Relapse after 4.5 years - told at mtg. now regret..telling me to take welcome chip..
Silly Rabbit
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 956
eh, whatever. you either get it or you don't.
quick reminder-"there are such unfortunates. they are not at fault, they seem to have been born that way. they are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of life which demands rigorous honesty. their chances are less than average."
you've been in AA for 4.5 years and i'm sure you've read this many a time. why try and deny it now?
quick reminder-"there are such unfortunates. they are not at fault, they seem to have been born that way. they are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of life which demands rigorous honesty. their chances are less than average."
you've been in AA for 4.5 years and i'm sure you've read this many a time. why try and deny it now?
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
I would find a "Newcomer" chip after drinking a glass of wine after almost 5 years an insult. IMO that is insanity.
That is a part of the program I try to ignore.
Tiburon
In Recovery Since 2002
"Take What You Want & Leave The Rest"
That is a part of the program I try to ignore.
Tiburon
In Recovery Since 2002
"Take What You Want & Leave The Rest"
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: library
Posts: 131
I don't like AA. Tried it for 5 months then left for greener pastures. (However, I did gain some valuable tools.)
One of the things I hated about AA was the "counting of time". I take each day one at a time. If I were to slip, which I haven't, one is made to feel like a loser and to "start over". What happened to all that valuable sober time?
POOF! GONE!
Much too ridged for me.
jane
One of the things I hated about AA was the "counting of time". I take each day one at a time. If I were to slip, which I haven't, one is made to feel like a loser and to "start over". What happened to all that valuable sober time?
POOF! GONE!
Much too ridged for me.
jane
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Originally Posted by f911 
I don't like AA. Tried it for 5 months then left for greener pastures. (However, I did gain some valuable tools.)
One of the things I hated about AA was the "counting of time". I take each day one at a time. If I were to slip, which I haven't, one is made to feel like a loser and to "start over". What happened to all that valuable sober time?
POOF! GONE!
Much too ridged for me.
jane
One of the things I hated about AA was the "counting of time". I take each day one at a time. If I were to slip, which I haven't, one is made to feel like a loser and to "start over". What happened to all that valuable sober time?
POOF! GONE!
Much too ridged for me.
jane
Just my opinion: tiburon88 if you truly understood and worked the program of AA you would not get a resentment over other people's sober time and you would not lie about yours. I don't say that to insult you. I say that because that is what I have learned by applying the program of AA to my life. But my truth and your truth may not be the same and you will do what you want despite my opinion. So good luck to you and I hope someday you find peace.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Hope! Is that not what the new comer seeks?
Where is the Hope for the newcomer if he does not see some one pick up a 1 month chip, a one year chip, a 20 year chip?
What Hope is a newcomer given if he has no idea if anyone in a meeting has more then 2 or 3 weeks sober?
All Hope is lost for a newcomer when they see someone pick up a 5 year chip who just 6 months before they had been drinking with them. What they see is a living lie rather then Hope.
Where is the Experience & Strength given to others if some one who slips or relapses does not share thier Experience & Strength by picking up a 24 hour chip and sharing with others what led to thier slip/relapse?
We keep what we have by giving it away! What do we have to give away? Experience, Strength & Hope
A secret or a lie does not give any one Experience, Strength & Hope!
So may folks who keep secrets and/or tell lies need to listen very carefully to those with good sobriety and learn from thier Experience, Strength & Hope that secrets and lies put us one step closer to that next drink, the truth and being open with others sets us free, that takes us a step further away from that next drink.
Where is the Hope for the newcomer if he does not see some one pick up a 1 month chip, a one year chip, a 20 year chip?
What Hope is a newcomer given if he has no idea if anyone in a meeting has more then 2 or 3 weeks sober?
All Hope is lost for a newcomer when they see someone pick up a 5 year chip who just 6 months before they had been drinking with them. What they see is a living lie rather then Hope.
Where is the Experience & Strength given to others if some one who slips or relapses does not share thier Experience & Strength by picking up a 24 hour chip and sharing with others what led to thier slip/relapse?
We keep what we have by giving it away! What do we have to give away? Experience, Strength & Hope
A secret or a lie does not give any one Experience, Strength & Hope!
So may folks who keep secrets and/or tell lies need to listen very carefully to those with good sobriety and learn from thier Experience, Strength & Hope that secrets and lies put us one step closer to that next drink, the truth and being open with others sets us free, that takes us a step further away from that next drink.
Silly Rabbit
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 956
taz, i love what you wrote-i just want to add one thing...
i've been reading posts here for a while, and one of the things i've noticed is that there are a few folks on here who claim that AA is too rigid, bullies people, or is judgemental. i wonder if they've worked the steps, and i wonder if all the meetings they live near are just crap. it makes me sad to think that, because my meetings are great. and a white chip, beyond hope and humility and honesty, is about staying accountable too.
i wonder if some of the folks who find AA full of "bullies" have any idea about accountability and what it means to be accountable.
it's not just about ourselves, anymore. we need to be accountable to others in the rooms, otherwise what's the point? then you can take it one day at a time and if one day you feel like drinking that's okay, you can just forget it and not drink tomorrow. that's not accountable, or honest. that's justifying your actions, justifying what you want when you want it. if you're able to do that, you might not be an alcoholic.
but for me, it's important not only to humble yourself but to be accountable to the principles of the rooms. relapse doesn't mean you lose what knowledge you've gained over 4.5 years, but it does mean that you need to get back to basics.
i've been reading posts here for a while, and one of the things i've noticed is that there are a few folks on here who claim that AA is too rigid, bullies people, or is judgemental. i wonder if they've worked the steps, and i wonder if all the meetings they live near are just crap. it makes me sad to think that, because my meetings are great. and a white chip, beyond hope and humility and honesty, is about staying accountable too.
i wonder if some of the folks who find AA full of "bullies" have any idea about accountability and what it means to be accountable.
it's not just about ourselves, anymore. we need to be accountable to others in the rooms, otherwise what's the point? then you can take it one day at a time and if one day you feel like drinking that's okay, you can just forget it and not drink tomorrow. that's not accountable, or honest. that's justifying your actions, justifying what you want when you want it. if you're able to do that, you might not be an alcoholic.
but for me, it's important not only to humble yourself but to be accountable to the principles of the rooms. relapse doesn't mean you lose what knowledge you've gained over 4.5 years, but it does mean that you need to get back to basics.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Notice that aa is "heads I win, tails you lose"
If you quit drinking and stay quit, then "the aa program" gets all of the credit.
But if you relapse, then you get all of the blame.
Where is aa accountability? Simple they have none.
You don't get more than 10 minutes into any aa meeting before someone is reading the beginning paragraphs of Chapter Five of the Big Book, that says that anyone for whom the A.A. program doesn't work is "constitutionally incapable of being honest."
aa always plays blame-the-victim when the program fails to sober somebody up or keep somebody sober...... They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.
That oozes rigid, and judgemental.
aa supporters never, not for a minute, honestly consider the possibility that maybe aa and the twelve steps aren't right for many people and for a good majority the aa program doesn't really work at all. Success rates prove it.
Some sponsors will even say to people who refuse the religious conversion as a condition of quitting drinking, "Maybe you should go back out and do some more research on the subject."
Surrender or die.....give me your lunch money or I'll beat you up....bullies come in all shapes and sizes.
As for hope...teaching powerlessness as the foundation that everything else is to be built upon is not hope....it is despair.
Teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol, that they cannot resist temptation and cravings, is damaging, and almost guarantees relapses and binges.
Teaching people to expect God, a group of drunks and even a door knob to take away their desire to drink is self-defeating and most certainly guarantees plenty of failures.
If you quit drinking and stay quit, then "the aa program" gets all of the credit.
But if you relapse, then you get all of the blame.
Where is aa accountability? Simple they have none.
You don't get more than 10 minutes into any aa meeting before someone is reading the beginning paragraphs of Chapter Five of the Big Book, that says that anyone for whom the A.A. program doesn't work is "constitutionally incapable of being honest."
aa always plays blame-the-victim when the program fails to sober somebody up or keep somebody sober...... They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.
That oozes rigid, and judgemental.
aa supporters never, not for a minute, honestly consider the possibility that maybe aa and the twelve steps aren't right for many people and for a good majority the aa program doesn't really work at all. Success rates prove it.
Some sponsors will even say to people who refuse the religious conversion as a condition of quitting drinking, "Maybe you should go back out and do some more research on the subject."
Surrender or die.....give me your lunch money or I'll beat you up....bullies come in all shapes and sizes.
As for hope...teaching powerlessness as the foundation that everything else is to be built upon is not hope....it is despair.
Teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol, that they cannot resist temptation and cravings, is damaging, and almost guarantees relapses and binges.
Teaching people to expect God, a group of drunks and even a door knob to take away their desire to drink is self-defeating and most certainly guarantees plenty of failures.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 746
As far as the original post, drinking after 4.5 years of sobriety, leads me to ask, did you have craving, obsession of the mind, I would look at that,maybe your not alcoholic, AA is filled with folks who don't fit this criteria.
Bugs,
You have every right to your opinion,
This may be your experience with AA, but it is a Distortion and extremely generalized narrative of what is true for others. Seems like you have an ax to grind with AA these days.
Bugs,
You have every right to your opinion,
This may be your experience with AA, but it is a Distortion and extremely generalized narrative of what is true for others. Seems like you have an ax to grind with AA these days.
Silly Rabbit
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 956
i have never said AA is for everyone.
i think there are a lot of different ways to get sober, however this "slip" happened to a member of AA. so, naturally, i'm going to assume that AA principles are something known by the original poster. i've also never seen AA "blame the victim"-i've seen AA members grow from "victims" to folks that are growing up and learning to take responsibility for their actions and reactions. i'm one of those miracles. i give my program credit, and my program gives me credit-it works if I WORK IT. and i work it. 'cause i'm worth it.
i don't know what AA you go to, but maybe you could visit charlotte and go to a meeting here. mine aren't what you described at all, bugs.
i think there are a lot of different ways to get sober, however this "slip" happened to a member of AA. so, naturally, i'm going to assume that AA principles are something known by the original poster. i've also never seen AA "blame the victim"-i've seen AA members grow from "victims" to folks that are growing up and learning to take responsibility for their actions and reactions. i'm one of those miracles. i give my program credit, and my program gives me credit-it works if I WORK IT. and i work it. 'cause i'm worth it.
i don't know what AA you go to, but maybe you could visit charlotte and go to a meeting here. mine aren't what you described at all, bugs.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
Bugs,
I have never heard it put that way. If you stay sober and stay stopped AA gets the credit and if you "realapse" you get all the blame. That is 100% true!
AA is very rigid and people get frightened when a fellow member starts thinking "outside the box." The program is also very dogmatic. I mean who the heck cares how they got sober in 1939? Welcome to 2008 people!
I've started attending more NA meetings & find them much less rigid. I believe their book was written in the 80's. Unfortuantly, I still must deal with the "my sobriety date is better than yours".
Tiburon
In Recovery Since 2002
"Take What You Want & Leave The Rest"
I have never heard it put that way. If you stay sober and stay stopped AA gets the credit and if you "realapse" you get all the blame. That is 100% true!
AA is very rigid and people get frightened when a fellow member starts thinking "outside the box." The program is also very dogmatic. I mean who the heck cares how they got sober in 1939? Welcome to 2008 people!
I've started attending more NA meetings & find them much less rigid. I believe their book was written in the 80's. Unfortuantly, I still must deal with the "my sobriety date is better than yours".
Tiburon
In Recovery Since 2002
"Take What You Want & Leave The Rest"
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Emimily, I wasn't describing a meeting, just some of the tenants.
If a person "slips" in aa whose fault is it then?
What exactly went wrong?
I am all for taking personal responsibilty, aa is not. We have no personal responsibilty if we have turned our will and life over to God. We are taught we have no mental defense over the first drink. How is that personal responsibilty? It's not...
It is a double bind.
If a person "slips" in aa whose fault is it then?
What exactly went wrong?
I am all for taking personal responsibilty, aa is not. We have no personal responsibilty if we have turned our will and life over to God. We are taught we have no mental defense over the first drink. How is that personal responsibilty? It's not...
It is a double bind.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
One can look past the air of superiority that comes with lengthy sobriety, if one remembers that quantity does not equal quality. It comes with the territory.
The odd thing is so many of the authors (contributing writers) of the bb, did not remain sober. The sucess rate then was as equally bad then as it is now. We just don't talk about it. Ya know the big pink elephant sitting in the room.
The odd thing is so many of the authors (contributing writers) of the bb, did not remain sober. The sucess rate then was as equally bad then as it is now. We just don't talk about it. Ya know the big pink elephant sitting in the room.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
Originally Posted by bugsworth
Notice that aa is "heads I win, tails you lose"
If you quit drinking and stay quit, then "the aa program" gets all of the credit.
But if you relapse, then you get all of the blame.
Where is aa accountability? Simple they have none.
You don't get more than 10 minutes into any aa meeting before someone is reading the beginning paragraphs of Chapter Five of the Big Book, that says that anyone for whom the A.A. program doesn't work is "constitutionally incapable of being honest."
aa always plays blame-the-victim when the program fails to sober somebody up or keep somebody sober...... They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.
That oozes rigid, and judgemental.
aa supporters never, not for a minute, honestly consider the possibility that maybe aa and the twelve steps aren't right for many people and for a good majority the aa program doesn't really work at all. Success rates prove it.
Some sponsors will even say to people who refuse the religious conversion as a condition of quitting drinking, "Maybe you should go back out and do some more research on the subject."
Surrender or die.....give me your lunch money or I'll beat you up....bullies come in all shapes and sizes.
As for hope...teaching powerlessness as the foundation that everything else is to be built upon is not hope....it is despair.
Teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol, that they cannot resist temptation and cravings, is damaging, and almost guarantees relapses and binges.
Teaching people to expect God, a group of drunks and even a door knob to take away their desire to drink is self-defeating and most certainly guarantees plenty of failures.
If you quit drinking and stay quit, then "the aa program" gets all of the credit.
But if you relapse, then you get all of the blame.
Where is aa accountability? Simple they have none.
You don't get more than 10 minutes into any aa meeting before someone is reading the beginning paragraphs of Chapter Five of the Big Book, that says that anyone for whom the A.A. program doesn't work is "constitutionally incapable of being honest."
aa always plays blame-the-victim when the program fails to sober somebody up or keep somebody sober...... They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.
That oozes rigid, and judgemental.
aa supporters never, not for a minute, honestly consider the possibility that maybe aa and the twelve steps aren't right for many people and for a good majority the aa program doesn't really work at all. Success rates prove it.
Some sponsors will even say to people who refuse the religious conversion as a condition of quitting drinking, "Maybe you should go back out and do some more research on the subject."
Surrender or die.....give me your lunch money or I'll beat you up....bullies come in all shapes and sizes.
As for hope...teaching powerlessness as the foundation that everything else is to be built upon is not hope....it is despair.
Teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol, that they cannot resist temptation and cravings, is damaging, and almost guarantees relapses and binges.
Teaching people to expect God, a group of drunks and even a door knob to take away their desire to drink is self-defeating and most certainly guarantees plenty of failures.
Tiburon
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Originally Posted by tiburon88
Bugs,
I have never heard it put that way. If you stay sober and stay stopped AA gets the credit and if you "realapse" you get all the blame. That is 100% true!
AA is very rigid and people get frightened when a fellow member starts thinking "outside the box." The program is also very dogmatic. I mean who the heck cares how they got sober in 1939? Welcome to 2008 people!
I've started attending more NA meetings & find them much less rigid. I believe their book was written in the 80's. Unfortuantly, I still must deal with the "my sobriety date is better than yours".
Tiburon
In Recovery Since 2002
"Take What You Want & Leave The Rest"
I have never heard it put that way. If you stay sober and stay stopped AA gets the credit and if you "realapse" you get all the blame. That is 100% true!
AA is very rigid and people get frightened when a fellow member starts thinking "outside the box." The program is also very dogmatic. I mean who the heck cares how they got sober in 1939? Welcome to 2008 people!
I've started attending more NA meetings & find them much less rigid. I believe their book was written in the 80's. Unfortuantly, I still must deal with the "my sobriety date is better than yours".
Tiburon
In Recovery Since 2002
"Take What You Want & Leave The Rest"
IF what you say is true then why are you going to AA?
Why would someone go to a program they feel is rigid and dogmatic?
I do have to say that what you and bugs describe is not the program I know but you have the right to your opinion. If you don't like AA then leave it alone. No one is forcing you to have anything to do with it.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
If I told you all I was living with a woman that I despised because she tells me to do things I disagree with and I think she smells bad and her feet are really calloused and she is buck toothed and stands for everything I am against what would you all call me?
I know what I would call me.................... A damn fool!!!
Oh no I am not a fool, you see she gives me things that I want and keeps giving me things I want even though I talk about her like a dog!!!
Now what do I call me? An ungrateful SOB, or a hypocrite?
I know what I would call me.................... A damn fool!!!
Oh no I am not a fool, you see she gives me things that I want and keeps giving me things I want even though I talk about her like a dog!!!
Now what do I call me? An ungrateful SOB, or a hypocrite?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
I always appreciate what you have to say nandm, but I am curious to the "program" you speak of.
Are you powerless?
Do you turn your will and life over to a "higher power"?
Do you practice Bill Wilsons 12 steps?
This is the program I speak of.
Are you powerless?
Do you turn your will and life over to a "higher power"?
Do you practice Bill Wilsons 12 steps?
This is the program I speak of.
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