meditation

I guess I assumed that this was a rhetorical question. But then again I am not an alcoholic or even a drinker so what do I know. I know about opiates and I should have not responded.

I don't have a clue why someone would want to drink. It seriously gives me headaches and hangovers I would rather do without. To me though needing a drink over wanting a drink would define it if I transfer the substance to pills. If I need the pill to overcome an emotion or subdue something or not deal with something or I need a pill to not have withdrawls I assume I am having problems. I can relate to that. I have been in enough AA meetings to know people drink because they don't want to feel.

flutter

I absolutely wasn't saying anything about you being wrong, or selfish or any of that. You and I have been down our "differences road" before, and I absolutely respect the strength and conviction you have for what you believe. I know we think different about recovery, and I think that's a good thing, because like you have said that youve been shown here.. there isn't only one way.

I also know that you have had some experiences on here so far that rattle that steel sieve of yours, and I appreciate your willingness to learn about other peoples' thoughts and perspectives. We all feel that we have some great tools to share, and between all of us, if it helps just one more person, then that is fabulous.

FightingIrish

It's amazing to me how so much of what was in the Big Book seemed uncontroversial to me until I started to talk with other people. I spent my first few months thinking, "wow, you can actually have an argument/make a kerfuffle about that?"

The comparison to politics is apt - when I hear a certain phrasing or expression, I think, "oh, he's one of those people."

When I read most of this stuff, it's the truth, but when it is filtered through certain people, it sounds completely disagreeable.

Just an observation.

M

Pinkcuda

Both suffer consequences. The differences it that a heavy drinker can control his drinking given the right set of circumstances. An alcoholic can never under any circumstances control his drinking with any sense of regularity.

Don't be sorry to start a debate. People need to know what an alcoholic is. I was done with the reprecussions of DUI number 3 and I still had no idea what an alcoholic was. I seriously thought I was just an undisciplined drinker and honestly thought I was still in control. Nobody ever sat me down and explained what an alcoholic was and what it meant to suffer from this illness. Doesn't mean that I would have listened but I was drunk every day for 20 more years. Is it possible that had I known what an alcoholic was I might have not been delusional in thinking I could ever control my drinking for two more decades? Who knows?

McGowdog

Really? What if they know how to get and stay sober?

I don't care who says what, or how they say it. We are all different, but we are also all human and on this planet together.

I'm not ashamed of AA nor am I ashamed of being a part of it. The AA that I first came into and the AA that I found are vastly different. That's unfortunate. It shouldn't be that way. Not really. AA stands for Alcoholics Anonymous which is a book that serves as AA's reference.

It took me a long time to find AA in AA. Doesn't that sound ridiculous? It does to me. But I've seen AA work just as simply laid out in the book and it's awesome. I don't care how old some of those people are, but the ones who still do steps out of the book amaze me and I will always follow that until I die.

I don't mean to sound theatrical here, but my only motive is to get recovered and transmit what I found to those willing. I've seen a lot of garbage on the www about this program and I've seen it picked apart and ridiculed and those same people mock the AA program for some pathetic recovery rate. I've heard 5% and that's regardless of whether you do AA or something else. That's complete bull and I can prove it. But not many will listen nor will they even want to consider that possibly, when AAs done correctly, has a recovery rate like they had back in the 30s and 40s.

I'm gonna read some birthdates off for a group in Denver Colorado; granted, some of these folks are dead now, God rest their souls;

6/1/59
7/2/64
3/1/66
6/1/67
1/1/71
5/7/72
2/7/72
10/18/74
5/30/75
2/22/76
4/3/77
12/1/77
5/19/78
12/1/78
1/2/79
1/3/79
3/11/79
7/20/79
9/3/79
2/28/80
4/1/80
10/17/80
2/24/81
6/1/81
8/4/81
11/8/81
3/11/82
6/29/82
8/10/82
10/4/82
12/27/82
3/10/83
5/15/83
11/28/83
4/14/84
6/8/84
8/10/84
1/5/85
2/18/85
7/31/85
10/10/85
11/24/85
10/19/86
10/31/86
8/25/86
11/6/87
12/20/87
1/1/88
5/9/88
10/23/88
2/8/89
7/31/89
9/13/89
9/30/89
2/2/90
6/2/90
8/1/91
2/21/91
3/3/91
8/20/91
3/30/92
4/28/92
11/23/92
3/6/94
6/6/95
10/19/95
6/16/96
4/21/96
8/17/96
9/14/96
11/7/96
11/26/96
3/18/97
5/20/97
1/4/98
2/7/98
4/5/98
9/10/98

I don't have the rest of the list.

This is one very strong Closed AA group in Denver Colorado. They talk about booze alot! They talk about God a lot! They don't talk about the book. They read a small passage out of it and discuss their recent experience out of it. They pray. They meditate. They do steps.

They are pillars of their community. I know that for a fact. Their meetings have so much power and heat, it scares me. At the same time, it's so warm and real.

There methods have changed zip-zero in the last 12 years that I've observed them and been with them.

This is AA, folks. And it works.

jimhere

Bet I know some of those people.

nibroc

Very interesting. My opinion is that most are. I mean, if you take the time to go to an AA meeting (which I thought taboo unless you REALLY were), you're probably and alcoholic.

I did not go to an AA meeting until my brother got out of rehab and, when visiting him socially for dinner, he invited me to a meeting. I said yes because I was and am an alcoholic. He goes to meetings 8 days a week.

But I went with him because I was curious. I would NEVER think of going to a meeting by myself. Too scary. But I've been to meetings with him 8 times now with him. Yet the attendance of those was only after family dinners (and it's an hour drive away) and he does the meetings daily.

Anyway, I find it hard to believe anyone would attend and AA meeting and not be a drunk. Heck, I've been a drunk for 8 years and could not bring myself to the meeting unless I went with my bro.

There is lots of fear to attend the meetings. Or maybe I'm an oddity, to be determined.

jimhere

"Anyway, I find it hard to believe anyone would attend and AA meeting and not be a drunk. Heck, I've been a drunk for 8 years and could not bring myself to the meeting unless I went with my bro."

You have to pretty screwed up to want to fit in in AA

AA is full of non-alcoholic hard drinker types, drug addicts that don't like NA, and just plain old lonely, screwed-up people looking for a place to fit. Here in this area, we get a lot of sex-offenders that the system can't figure out what to do with, so they are court-ordered to come to AA meetings.
Jim

keithj

I'm thinking that it's far more important to understand the definition of an alcoholic because that understanding is crucial to recovery, than it is to see if someone 'belongs'. Understanding and having full knowledge of my condition is useful insofar as it forms the foundation of a program of recovery.

The solution presented by the program of AA offers recovery and more to the hopeless alcoholic. So it makes some sense to understand if I'm a hopeless alcoholic or not. To really know what that means in the context of the solution being offered.

bob_sapp

I don't understand what you're point is. These people can all go become social drinkers, and should so they don't dilute AA? Many people in AA fit all these descriptions aswell as alcoholic, it's a diverse fellowship and how do you know what's in everyone's hearts? Don't most people in AA want to learn to control their drinking? I'm very confused here.

McGowdog

I've seen a guy who went to AA because his wife nagged him to come.

True story here; this was in a meeting in Denver on south University and the guys in the group asked the guy share why he was in AA and why he went to meetings there. He was a real nice guy and all but never talked and just sort of sat back and listened. He said that his wife nagged him for drinking two beers every night. She labelled him an alcoholic and nagged him into AA.

Plus he was lonely. I think that's just sad. But wouldn't he be better served to tell his wife to shut up and get a hobby, drink his two beers every night and maybe go fishing or join the Rotary Club or something?

Woah, Jim. I think what you speak of is true... about the sex-offenders. That's a case of bad CPC and PI work, if you ask me. Aren't there some Sex-Anonymous meetings that would better serve them?

Also, don't common thieves and burglers also have to give up drinking, drugs, and have to do sobriety and/or drug tests as part of probation?

CarolD

"If you think you have a drinking problem/are an alcoholic, you most likely do/are?"

hi Rainbowgirl.....

Yes, I do....because when I was drinking lightly
for years with no repercussions .....
it never occured to me to question why I drank.

I do hope you find your way....
Find a solution...try everything you can think of.

bob_sapp

I agree with you on these points, but they are all extreme examples and I don't think anyone is going to disagree (especially about the sex offenders).

The "difference" that seems to be discussed in this thread is a rigid legalistic interpretation of the word alcoholic, and I don't think splitting hairs to say who has a drinking problem and who is alcoholic is too beneficial. If there was some objective criteria that could clearly differentiate the two, then I think it would be an important topic. As it stands though, I don't see any. I don't think the drinking test alone is good enough either. There's plenty of people who could sit down for just one drink and say "I'm not an alcoholic! I can drink again!" but then 6 months later are sitting in a flophouse, with no money and a broken jaw. Do you see my point of view?

McGowdog

I personally agree with you and I don't like to see someone get judged on whether they're an alcoholic or not, but I see some guys do this.

The book says, "We don't like to diagnose..." etc. I see no reason why the potential alcoholic, hard drinker, etc. can't just do what they need to do and join us in our meetings, whether they need to take these 12 steps or not.

But here others say, "If you're not alcoholic, AA will drive you crazy." That seems like a harsh statement there. I don't know if it's true or not. You will not hear me say it. But I know it gets said. If it's true, I may change my stance on it one day.

But it doesn't matter to me anymore, if you don't need to do these steps, that's fine. If you do, join me. You won't be very comfortable in my home group though, unless you're a maddog. But there are so many different levels of meetings. Would you agree?

FightingIrish

That would be me.

FightingIrish

I dunno, I read the book myself, then went through it with my sponsor while doing the steps, and it was completely a life-changing work.

When I hear some people's interpretations of it, though, I wonder, "why are you making this sound like a root canal?"

jimhere

Absolutely! The experience I've had has been and continues to be transforming. Not always comfortable though. To expect growth to be comfortable is not realistic.

jimhere

"Woah, Jim. I think what you speak of is true... about the sex-offenders. That's a case of bad CPC and PI work, if you ask me. Aren't there some Sex-Anonymous meetings that would better serve them?"

Well, we can't expect our friends in the professional community to understand AA if the people doing the CPC work don't understand AA. Another reason why, with the exception of a few, that I only go to closed meetings and detox meetings these days.

Rad44

Yes. If you have to ask, you are already there. The only difference is in the severity of the illness. If I looked at my Alcoholic self early in my drinking career vs. at the end of my drinking career, they would not recognize each other. Even if they were drinking the same amount. That is because the illness of addiction always gets worse. It never gets better. If you choose to wait until you are a skid row bum eating from a dumpster until you consider yourself an alcoholic, you will eventually get there. You will save yourself a lot of tragedy and despair the earlier you stop completely.

McGowdog

I agree with you, that it gets worse, never better. That's been my experience, but it's not enough to stop an alky either. People say AA will wreck your drinking? That's BS. It's BS in the fact that it will NOT stop your drinking. Nor will the fear of it stop a recovered alcoholic. ADD: Oh, at least for the alcoholics that believe in AA. There may be a breed of alcoholic out there who can recover by some other means besides AA and not have to do all these crazy steps! So I don't want to speak for them! Whiskeyman is still running around in every sober recovered alcoholic's head. It would take some a lot more to unravel and drink again, but it can and does happen. And these guys who've been sober for something like 20+ years that go back to drinkin', woah. They are really lucky to survive it, get back in and get sober again.

There's a line or two in the book that seems to separate the alcoholic from the skid-row bum eating out of a dumpster, for me anyway;

"For three or four months, the goose hung high."

"I was finished and so were many of my friends. The papers reported men jumping to death from high towers of High Finance. That disgusted me. I would not jump. I went back to the bar. My friends had dropped several million since ten o' clock (1929!)- so what? Tomorrow was another day. As I drank, the old fierce determination to win came back."

"It relieved me somewhat to learn that in alcoholics that the will is amazingly weakened when it comes to combating liquor, though it often remains strong in other respects." aka... get an effing job!!!!!!!!!!!

"He often possesses special abilities, skills, and aptitudes, and has a promising career ahead of him. He uses his gifts to build up a bright outlook for his family and himself, and then pulls the stucture down on his head by a senseless series of sprees."

I've just got a theory that there's more hard drinkers than real alcoholics out there dumpster divin'. But hey, that's me. You're free to disagree with that.

In my experience, when I was drinking, I was movin' and shakin' and making money hand over fist. I'm a hard worker and I'm like a cat in that I've always landed back on my feet. But I've seen and heard about others like me that die, go insane, and get locked up. Dumpster divin', not so much.

And as far as the root canal thing; I just had a root canal about 3 weeks ago, for the 2nd time in my life, and it was a piece of cake. I sat there, breathed, and they went into my mouth and did what they did. It didn't even hurt, really. I just sat back, relaxed, meditated... piece of cake.