McGowdog

I'd ask you to consider something. Don't take neither of them as the final word. In the BB, they say they don't think an alky can quit for something like a year. I'd agree that most can't I never could. In fact, when I drank again, it was as if nothing ever happened. It was as if I was putting my hand on a hot stove that I'd already been burned on and I said, "Watch this. It won't even burn me." TSSSSSSSSST Ouch!

And I do this over and over again. I could never tell when drink day would come either. Sometimes it was out of the blue. I didn't put booze in my body for something like a year when I wrecked my 1st car and got arrested for DUI. I was playing this game called passout and I'm so very good at that game. Drinking games for an alcoholic like me or maybe even some hard drinkers is like having a dog run the barbeque. I was fading out of a blackout and realized I was the only one on the road, light was green, 3 am, and I was trying to turn onto Broadway from Conifer at about 50 mph. I tapped on the brakes and wound up on the median. I wasn't hurt nor did I kill anybody, but my tire had peeled off the rim. I couldn't move the car any further. Some nice policemen assisted me to detox and didn't even handcuff me. I felt buzzed and wasn't too scared, but boy I could sure use a drink. So after that treatment center stint, I quit drinking booze for a year. I shacked up with this gal I met in detox. I was 18 and she was 26, had a Camaro, and the Playboy Channel. It was perfect. I smoked all her ex-boyfriend's weed and she went back to drinking. I left her bedroom about 4 months later, went back to college, and proceeded to do coke, crank, smoke weed, and really loved shrooms and vitamin A. I loved to trip! After about a year, I decided I wasn't being all I could be, so I decided to try some controlled drinking. Within 2 weeks, I was at an all night party at Barbour Ponds near Longmont and the next morning, the cops came and I boogied. I tried to outrun the cops in my Nova and there I was, on a dirt road trying to take a curve at about 50, wrecked my car into a ditch and sat there and cried. I really knew I was an ef-up! I hated me. Few days later, I healed up and was back to drinkin' and that binge lasted through the summer.

And it just goes on and on and on. I could put the drugs down, but booze and me seem to have a really special relationship. I had two DUIs inside of 19. I've not got one since then, but it's not just about the DUIs. At very least, I should do whatever it takes to not drink.

I'm a romp and stomp and do something kind of guy and when you put booze in me, I get rowdy.

So... you can look at what happens once you put booze in your body based on a prior experience. You don't have to drink again to determine if you're alky. Even if you're not, you could die before your time! So at very least, do what you gotta do! For me, it's seek God. It's follow a few simple rules. It's do steps. It's try to set a good example with my actions and behavior and help others that yeah, are like me.

But I show them what I do/did, not tell them what to do.

Maybe you're not an alcoholic is a tool! I use it every year. It points me towards God.

Yeah, I figured as much. We've already had this discussion. Now this is twice. You and I are different and that's fine.

Mark75

I have seen some threads here lately about real alcoholic, hard drinker, etc... I have read the afore mentioned BB sections many times...

I think these topics are relevant to the OP...

So, practically speaking, what difference does it make ultimately..., alcohol dependence, hard drinker, problem drinker or "real alcoholic" (big book definition)... 12 steps seem to help them all, ..... why do some feel so strongly about separating these types of drinkers out?... Did the BB state that only one type of drinker can be helped by AA?.... I am honestly asking, because, I think, it may in fact matter... but I'm interested in why some of you folks do...

Mark

McGowdog

This is a gr8 question and deserves it's own thread.

I don't make any distinction in the meeting itself. I'm not there in AA to sort them out unless we're sitting with a new guy in an IHOP or a Village Inn or a Denny's and talking to the new man about his drinking. We would like to help him get clear on if he's an alcoholic or not and if he wants to do something about it.

If he's not convinced himself or not sure, but we don't think he's alky, we'll be open minded about it and ask him to be as well. We recommend him to get help getting off the booze, hospitalization if necessary, clear his head. Then get a book and read it and come to meetings. If he wants a sponsor or to do steps, we'll gladly take him through. If he's hesitant, we inform him of other meetings as well.

In the book it says, "We don't like to label another an alcoholic" or something to that effect. Give them the dignity to find out for themselves! Then if they are, we ask a question; Do you want to do something about it? In fact, when it comes to the booze, we just usually ask in the beginning, "Do you think you have a problem with booze?" If they say yes, and yes, we tell them what we did and they're free to join us. But we always keep the ball in his/her court. We do NOT take responsibility for them.

I think these 12 steps would be helpful for any and everybody, and even see evidence of that intent in the Original Manuscript where it says something to the effect "We tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics"...

But, they changed that line for some reason. Come on in and do what we do. But if you don't need to do what we do to stay sober, we're not interested in your methods whatsoever.

But you "others who don't need AA or the Book or God or etc., to get sober" are very vocal and love to tell us what we're doing wrong.

So it works both ways. It's a two way street with plenty of traffic.

keithj

"We think that our way of living has its advantages for all." Or something like that is the BB take on it.

So, the AA way of life can probably benefit a lot of people. Drinkers and non-drinkers and alcoholics. It's full of spritual principles and altruism, and selflessness and usefullness to others. Not bad things for any of us regardless of our drinking.

All this disctinction about what type of drinker comes about when determining what is required for sobriety. It was found through much hard won experience, that certain types (what the BB calls real alcoholics and what is described in the Dr.'s Opinion) did not respond to other treatments. Silkworth treated a lot of alcoholics. His observations concluded that these types were doomed, that they would have to be locked up or die. These types did not recover without a complete psychic change or a spiritual awakening.

There's the difference. It's not divisive, it's just the truth. A spiritual program may benefit most everyone, but it is not required for many. The last thing I wanted was spirituality or anyhting to do with a god in whom I adamantly did not believe. It was only when nothing else worked for me that I became willing to try and see some hope in a spiritual solution.

I say, if you don't need a spiritual solution, then don't bother with it. You might be missing something out of life, but who cares? I have no desire to tell people how they should live. But, experience with folks that exhibit the same physical craving and mental obsession with booze that I did, shows that most will not be able to stay sober without that spiritual solution. I see it all the time, Mark, that passing parade of real hard core drinkers that come in and out of the rooms of AA year after year, never seeking spiritual help and never getting sober.

Mark75

Thanx Keith, and McGowdog. The more I read and study the Big Book and learn from others, the more I am blown away by what is written there. What is amazing, Is that it isn't really complicated, until I make it that way.



Anyway, I guess when I read these threads, there is always this voice in the back of my head, welllll.... are you a real alcoholic or a problem drinker? uh? uh? well, which is it......Makes me freakin' crazy..... The only way for me to shut that voice up is go back to the 1st step... 2nd and 3rd... write some more of the 4th.... keep going to meetings, clean up afterward if needed and quit worrying about it... AA helps me a lot, that much I know.

Mark

DaveR1988

Yeah, I agree.

bugsworth

Keith...I agree that altruism, selflessness and usefulness to others is a wonderful way to live. As far as what you believe to be the truth is just as you say...an opinion...the Dr's opinion. I too watched many people come in and out of the rooms...one thing they all had in common is that they drank. I would like to say that there are many people who reject aa as a recovery plan but that does not mean they reject God.

flutter

Yeah.. thanks for pointing that out Rob.

Well, as helpful as this probably is to the OP, I think what got everyone seperated on some things here is that the original question itself includes both the terms 'drinking problem' and 'alcoholic', likely unknowingly put together but seen by some people as worlds apart.

My point was not that either are the same or even related.. My attempt was to answer the part of the question that I have an opinion on.

And McGow thank you for trying your hardest to 'logic it out' for me. I must really be wearing my stupid had today to need all this help! heh.

Good grief!

Some of us are going to disagree on the term and definition of alcoholic, the ever dreaded "real" alcoholic, and AA and lack thereof. I mean really.. again?

I try my HARDEST to respect everyone and our diversity of ideas. Even those who I think are going about EVERYTHING wrong and destructively and arrogantly. I sit on my hands and watch the attacks happen. But when the poo flinging happens as I knew it inevitably does, I finally and again question whether or not we really are here for each other, and not just an agenda, or continued selfishness.

OP, You asked a good question, and it got hijacked, and that sucks.

Carry on.

Mark75

Sorry if I hijacked the thread, didn't mean to... I guess I just jumped from "If I think I have a problem Do I ? to... Am I an alcoholic? to.... Am I a real alcoholic? to... How does that matter, really... I got a little carried away there.

Thanx flutter

Mark

MissFixit

Hi Rainbow,

I probably shouldn't post here, but this thread is a little too tempting.

I am not an alcoholic. I dated an alcoholic for several years. Had never been around one until him...and we were even friends for 7+ years before dating and I never knew about his problems.

Once we identified his problems he sought rehab, AA and counseling following 3 DUIs, fights, not paying bills, etc, he said to me that he was an alcoholic and would never drink again. He admitted to close friends that he was an A. Fast forward to this past summer. He met someone and began openly drinking with her around town. Friends asked him about it and he apparently is no longer and alcoholic. It is a miracle and he is cured!

So, is he no longer an A? No.

I quit drinking to be supportive of his abstinence and it was no big deal for me. After seeing the ravages of his alcoholism up close and personal, although we are no longer together I rarely drink. However, when he was initially going through rehab I questioned my drinking. I was never a heavy drinker, but as it was the topic of life for a while I thought about myself and my relationship with booze. I was never a regular drinker, it never impacted my life and when I quit for L it was easy.

To answer the question, given my experience with an A, I questioned my relationship with alcohol. However, I am not an A.

Miss

flutter

nah cub not you, not anyone specifically at all!.. just in general.. and just my observation. kKnda defeats any helpful purpose when it happens..

Pinkcuda

It's is nice to know what an alcoholic is before we ask a question like the OP. Americas Frat Houses are full of young men that drink more than most alcoholics I've met in AA. It doesn't mean anything. Are they "Problem Drinkers"? I don't know. Define "Problem". Do they drink more than society deems "acceptable"? Probably, but society also worships "American Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars" so who cares what "Society thinks"
Are they "Alcoholic"? I don't know. I doubt it though. Most of them graduate and live successful lives and hold jobs and have their kids and a house in the burbs. All while enjoying their 2-3 drinks a week. That's something an "Alcoholic" can't do.

Pinkcuda

I had to cut that thread short. Wife just came home and
I'll be back.

Mark75

OMG... what is that smiley??, Fan, brown thing hitting it.... spraying all over bystander... Ohhhhh, I get it...

McGowdog

Well? I really wasn't trying hard at all with the logic. I thought the logic was pretty good though. You got offended by it? Why?

Your logic works good too, btw; Someone thinks they have an alcohol problem = they probably do

I'd say that's true. I agree with that. Do they need a Spiritual Awakening to recover from alcohol? Not all of us some say.

Believe me Flutter, I think you have a valid solution. If someone came my way and didn't want what AA had to offer, I'd send them your way. I really would.

But I've seen your thoughts and experiences on recovery and I just am not the same way as you.

I thought the logic thing was about as impersonal and objective as it got.

If you want to comment that what I'm saying is wrong or digging up debate or selfishness, that's your business.

But I'm trying really hard to show what I've learned in AA and in that book. Even though I've learned a lot in that book, there's tons more to learn and experiences to relate to. My mind is like a steel sieve. It's slow to learn and quick to forget.

Pink, where'd you get that icon?

Rainbowgirl128

I ask because I have read that statement many times here on SR. I wanted to hear if it is a common consensus that anybody who ponders whether they are an alcoholic will turn out to be one. Also, because a friend from college has said to me more than once "Sometimes I wonder if I am an alcoholic." He also has a hard time stopping once he starts drinking and he seems kind of obsessed with it. Thats not my fish to fry right now though; I need to concentrate on myself.

Sorry to start up the debate about heavy drinker v. alcoholic. In my mind, the difference between the two is that the alcoholic suffers adverse consequences from his drinking while the heavy drinker does not.

McGowdog

...and the beat goes on...

Mark75

When I was in rehab there was a professional who had to be there for 5 days to be "evaluated" so she could keep her license. She was a mother of two little kids, and it tore her up to be there.

She marked yes to the question that she had a DUI on her license renewal application. She had a little too much wine at a christmas party she threw for her staff.... Got nabbed at a checkpoint. That was probably the only time she drank alcohol the whole year...

Those were negative consequences... She was not even a heavy drinker.

Rainbow, I only use this as an example... all drinkers can experience adverse consequences... So really, how do you say who is and who isn't??

Mark

meditation

I agree that the problem is around not being able to stop. I think that a person could get a DUI and still not be an alcoholic. Maybe not the best common sense but I knew tons of people in rehab that weren't true alcoholics but were doing the time to escape the jail.

I can't take one pill and be happy I have to have about 3 or more and then I want it all the time. I would not stop as long as the supply was around. But I have stopped when the supply ran out and waited till the next script refill. So I feel like I had no control as long as they were around but I was not actively hunting up a connection . I think I had a bad problem but if it wasn't around I would not use. Does that make me an addict? I sometimes wonder.
Very interesting question. I think only the person can truly define it. A doctor or drug counselor can label it but it may not be that person's real truth. I think some of us are borderline and some of us are truely alcoholics and addicts.

Rainbowgirl128

sorry i should have been more clear. im not talking about a one time thing where you drink 2 glasses of wine and get behind the wheel and have the unfortunate luck of getting pulled over. i thought it was obvious we were talking about a pattern of repetitive behavior here. given that assumption, i think alcoholics repetitively find themselves suffering negative consequences in their lives because of alcohol. whether it be missing work, blacking out, changing personality, or whatever happens that makes the alcoholic acutely aware of his condition.

i dont think heavy drinkers obsess about it because they dont have the same consequences. maybe thats because they know when to stop and have control over it. so they can drink a few drinks every night, stop, go to sleep, and not regret anything in the morning. or they can "party" on the weekends and have fun without thinking about it with shame come monday. my dad drinks what i consider "heavily" - he has probably 5 or 6 drinks between the time he gets home from work until the time he goes to sleep. ive never seen him drunk and his professional or personal life has not been affected by the alcohol he consumes at night. its a drink after work, a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, and maybe a glass after dinner. some would say that is heavy consumption and maybe some would call him an "alcoholic" but that label would be meaningless because alcohol has not negatively impacted his life.

i think heavy or recreational drinkers respond differently to alcohol than alcoholics do. it is what it is.