP, it even says the purpose of this book is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself. Well, what if you are already familiar with a power greater than yourself?
Then the language may well go against what you already believe.

I started to see that the book was laying out basic principles for spiritual growth
that is what we are being asked to do, grow along spiritual lines, I like that, I can embrace it.
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:36 PM
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Non AAers like Bugs and I share our experience...thats all any of us - AA or not, can do.

I like to think what I help posts someone, otherwise I wouldn't be here every day - but I also know, from experience, that what I say may never reach it's intended target, and it's taken me 2 years to accept that.

As for passing judgement on others - I guess I and Tib were the only two drunks who ever bummed. True I didn't do it at AA but only cos I never thought of it.

I also lied cheated and stole to get my fix. I was a prince among men.

I've said this before, but I'm glad I didn't get here any earlier or my reputation would be a lot different.

I'll never condone any non recovery behaviour on Tibs part or anyone elses - but I hope I'll always be open to posting to him, and anyone else, who wants my constructive input.

The only difference between me and Tiburon is I'm in recovery.
All lot of people at SR seem to have short memories at the moment.

This thread seems to be another washout.
Good luck Tib - like I said way back - you had 6 months - you can do it again.

D
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Old 06-11-2009, 06:04 PM
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I'll never condone any non recovery behaviour on Tibs part or anyone elses - but I hope I'll always be open to posting to him, and anyone else, who wants my constructive input.

What is there apart from AA?

Really? Apart from Really want it?

Dee, what is your input?
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Old 06-11-2009, 06:16 PM
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LOL you've been here longer than I have - you should be able to tell me.

D
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Old 06-11-2009, 06:24 PM
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Totally agree...so why can't we use a doorknob?

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda View Post
Pretty arrogant statement if you were to ask me. Next do we go to the Churches and tell them that God is not the answer to a better life and they're believing something that isn't true just to make it seem that way?
The truth only carries so much weight. What I believe to be the truth matters more. If we have "Come to believe" whether it be true or not, and it's worked for millions, who are you to say?
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Old 06-11-2009, 07:57 PM
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Thanks for some of the responses. Of course you "tough love" approach people will be put on ignore. I don't need to feel worse than I already do. That's why I feel it better to lie about ones sobriety date. The thing is how would anyone know? I suppose the 2 meetings that I showed up drunk as a skunk looking for handouts would have to be excluded.


tib
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FightingIrish View Post
Totally agree...so why can't we use a doorknob?
OK you're right! If anyone feels compelled to actually believe that a doorknob can be a Higher Power than yourselves, knock yourselves out.
My thinking is that If AA is going to work for me, I must believe what the book says 100% and it specifically mentions "God"
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:39 PM
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Hey tib,

I'm glad your posting again after your recent bender...can't do much else except pick up the pieces and start again.

Just a few thoughts:

- Enough with the "dying" business. Yeah, we are all going to die. If I started and continued drinking, I probably won't die from it - at least not for a few years anyway. I do know that I will guarantee myself a really miserable life. Nothing terribly dramatic about it.

- Put honesty before pride. I am getting to the point where I really don't care about what other people think of me. I am living a sober life and trying to be good to other people. What difference does it make what certain people in AA (or outside of AA for that matter) think of me? But I can't live a lie - too stressful & demoralizing and it goes against what I am trying to do with my life.

-Maybe AA just isn't for you. I have been an AA member for 17 months and there are still some aspects of the program I have difficulties with. Maybe it will come in time, maybe it won't. I do know that I can't make myself believe something if in reality I simply don't. "Forcing a square peg in a round hole" comes to mind. For me anyway, "fake it till I make it" is only fooling myself.

-Have you considered/tried other options? Counselling? Religion? Other available recovery programs? My own recovery, while mainly AA, also includes the support of non-AA family & friends, spiritual teachings, journaling, and of course SR. I was also in counselling for a while and it helped. Maybe give some thought to what you can do different this time.

Best wishes to ya. This may very well be the last time you ever have to drink.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:25 PM
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Well, this is some thread. I can see there are two camps here - the tough love camp and the compassion camp. Me, I prefer the compassion camp. I see little value in slamming someone who is already down. It's a tough place to be in to drink and not want to drink. It's a long and hard road. I know tough love doesn't work for me and never will. If anything, it sends me to the wine aisle. To me tough love means slamming someone who is already down.

Tib, hang in there. Take what you need in this thread and leave the rest.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:29 PM
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Just want to make this clear too....

I don't agree with Tib lying about his sober time.At all.I get the way he sees people earning respect in AA for their 'time' but I still think it's wrong to lie.And the self pity?Well-like this is new to any of us?

Weren't we all like this once and some of us still are that self absorbed.Some here have entire threads dedicated to their every thought/move and I find it self indulgent and unhealthy.It's so intrinsic in alcoholics that we're THAT special, THAT important when in fact?We're so not.We are NOT the center of the universe and the sooner we realise that the better.

I don't care what time you got up in the morning, the housework you did or whether you did-basically-what every other human being on the planet has to do because theyre *gasp* ADULTS!I despair imaging what these people would be like if they had to take care of anything other than their pet gerbil or cat.My god.Grow UP! And it's just SO much worse when we see it pandered to here.You get a medal for dressing yourself and showing up at the computer?Welcome to being 5 years old.Good grief!

I have a lot of respect for AA even if I'm not a part of it.It saved my fathers life.And some of my friends.

What I'm appalled by is how easy it was to so many of you to tell Tib what was wrong with him/what he needed to apparently do....Do you really think he's not aware of what's wrong with him?Seriously?!We carry our shame like a banner....

I thought taking other's inventories wasn't such a good idea?But it seems it's okay here for some reason?

I'm not asking anyone here to enable him?I'm the last person who enables round here.....but crucifying him seemed a little unfair also.

That's all.

Last edited by Jules62; 06-11-2009 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tiburon88 View Post
Thanks for some of the responses. Of course you "tough love" approach people will be put on ignore. I don't need to feel worse than I already do. That's why I feel it better to lie about ones sobriety date. The thing is how would anyone know? I suppose the 2 meetings that I showed up drunk as a skunk looking for handouts would have to be excluded.


tib
Hi Tib
The only person that matters to your recovery would know...You. What anyone else including me thinks shouldn't matter. You are not thinking of getting sober for someone else are you?
I wish you all the best as you plan YOUR own path.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tiburon88 View Post
Thanks for some of the responses. Of course you "tough love" approach people will be put on ignore. I don't need to feel worse than I already do. That's why I feel it better to lie about ones sobriety date. The thing is how would anyone know? I suppose the 2 meetings that I showed up drunk as a skunk looking for handouts would have to be excluded.


tib
Yup, I think those two meetings might be a tipoff. Having said this, I view it this way. Anyone who would judge me for drinking again I don't want to know - don't want those kind of people in my life. The people who won't judge you and are supportive are the people you might want to know.

I also think when people are authentic, they draw to themselves the best people for them. The others well, best to leave them behind.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:52 PM
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drinking and lying about your sobriety date.It was your s.d now its not ,pick yourself up for your own sake, and maybe you and your son will benefit otherwise your drinking will leave your child alone. One moment at a time for you.I hope god blesses you , because you are damming yourself to an early grave
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jules62 View Post

I thought taking other's inventories wasn't such a good idea.
so you are familiar with the concept, then, of taking others' inventories, and how doing so can be a hindrance to one's recovery?
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