meditation

I think you have issues that I am not an alcoholic and posting in this forum. I was actually trying to let a non step addict know that it's possible to recover. Technically addiction is the same from what the MD told us in rehab. We were told it's the same addiction whether a person uses or drinks their poison.

I am not trying to be inflame anyone. Just show there is hope without the BB. I do believe it's possible to be happy without the standard AA/NA way. I became an addict over medical surgeries. I was just very physically sick and then became addicted over time. If I do ever have to take pills again it has to be medically supervised and locked up and given to me by someone else. I doubt I can take pills the way I used to take them and control myself. It's exactly the same you can't use pills the same way in active addiction.

I think it's great that SR gives us a place to share HOPE that one can really overcome the mind obsessions of addictions in many many ways. That people can recover with any method --I celebrate with and for them. I am just so happy they've found a way that works- Being happy that something worked for them and celebrating with them that they are making it. Sobriety can bring much peace and tolerance.

Pinkcuda

False. They'll tell you anything thay want in rehab to add content so they can justify the expense of recommending AA to you. AA is filling up with addicts because of the crap they keep hearing in rehab.
I will guarantee that an addict will take "Substance B" if "Substance A" isn't avaliable at the time.
An alcoholic will not revert to "Substance B" if Alcohol isn't avaliable. Even if they do, it will not satisfy their craving.

McGowdog

No, it's not Mark. And you make the case right here in your own post.

Well that's exactly it. I worked with a guy who used vicodin for pain while we were installing floors. When the job started, he took one in the morning for pain. He'd installed epoxy floors for about 25 years and his body was used up. But as the job progressed, he started taking half a pill at lunch, then 2 then after about a week he was snorting up what he had left. And the way he obtained the pills was not legit. But after about a month, he'd be off them and cleaned up. Then when we started the next project, he was back to 1 or 1/2 a pill in the morning and the progression started back from square one.

Some people consider alcohol to be food. My recovered addict friend in Loveland Colorado can drink and enjoy booze, as a social drinker. I can take pills. I read the directions. When it says take 1, I take one. If I still hurt, I take another. If that works, I stop. If I'm still in pain, I suffer. I cope.

I'm not an addict, so I'm asking. They are the one bringing this subject up here, not me. But while it's here in one of my only two subforums that I respond to in SR, I'm gonna respond to it.

I can relate to that experience and thanks. But it seems like we "steppers", "AAer" and "Alcoholics" here are being understood in our own forums and I want to clear things up for the few pure alcoholics that DO want to consider the AA meetings and the 12 Step Program that AA created, because we have a voice in here too. I will be that voice. I know we have other voices in here. Boy, do I ever. I will respect them. But I will clear misconceptions on our side of the street at every turn. And yes, there is a division between us.

What I mean by that is the fact that if I do what they do, I die. I have a right to believe that, just as they have a right to tell me they think I'm wrong or a step-nazi or a Big Book Thumper or driven by dogma or full of BS or needing to talk to my "sponsor". No. I know where I stand. I stand here. This is what I do. It works! And I want to let the world know about it!

I will shout from the mountaintop! Right here in the Alcoholism and 12 Step sub-forums!

And thanks again, Mark. There are few of us out here. And I'll be the first one to agree that this message is not for everybody. I have a theory that if everybody just gave our back-to-basic no BS approach to recovery, we'd not only be sober, clean, etc., but we'd be happy to be just alive and we'd be out enjoying life?

You don't think we like to go hiking, biking, rafting,





...to be continued

McGowdog

...continued

We're proud of our jobs/trades and work hard,



... to be continued...

McGowdog

... continued







But yeah, you can get addicted to and hide out in meetings. But usually, you heal up and life happens again.

And thanks, Bam. I've been working with a guy who's bipolar and I think he's really doing well treating his one affliction with his doctor and treating the booze with us in AA meetings. He needs not beat himself up too much though.

Doing these steps give me freedom from that AND give me freedom to fail and be self-will run riot until I hit a wall or one of my peers has a little talk with me.

But to be told "yet it is not a fact...it is an opinion...you put your faith in this opinion and it works for you..." is something I disagree with and I'm going to voice that too.

But let's say my "Faith" is not a fact and is an opinion. An "opinion". Well that's cool. Opinions aren't so bad. As I said, they're cheap and can't be taxed. Booze, which WAS my faith, was expensive and the gov't taxes the heck out of it. So at very minimum, I'm spending less money on poison and not getting those expensive and dangerous DUIs and not getting into fist fights with doctors and cops and all kinds of other drama.

So yes, it IS working for me. But I have an alcoholic ego as well. It gets smashed from time to time in the steps, but it grows along with my Faith.

Do me a favor people, don't tell me what my faith and stuff is based on YOUR opinions, ok? If I ask your advice, I'll then be receptive to your opinion. See, I have an opinion. Ten months in a meeting or in that book doesn not an expert make.

Let's have a great weekend! I got paid today! Payroll was supposed to be Wednesday, so I was getting nervous. But better late than never, huh? I work for a small company with my older brother as CEO and my mom and dad having to work here because they can't afford to retire. And others throughout the country and world are struggling and/or perceive it as such, so maybe send a prayer our way and we'll reciprocate.

Well that's fine. And I was trying to let step-doing alcoholics know that your other solution may NOT work for them and to consider this first. Because what if your solution does NOT work for them? Dr Bob makes the bold statement that if you go after the AA Program with one half the zeal you did to get a drink, this will work for you.

And we in Alcoholics Anonymous were NOT taught that and I personally disagree with that totally and completely.

And that's fine I'm sure. But I'm here to share my own experience... of one very specific method.

And there again, this is the "Alcoholism" subforum. Why are we even still talking about pills? What's your experience with booze? If pills lead you to booze, that would be of value to many of us alcoholics here. That we can relate to.

Philly

Wow I wish I had time to read this whole thread. Only a topic like this on Sr could get 5 pages in a few days. Everything makes sense but I am still undecided. I was a non-drinker for the first 40 years of my life. Once I started drinking I became a heavy drinker. Then the hair of the dog got me and I became a weekend binger very quickly. I was forced to stop because I came to work 2 times after drinking and was caught so I go help and have been sober now for 10 months. I don't do AA for personal reasons but I just think that would have made it easier for me in the very beginning. I am not willing to take the big book test at this point. So I may never know for sure if I am an alcoholic but I am sure that I drank like one. So I guess for me if you walk like a duck and sound like a duck you must be a duck.

Great topic

McGowdog

You make a great point, Philly.

But keep in mind, the AA book test is a coin with two sides to it.

The other side of the coin says, quit for a year. You've got 2 months left. You're doin' good. You need not drink again to do any test! But, if you find you need additional help, it's there.

I hear that hard drinkers can stop or moderate. That doesn't mean they can all moderate. Some have to stay stopped. The only difference between them and the alcoholic really, from what the book says, is the "non-spiritual basis" part.

Just food for thought.

Pinkcuda

Philly, I would guess it would be better to assume you're an alcoholic and live your life accordingly than to assume you're not an alcoholic and live your life accordingly.
Besides, by the time we get to this point I'm sure all of us have steped over to the nearest bar room and tried some controlled drinking. I'm sure all of us have tried it several times. Just like the book says. "Stepping over tho the nearest Bar" is a metaphor. We can do the same thing in the privacy of our own homes.
Sounds like you already have.

Philly

Yes Mac,

I didn't want to say I would never drink again because I am not totally convinced. So I did tell myself I would not drink for a year. That does not mean on the 365th day I am going to have a drink. I never want to be drunk again so if not drinking at all is the way to go I think I hopefully will stay on this path. IMO it is just way too risky for me. My husband and our circle of friends drink way too much. So in my situation I would only be setting myself up for failure if I attempted to have one or two. In my ideal world I would like to have a few for special occaisions dinners or while on vacation.

meditation

I was informed by an MD with a background in addictions as an addict and as an addictionologist . I think I can safely believe that doctors have studied this issue and here is a link which discusses the ways our brain begins to depend on substances.
Addiction as Disease

I truly believe it because many people are cross addicted to alcohol and drugs. I don't prefer alcohol as my doc but I do believe if I gave alcohol a serious try I would become alcoholic. So in that sense I can share my hope and experience with someone battling an addiction. Many people can get help in step meetings. I don't ever refute that. It's not my personal journey.
But it is a teaching of NA that alcohol is considered a drug.
It's not really talking so much about pills as it is sharing about experiences that help any addict and I say addict meaning those addicted to alcohol also.

I don't think I ever said that AA or NA won't ever work for a person. But some seem determined to think it's the only way and that a person will fail without it. I am not bashing AA or NA. I think whatever WAY a person can achieve sobriety/clean living is what should be used. Open mind to all ways and compassion for treatments and people suffering from alcohol and drug addiction.

McGowdog

But some don't. Some maybe do. I'll give you that. But I've never been to an AA meeting that had the locks on the outside... except for some jail meetings and State Hospital meetings I've been to. Some AAers are stating their experience and targeting an audience of like individuals and you cannot make the accurate claim that "ANY" are "ACTUALLY" determined to think it's the only way and that a person will fail without it.

It's just not true. But it "seems" to be your big argument.

Now the rest of your post is full of stuff that AA just doesn't teach or preach. I would say personally, that that stuff is not true for me.

The only reason why AA was able to come into being and pave the way for the rest of us here is that two specific doctors said, "I can't help you. You are beyond human aid. You need a psychic change or some miracle. I cannot give that to you." Namely, it was Dr Carl Jung and Dr Silkworth. This new information and these new doctors mean nothing to me because booze hasn't changed, alcoholics haven't changed, and neither has the solution.

It worked for them back in 35' without them needing to be experts on brain chemistry.

I'm not going to argue you or debate about all the stuff in that post that run contrary to the AA Program.

meditation

I totally respect that because your hope and experience comes from AA and I think that's great. Not being sarcastic about this feeling I have of goodness towards you.
I love your photos. I love that floor, I wish you'd come put a floor like that in for me, it's beautiful.
I am learning to love myself and with that experience I am learning love towards others and all the ways we find to be different yet the same.

Not much more I can add as we'd be just insane to keep pounding away. I think it's great that there is freedom from addiction and all the ways a person can work free from being enslaved. Peace.

McGowdog

Thank you thank you! And ditto!

But I hope I never get down on a floor again. I labored 5 long years doing grunt work so I could earn my desk job. I go and test floors from time to time, but my knees, feet, back, hands... they're shot. It's a young person's trade. I did that floor all by myself and stayed up 40 hours straight doing it and was supposed to do another floor there too, but ran out of time. We only do commercial because they are ESD (static stuff) floors for electronics manuf. and stuff.

Now, rafting is something I don't think I'll do again unless I'm on a tamer oar boat. I swam the last time we went... 10 minutes down a Class 4 in the Eagle river. I prayed on that one. I was lucky to get out without my head smashed.

I want to know more about ... oh, gotta help out in the warehouse.

You folks have a Gr8 weekend!

Whitney

I agree with the statement also. I have had this thought-whether I am or am not an alcoholic-lurking in the back of my mind. When I started reading about the subject and started recognizing myself in the stories of others, I can't deny it.

Incidentally, this is the first time I have ever admitted to having this problem. Yikes.