Tom67

I agree. Problem drinker is another one.

I can't see how you can have an issue with alcohol at all and it not involve a lack of control.

I think this all springs out of AA's explanation about how some become sober without AA and that is if you were not an alcoholic to begin with ... which is an insult to those who work hard stopping their very difficult and ruinous addictions, getting healthy without dedicating their life to some alcoholic organization/identitiy.

It's especially bad because some will try to rationalize their problem as just "problem drinking" or "heavy drinking" (which for some reason makes those around you want you to stop) and this just leads to more drinking and more problems period.

Believe808

I was just wondering Why you ask?

bob_sapp

I would say yes, most people have never had this cross their minds in their life. Alcoholic is the label of death, I can't fathom why anyone would want that except as a last resort to fix their life. I'm not sure what the difference between drinking problem and alcoholic is... I guess the latter could be fixed? You're an alcoholic when you say you are, so I guess as soon as you stop saying it, you're not an alcoholic anymore.

Tommyh

rainbowgirl,yes i agree with the statement

Mark75

I agree with the statement

Mark

McGowdog

I agree with Rob B's statements on posts #5 and 14. They are as solid as a rock and reconcile with my experience of doing the work out of the BB. And very unpopular with what I've seen out in the real world too.

Just look at how we argue this very simple question.

So my answer to the statement is "No." It (my answer) runs contrary to what I've been told in a local treatment center too.

It's sort of the paradox of life, right? Most real alkies I know had no clue they were alkies until they did steps or denied it to the bitter end. Remember the whole river in Egypt thing?

Pinkcuda

[Rant on]
In these days where we idolize the disfunctional via the "One Eyed God" we call television I don't think anyone has a clue any more as to what a "Problem" really is? Rehab is not for people that got a DUI Lindsey and Brittney. They'll gladly take your money and let you call yourself anything you want though. That goes for you too Paris and Nicole. Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism are two different things.
[Rant off]

Ananda

I don't believe that wondering if you are alchoholic means you are.....I have many friends and family who drank heavily enough to questions this for a brief period in there life...ended up they just had a wild phase.

My wild phase nver ended...

I was told by a therapist once that it is the healthiest person in a dysfunctional family that usually starts out looking for help for themselves. I think a thoughtful person can decide they need to look at their alchohol intake and consider this question without it meaning they are automatically an alchoholic.

Eroica

The only people making the distinction between problem drinking/addiction and alcoholism are the AAers, are those influenced by AA. Oh yeah, not everyone believes in denial.

I agree with u that some people don't believe that their drinking is getting out of hand. And many deny they're addicted when they are. But they're not in "denial" about "alcoholism", they just refuse to acknowledge that they're addicted. Or they may feel hopeless. Its not up to me to judge what they're in denial about based on what I believe about alcoholism. I hope that makes sense.

Oh yea.. you seem to imply that people with serious drinking problems who refuse AA cant recover. Do u believe that?

bob_sapp

I have been told the truth is what you believe. If you believe you're an alkie, you are, if you don't believe it, you're not. If you're not, then feel free to drink. You can change your mind any time. I guess you'll either quit drinking because you're an alkie, you will not believe you're an alkie and keep drinking until you hit your "bottom," or you will keep drinking because you are not actually an alcoholic. Who is in column 2 and who is in column 3?

McGowdog

Ok... I'm trying to figure out what you are asking and how you got that question from the quote above.

First of all, I do judge people... whether I'm supposed to or not. I judge you on what you say and how you drink and what you actually do... and I come to a conclusion as to whether I'm similar to you or not.

Some people drank like me, some did not. Some drank less, but are very much just in danger of losing control once they start and need Devine Intervention to stay stopped. My dad, I could have swore, would have been an alcoholic. Now I'm tending towards the fine line of hard drinker. I honestly don't know. I'd hate to see him drink again. I'm also not inclined to beg him into AA. He doesn't seem to need it.

Now I think the question is if I think people with serious drinking problems who refuse AA can't recover? My only experience with people who have serious drinking problems and don't do AA still drink. They are out there getting drunk... and denying they have a problem. And I leave them alone. I have several old friends like that. One of my friends (not so much anymore because he's a jerk who never calls me anyway) from high school is like that. He likes that Huey Lewis song, "You've been thinkin', and I've been drinkin'..." He's a real smart-alleck too.

flutter

Ok.. no idea how this yet again got into an AA debate.

When I thought of the question, I thought of it as it was stated, if someone thinks they have a problem with alcohol, then they probably do. I believe that. I think if someone already thinks they DO have a problem, the liklihood is high that they might. I also agree that there's a whole lot of people that do have a 'problem' that have yet to think they do, but that had nothing to do with the OP question. I was not looking at the term "alcoholic" and that will debated long after we're all dead.

So yes, in my opinion if someone concludes that alcohol is a problem, it likely is.

McGowdog

Then let's not debate. AA or otherwise. But we can "agree" or "disagree" with the original statement, which is this;

So, let's at least logic this out.

If C is in A and B is in A, then is C in B or is B in C? No. Not "congruous". But now, if B is in A and if C is in B, then is C in A? Yes. Congruent.

So... drinking problem = problem drinker, yes. Problem drinker = Alcoholic, not congruous. Problem drinker = potential alcoholic? Yes, sure, I think so.

Problem drinker = hard drinker? Yes, I think so as well.

BB, There is a Solution; "Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason- ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor-becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention."

"But what about the real alcoholic?"

Alcoholic = hard drinker? False.

For me and countless others, there's no debate whatsoever. It is what it is. err... as I've seen on this forum... "What it is is what it is." Now there's logic in all its beauty.

bugsworth

I'm with flutter on this...If alcohol is causing you problems than you have an alcohol problem. The term "alcoholic" has different meanings for different people. No matter the definition abstaining would be prudent.

hrhxtc

I think most people who question their drinking for any period of time do have a problem. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are alcoholics but they are problem drinkers. My friends who don't have drinking problems have never questioned their drinking. Now some people go through tough times in life and they drink too much and they question it. Some get over the difficulty in their life and resume normal social drinking. Those who don't/can't have a problem.

Zencat

One can have plenty of problems with alcohol and not be an alcoholic. I see the two, substance abuse and substance dependence as highly problematic yet different.

McGowdog

Ain't that the truth?!

Sure. Prudent. Provident; careful; discreet; judicious. Does this describe anybody here when they were drinking? Hmmm... not me anyway.

Now, as to the "alcoholic" and "different meaning" for "different people" subject; The AA book has some specific points as to what it means and kind of narrows it right on down from the moderate drinker, the teetotaler, the reformer and temperance people, the hard drinker, and the "real" alcoholic. It's right there in that book. That's the terms 100 plus sober and recovered alcoholics used. Then if you go to the chapter "To the Wives", they narrow the alcoholic down even further; into four separate categories.

There's a wealth and a plethora of information in there about alcohol and the people who drink it. It's really neat.

jamdls

I thought I was just a wino, then I thought I was an alcoholic but my psychiatrist said I wasn't, that I "drank to self medicate". Most people I've met from AA (I went to about 12 meetings) say I'm not an alcoholic because I was able to stop (and stay sober for nearly 2 yrs now) w/o help. I know I can't drink because I can't handle it, it totally changes my personality and I generally didn't stop until I passed out but just because I thought I was an alcoholic doesn't make me an alcoholic.

bugsworth

McGowdog, I appreciate you pointing out the bb as a reference...I have read it and don't put much stock in its opinion. By all means utilize its definition of an alcoholic if it helps you stay sober.

jamdls...great job on two years...I can relate to the severe change in personality while drinking...so glad to be sober.

Rob B

Read post #29, maybe you'll get an idea.