Mark75

That's good... Makes a lot of sense... So how low a person's "bottom" is not an indicator of alcoholic vs. hard drinker?

Mark

McGowdog

Bingo! I'd forgot about that point. I'm not all edumacated on this whole "bottom" concept. I think it's a mere concept. Your bottom is an elevator heading down.

This "Last house on the block" is a mind-trip that some guys use to avoid doing their first step; or they're just not like me.

In other words, perhaps this bottom is an internal condition, not an external one. These guys that sit back and tell their war stories (not how they drink, but all the drama they encountered) and say, "Now that I'm sober..." contradict themselves by saying "This is the last house on the block" and then proceed to tell you how they drank through all these bottoms."

Where does it stop? For hard drinkers, it stops with a sufficient reason. For the alcoholic, it don't.

I gauge a potential alcoholic's bottom by their willingness to follow directions and do steps.

:rotfxko

Some of us have become such good salesman, that perhaps we've convinced some non-alkies... or at least unwilling alkies to come into these rooms and drink some coffee.

Ever seen some guys who go to the club and drink coffee and not go into the meeting? What are THEY doing there? At York Street, they call it "Dead Pe%$er Row."

Mark75

I'm tryin' to get the heck out my office and on my bike for a ride, but your distracting me!!! I guess you sayin' it in a way that I'm gettin' it!

Mark

keithj

Oooh, nail on the head right there.

McGowdog

Well I've been taught this... time and time again. Deep down, I think we all know this.

But it's such a paradox, that we don't believe it.

I really think the whole secret to AA... if there was one... is the ability to talk to another drunk about the simple otherwise sometimes boring details of how you drink... without all the fluff... and it's in the small details... that we get those... AH HA! moments and start to identify.

There is much depth and beauty in the 1st Step! For an alcoholic who wants to do the AA thing or is lucky enough to get past the misconceptions and garbage about it, it's our path to God.

And now I see guys leading treatment center meetings in Southern Colorado saying, "Don't discuss the specifics about how much you drank or what you drank or the drugs you took... just discuss in a general way what got you here."

SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING??????????!!!!!!!!! DON'T TELL THE TRUTH?????????

WHAT THE HECK ELSE DO I REALLY KNOW BESIDES THAT????????????

Mark75

2 months in rehab, many thousands of dollars, and never had AH HA moments like I've been having here... maybe, partly, I am just ready to listen.

So... I have on my expensive Pearl Izumi bike jersey that has the Squatters Peloton Pale Ale logo sublimated on the front and back... and I don't even want one right now... I'M GOIN' RIDIN"

Mark

bugsworth

I agree with McGowdog that bottoms are internal and so is recovery. To define the problem by it's solution seems problematic as there are potentially more than one solution to a problem. In that same vein it is IMO dangerous to pass along opinion as a truism. This thread leads people to believe that if one quit drinking by any other methods than the 12 step approach then they were not alcoholic to begin with. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do know from my experience that there was a time I was a hard drinker...the creature I became at the end was not only alcoholic but a dead woman walking.

McGowdog

Well thank you, but I disagree with what's bolded. But to say, "Nothing could be further from the truth." is also and just as much a falsehood. It is possible that they are not an alcoholic and quit by some other means, like just stopped on their own or moderated their drinking. I could do the whole "logic" sequence here, but since Flutter didn't like it, I'll spare you.

In fact, just for kicks, I'm gonna go into that AA book and start digging out some of the methods that potential hard drinkers and non-alkies could try besides the AA approach. They got a whole bunch of neat stuff in there. I'd imagine some of these non-AAers may be using one of our splinter techniques.

Recognize!**

Drama. It sounds good to some, I'm sure. But not useful 1st Step material for me. It's also embellished.

**

Here's a couple of those other things the book mentions:

* Drinking only beer
* Limiting the number of drinks
* never drinking alone
* never drinking in the morning
* drinking only at home
* never having it in the house
* never drinking during business hours
* drinking only at parties
* switching from scotch to brandy
* drinking only natural wines
* agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job
* taking a trip/not taking a trip
* swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath)
* taking more physical excercise
* reading inspirational books
* going to health farms and sanitariums
* accepting voluntary commitment to asylu... treatment centers
* etc

I do believe none of these works for the alky, according to that book. Definitely don't work for me.

So those alternative methods others talk about are just add to the list items. For me! Because I'm not willing to bet my life on what might not work for me.

bugsworth

What is it that you bolded that you disagree with?

FightingIrish

OK, so a person who got sober through non-AA means could still be a real alcoholic. Makes sense.

McGowdog

That "they were not alcoholic to begin with".

I think the mere problem with all of this is the mere word "alcoholic". It's not a simple word. It's like saying snow to an eskimo, or Love to God, or pills to Paula, or children to Angelina, or trees to a dog, or blood to a mosquito, or toy to a baby, or candy to a child, or...

bugsworth

McGowdog...Just so I can clarify...you do believe that real alcoholics can and do recover without aa/12 steps?

I think the word is as complicated as you make it...it's pretty cut and dry for me.

McGowdog

Well yes, I've heard they do. Boy, have I ever. They recover all the time on the www, but I've not met too many in person.

And no, the word is NOT cut and dry for most. The book used 54+ pages trying to describe it.

I'm quite sure there are many other paths. Some may be very successful, but that will be the day judges and Insurance Companies start sending people to those programs. I hear a lot of smack on the www about them, but where the rubber meets the road, I'm not seeing it.

I've got something that works fantastic and I know why many struggle with AA because they're not being shown it and their not doing it, so why would there be any other ways?

What's more basic than one drunk finding another drunk to try to help in order to stay sober?

Show me the better way. I'm willing to open my mind and look at them.

Meanwhile, I'll be hanging out over in the 12 Step sub-forums.

Dee74

If I'm ever in Colorado I'll look you up, McG

D

Bamboozle

This is not about a "better" way.

SR is a community of people coming together for support and to share experiences. My way isn't better than anyone else's way...just different.


I'm sure some would judge me and say I'm not a "real" alcoholic...whatever that's supposed to mean (I've yet to meet a "fake" alcoholic here, btw).

My alcoholism, whether real or fake, will kill me. I could argue this until the cows come home...the fact is that alcohol + Bam = unmanageable life.

bugsworth

I'm not here to show you another way...your path is clear. I am here however to offer hope to others that wish to recover without aa.

People like myself who recover without 12 step dogma are not mythical creatures...you are surrounded by them here at SR. You've even stated you met some...I appreciate that you acknowledged the truth in this situation.

gravity

My mom and her four brothers were all hard-core alcoholics (street people).

Two of my uncles recovered through AA.
My mom and another uncle recovered through Native spirituality (they are recognized leaders & Elders).
One uncle died an alcoholic death.

There are other ways.

Bottom line: I don't care how people quit. Just get help.

McGowdog

"Fake", "dogma", "street people"... wow, I just picked up some new lingo.

bugsworth

Stay open minded McGowdog and see what you can learn!

keithj

Bugsworth,

At the end of the day, I think those of us that have recovered all aim to help others recover. I didn't have a preference of method or style. It wasn't like I stood back one day looking at the menu of recovery methods and selected AA as my choice. At the time, I would have much preferred a non-higher power way of doing this. I think that the idea that people have the luxury of deciding what kind of recovery they want is misguided. Some key components of recovery (and I mean secular stuff too, I'd been through a few treatment programs prior to AA) are willingness, dedication, determination, desire.

I guess my point is that I didn't wish for a particular kind of recovery. I just really wanted to recover, and AA showed me the way. Choosing what type of recovery experience I have already gets me in the business of thinking I'm in control of my alcoholism. Maybe not the best mindset with which to begin recovery.