kurtrambis

By there I meant their (pedantic for a forum I know but as my teacher used to say people are inclined to take you less seriously if you can't do basic spelling LOL)

jimhere

That's great Paul. But what about when you are not involved in a discussion?

I don't think about drinking, except when I'm talking about it to another alcoholic. And then it is not the kind of thinking that will get me back to a drink.

I don't think about not drinking either.

Whatever works for you I guess.

doorknob

Well, I'm not having problems with cravings or urges. I've only been sober not quite 4 months. You've been sober most of my adult life.

jimhere

I'm glad you are not having any problems right now.

Please don't compare your sobriety to others. It is a dangerous trap to fall into. There will always be those that have a harder time than you and there will be those that seem to have an easier time of it than yourself.

As for length of sobriety, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that. I'v worked with guys who recovered from state of mind that takes one back to a drink real early in sobriety, two, three months or less. It left me when I was about six months sober. Yet I know people (and I know this because I hear them talk about it) who fight taking a drink years away from their last drink.

I'm not judging these people. But for myself it is a battle that I can't win. Eventually the insane urge wins out.
Peace,
Jim

CarolD

Ive been wondering how ElChupacabra is doing these days.

He started this thread last Aug. bumped it last week
and last I know....was on his way home from work
to begin Day 4 of de toxing.

Anyone have more recent news?
Please share if so.

I'm becoming concerned...

jimhere

I was wondering the same thing.

navysteve

The Big Book has been re-written over and over and over again. Many people have adapted it to suit their needs. Maybe instead of trying to make a whole group of people who found a way that works for them bend their knee to your will, why don't you write your own recovery book? Take the parts of the Big Book you like, burn the rest, and change the parts you think are wrong. A whole lot of people have found a solution in those pages, and our book even states that we simply have a way that worked for us...

If you don't like our solution, find another. Why would we change what works for us???? There are over 200 12 step fellowships

ian_g

First off Steve get to sleep...5:20AM come on (unless of course you were getting up for work).

Selfish, self-seeking that we thought was the root of our problem (Big Book somewhere in How It Works). I see some similarities haha. Steve nails it on the head again.

CAPTAINZING2000

Eroica

No one is asking to change what works for you. What people are saying is that if AA publicly purports to reduce or stop drinking then it must be scrutinized as a method of treatment, because people WILL try it out as such. The 12 step industry has inflitertrated every branch of science and government, it owes us that much. If you don't believe me, go to your nearest Barnes & Noble or therapist and you'll soon discover everyone is either an addict or codependent of some type. I don't want to end up living in a society where eventually every bad behavior becomes medicalized or cured by the 12 steps, or worse, say "I'm diseased" to excuse all bad behavior.

kurtrambis

I was on about the first 160 odd pages by the way. This has not been rewritten merely edited.
AA History - Fourth Edition Changes to the BIG BOOK.


The effectiveness of AA is debatable. I have analysed many stats on AA. For a fair proportion (exact amount varies depending on which study you look at) of people its nothing more than a dummy pill. I don’t want anybody to bend to my knee. I’m just expressing my view which isn’t just my view but the view of many people who attend AA for the fellowship but often are too afraid to speak their mind and talk about other solutions. I think this is very unhealthy.

Any modern book on addiction, of which there are many far superior to the outdated BB, can not compete with the BB which is dragged along by the powerful fellowship indoctrinating very vulnerable people

No I don’t like the BB solution and think its dangerous it made me more depressed and I relapsed. Do you expect me to be quiet about that?? I think for certain types of alcoholics its ideas are dangerous.

kurtrambis

This is an example of a vile statement from the BB that I think should be removed. As usual with anything from the BB there is no evidence to back up the theory that alcoholics are more selfish than normal people. Describing somebody who has mental illness (which a large proportion of alcoholics have) and is using alcohol to escape it as selfish is mental abuse IMO.

I'm sure many alcoholics are selfish but many aren't

doorknob

I have and will continue to start LifeRing meetings where I live to help make it more available as an option. BYOP is as open minded, open ended and dogma free as it gets.

navysteve

Once again, AA only claims to find a way, not the way.

Nope, we have no spies in the government. The courts see fit to send people to AA meetings and many groups agree to host them. We have no partnership with the government.


AA is not responsible for what is on the shelves of Barnes and Noble. And AA does not state that everyone is an alcoholic or addict. In fact our bok goes to great lengths to discuss who may be an alcoholic and who may not be. It talks about people who are merely problem drinkers. You may want to read the book in an unbiased light.

I don't want to end up living in a society where eventually every bad behavior becomes medicalized or cured by the 12 steps, or worse, say "I'm diseased" to excuse all bad behavior.
Neither do I. The Big Book uses the word disease only once in the first 164 pages. Don't confuse the program with what you hear in meetings. I don't blame all my behaviors on my "disease". To do so goes against the personal responsibility the AA program teaches.
There have been no credible reports on the effectiveness of the AA program. At best, there have been reports regarding who stays and who doesn't in AA meetings. That gives zero indication about who is and who is not working the program. That particular debate has gone on in this site too many times. I for one be dragged into that, but if you are curious, you can see what has gone on here on that subject...


No I don't expect you to be quiet, I expect you to do something positive. AA worked for me. I never once suggested that it is the only game in town, I was being 100% serious when I suggested you write your own recovery book. If you believe AA to hold so much sickness then go and start another group.

Then write your own book, other people have done it.

There is alot of credible research which shows a correlation between alcoholics/addicts and extreme selfish behavior. True there is no concrete factual proof. But the evidence is quite substantial.


The Selfish Brain: Learning from Addiction by Robert L. Dupont at Questia Online Library

ian_g

I would love to meet a true alcoholic who was not selfish. Maybe you can do it another way honestly. I have yet to see anyone who is a real alcoholic get sober without a Higher Power but maybe you will prove to be exception to the rule. AA seems to work quite well and as far as I have seen it hasn't failed for those who do the work and continue to do the work. I think you may be confusing the fellowship and the program of AA. I highly doubt if you honestly worked a program that you got worse. I have never once, ever seen this happen.

I believe your definition of selfishness is very skewed. It was necessary to see that even when I was being "kind" I ALWAYS did it in a way in which to manipulate others. In addition, my people-pleasing behavior was always to get over on others.

It isn't the use of alcohol that is selfish. Many people use alcohol and aren't selfish people. It is our behavior where we take advantage of others, act ego-centric and have total disregard for everyone else that makes us selfish. I highly doubt that normal people go around like alcoholics do thinking that the world owes them something and that others should act as they wish.

Take care

navysteve

I was referring to all the people who have taken from the Big Book and used it in their own recovery program ( CDA/NA all borrowed from the Big Book of AA who in turn have borrowed from other organizations from before)

navysteve

I wish you well with that and hope you find answers. I think Catherine Trestrail has done some great things.

doorknob

I've met plenty of folks, but I guess they're not real alcoholics...

ian_g

I guess not. Maybe just hard drinkers. I knew people who were doing the same stuff that I was doing but given a strong enough reason (the consequences) they were able to stop. I was not able to stop no matter what the reason was. I had lost the power of choice in whether or not I was going to pick up at any given time.

Like it says the hard drinker can put it down when faced with a strong enough reason to do so.

doorknob

Thanks, Steve. I just looked her up and see that her facility is in WA. They also have a LifeRing meeting there and the contact's name is Paul, lol.