Issue with an AA member
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Some groups frown on swearing and it's not allowed. O.k. that's their rule. Some groups you aren't allowed to share if you're late. Again their rules.
I've never attended a meeting where members were dropping the N-word or using derogatory comments against gays while sharing.
However, I have heard such slurs after a meeting. Not often mind you but I have heard them.
If I heard such remarks during a meeting and it appeared others weren't fazed I'd think about attending elsewhere.
When I was attending AA in San Diego Cal. there was a meeting walking distance from where I stayed. I found it offensive that bashing the Catholic church was considered acceptable by some members while sharing their views on organized religion.
Which was one I stopped attending
I've never attended a meeting where members were dropping the N-word or using derogatory comments against gays while sharing.
However, I have heard such slurs after a meeting. Not often mind you but I have heard them.
If I heard such remarks during a meeting and it appeared others weren't fazed I'd think about attending elsewhere.
When I was attending AA in San Diego Cal. there was a meeting walking distance from where I stayed. I found it offensive that bashing the Catholic church was considered acceptable by some members while sharing their views on organized religion.
Which was one I stopped attending
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
the concept “if you’re uncomfortable, leave” usually ends up with the loudest and nastiest and most judgmental ones “owning” the group.
someone mentioned up above that several women left a meeting. they did not mention that this was something that gave any concern to the remaining folks.
it would concern me greatly if no attempts were made to have a meeting be welcoming and safe for everyone and then i watched a certain demographic leave .
if i were part of a group where women were leaving, or Muslims were leaving, or First Nations people were leaving, and the response was”shrug, they must have felt uncomfortable...too bad for them ! they really should do an inventory and figure that out! alright, let’s carry on!!” ....then, i would know there would be need for the group to look at ourselves.
someone mentioned up above that several women left a meeting. they did not mention that this was something that gave any concern to the remaining folks.
it would concern me greatly if no attempts were made to have a meeting be welcoming and safe for everyone and then i watched a certain demographic leave .
if i were part of a group where women were leaving, or Muslims were leaving, or First Nations people were leaving, and the response was”shrug, they must have felt uncomfortable...too bad for them ! they really should do an inventory and figure that out! alright, let’s carry on!!” ....then, i would know there would be need for the group to look at ourselves.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
Originally Posted by abgator 
Disagree with the last post completely. It's a free country and people have a right to be sh!t heads if they want to be.
Personally, I think the best thing to do is ignore it and walk away if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Isn't part of the steps to let go, forgive, accept that you're not in control of other people and your surroundings? If there's a group of 4 guys telling racist jokes or talking bad about gays after a meeting and you're in disagreement.....Sorry, but that's your problem. It doesn't matter if their opinions are right or wrong based on your own moral code. It's not up to you to judge them.
If you're uncomfortable, leave.
Personally, I think the best thing to do is ignore it and walk away if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Isn't part of the steps to let go, forgive, accept that you're not in control of other people and your surroundings? If there's a group of 4 guys telling racist jokes or talking bad about gays after a meeting and you're in disagreement.....Sorry, but that's your problem. It doesn't matter if their opinions are right or wrong based on your own moral code. It's not up to you to judge them.
If you're uncomfortable, leave.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,909
If I were to leave a group due to personal discomfort, I would be putting my welfare before the welfare of the group, which doesn't align with the principles and traditions that I attempt to uphold. Keeping that in mind, I would stay and be and work towards the change I would like to see.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by nez
If I were to leave a group due to personal discomfort, I would be putting my welfare before the welfare of the group, which doesn't align with the principles and traditions that I attempt to uphold. Keeping that in mind, I would stay and be and work towards the change I would like to see.
Now, someone puts their hands on me or another member I will call 911.
And if a woman walked in alone wearing a hijab and a member made a nasty comment I certainly would walk over to the woman and say hello
AA is a room filled with grown adults. Unfortunately some are crude, some may rip you off, practice the 13th step, won't shut up, don't turn off their phone on and on.
We're a group of people who normally wouldn't mix trying to help the alcoholic who still suffers.
Of course it makes life easier when people treat others with respect.
And I have found this to be the case with a majority of people in the rooms.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by nez
If I were to leave a group due to personal discomfort, I would be putting my welfare before the welfare of the group, which doesn't align with the principles and traditions that I attempt to uphold. Keeping that in mind, I would stay and be and work towards the change I would like to see.
Now, someone puts their hands on me or another member I will call 911.
And if a woman walked in wearing a hijab and a member made a nasty comment I certainly would walk over to the woman and say hello
AA is a room filled with grown adults. Unfortunately some are crude, some may rip you off, practice the 13th step, won't shut up, don't turn off their phone on and on.
We're a group of people who normally wouldn't mix trying to help the alcoholic who still suffers.
Of course it makes life easier when people treat others with respect.
Fortunately, I have found this to be true with a majority of people in the rooms.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posts: 517
Central Service Office guidelines on how to deal with this kind of behavior.
SAFETY AND A.A.: OUR COMMON WELFARE
Safety is an important issue within A.A. — one that all groups and members
can address to develop workable solutions and help keep our meetings safe
based on the fundamental principles of the Fellowship.
“Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must con-
tinue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual
welfare follows close afterward.”
—Tradition One (Long Form)
A.A. groups are spiritual entities made up of alcoholics who gather for the sole purpose of staying
sober and helping other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. Yet, we are not immune to the difficulties
that affect the rest of humanity.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a microcosm of the larger society within which we exist. Problems
found in the outside world can also make their way into the rooms of A.A. As we strive to share
in a spirit of trust, both at meetings and individually with sponsors and friends, it is reasonable
for each member to expect a meaningful level of safety. Those attending A.A. meetings derive
a benefit by providing a safe environment in which alcoholics can focus on gaining and main-
taining sobriety. The group can then fulfill its primary purpose — to carry the A.A. message to
the alcoholic who still suffers. For this reason, groups and members discuss the topic of safety.
Autonomy and Group Action
Because A.A., as such, ought never be organized, as indicated in Tradition Nine, it is individual
members and groups who ensure that all members feel as safe as possible in A.A.
There is no government within A.A. and no central authority, legal or otherwise, to control
or direct the behavior of A.A. members. As embodied in the Fourth Tradition, the formation and
operation of an A.A. Group resides with the group conscience of its members. A.A. groups and
service entities such as areas, districts, intergroup/central offices are autonomous.
Recognizing that safety is an issue of importance to its members, many groups have taken
actions to keep distractions and disruptions to a minimum within the context of the group.
A.A. Membership
A.A. membership has never been contingent on any set of behavioral or moral standards —
beyond those founded on common sense, courtesy, and the timeless values of kindness, toler-
ance and love.
A.A.’s Third Tradition states that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop
drinking. This brings an openness that helps to define our character as a diverse Fellowship; yet
it also requires us to be mindful of our group and individual safety.
Some people, however, come into A.A. without an understanding of the type of behavior that is
appropriate in meetings or in the company of other members. A person can be sober in A.A., yet still
not understand what is acceptable.
Dealing with Disruptions
While most groups operate with a healthy balance of spontaneity and structure, there are a
number of situations that can threaten group unity and challenge the safety of the group and its
members. Often this can center on disruptive individuals, those who are confrontational, aggres-
sive, or those who are simply unwilling to put the needs of the group first. Such behavior can
hijack the focus of a meeting and frighten members, new and old.
Some groups have developed plans for addressing disruptive behavior and have estab-
lished procedures through their group conscience to ensure that the group’s welfare is protected.
In many cases, disruptive behavior is pre-empted by having the chairperson state the expecta-
tions for behavior in the meeting.
Some groups include in their opening announcements that illegal and disruptive behavior
is not tolerated. Still other groups have asked disruptive members to leave the meeting. Addi-
tionally, groups and members always have the option to call the appropriate authorities if disrup-
tive behavior continues or anyone’s safety is at risk.
Group Safety and Unity
Situations that groups have addressed through their group conscience include, sexual harass-
ment or stalking; threats of violence; bullying; financial coercion; racial intolerance; sexual orien-
tation or gender identification intolerance; pressuring A.A. members into a particular point of view
or belief relating to medical treatments and/or medications, politics, religion, or other outside
issues. In addition, there may be other behaviors that go on outside of typical meeting times that
may affect whether someone feels safe to return to the group.
Some groups have their own guidelines or procedures to help keep the meeting safe. A.A.
members can speak to those who are acting inappropriately. Situations can be discussed at
business meetings to come to a group conscience about how to handle a situation. As a last
resort, the disruptive member may be asked to stop attending the meeting for a specific period
of time. Groups that take this drastic action do it in order to preserve the common welfare of the
group and to maintain A.A. unity.
In any situation, if a person’s safety is in jeopardy, or the situation breaches the law, the
individuals involved can take appropriate action to ensure their safety. Calling the proper author-
ities does not go against any A.A. Traditions. Anonymity is not a cloak protecting criminal or
inappropriate behavior.
Inappropriate or predatory behavior, such as unwanted sexual attention or targeting vul-
nerable members can be especially troublesome. These behaviors may go on outside of typical
meeting times. While A.A. members can be caring and supportive to those affected, we are not
professionals trained to handle such situations. Law enforcement or other professional help may
be necessary.
Victims of inappropriate behavior, harassment or predators can let the group know about
such situations, often through a sponsor or trusted friend. This way the group is informed, and
members can help address the situation and curtail further problems. Group discussion should
be focused on creating an environment where all alcoholics can find and maintain sobriety.
A.A. and the Law
Common sense and experience suggest that A.A. membership does not grant immunity from
local regulations and being at an A.A. meeting does not put anyone beyond the jurisdiction of
law enforcement officers. As individuals, A.A. members are also “citizens of the world,” and as
citizens we are not above the law.
Through the group conscience process, many groups have established guidelines regard-
ing when it may be appropriate to call authorities and handle a given situation within the legal
system. No A.A. group has to tolerate illegal behavior and any activity within an A.A. meeting is
subject to the same laws that apply outside the meeting. The nature of illegal acts that groups
have faced include violence, embezzlement, theft of property, drug sales at a meeting, and more.
Emergencies
Injuries, accidents, fires, etc., sometimes do occur during meetings. To accommodate these
situations, groups can also develop plans and procedures, often in consultation with their land-
lord or local authorities. Addressing an emergency situation is more important than continuing
the meeting, and members should not hesitate to call emergency personnel in critical situations.
Keeping the Focus on Our Primary Purpose
It is hoped that our common suffering as alcoholics and our common solution in A.A. would
transcend most issues and curtail negative behaviors. As noted in the Big Book, Alcoholics
Anonymous, “Love and tolerance of others is our code.”
Safety, however, is important to the functioning of the group. By maintaining order and
safety in meetings, the group as a whole will benefit and members will be able to focus on re-
covery from alcoholism and a life
of sobriety.
Ultimately, the experience of how these situations are handled can be as varied as our
Fellowship. Good judgment and common sense, informed by the Twelve Traditions, seem to
provide the best guide.
What Can Groups and Members Do?
Groups and members can discuss the topic of safety, to raise awareness in the Fellowship and
seek through sponsorship, workshops and meetings, to create as safe an environment as pos-
sible for the newcomer, and other members or potential members. This can be the subject of
sharing among groups at the district or area level.
Here are some helpful suggestions and reminders:
• Talk about issues of safety before they arise.
• Safety is something each member attending an A.A. meeting can be mindful of.
• Communicate clearly what A.A. is and what it is not.
• Sponsorship plays an important role and sponsors can be helpful in pointing out
warning signs or unhealthy situations to sponsees and newcomers.
• A.A. members who are concerned about the words or actions of a sponsor
or other member, may find it helpful to speak to someone they trust, their A.A. group,
or a professional, as needed.
• Include Safety and the A.A. Meeting Environment as topics for a group inventory.
• Consider developing group guidelines and procedures on safety.
SAFETY AND A.A.: OUR COMMON WELFARE
Safety is an important issue within A.A. — one that all groups and members
can address to develop workable solutions and help keep our meetings safe
based on the fundamental principles of the Fellowship.
“Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must con-
tinue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual
welfare follows close afterward.”
—Tradition One (Long Form)
A.A. groups are spiritual entities made up of alcoholics who gather for the sole purpose of staying
sober and helping other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. Yet, we are not immune to the difficulties
that affect the rest of humanity.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a microcosm of the larger society within which we exist. Problems
found in the outside world can also make their way into the rooms of A.A. As we strive to share
in a spirit of trust, both at meetings and individually with sponsors and friends, it is reasonable
for each member to expect a meaningful level of safety. Those attending A.A. meetings derive
a benefit by providing a safe environment in which alcoholics can focus on gaining and main-
taining sobriety. The group can then fulfill its primary purpose — to carry the A.A. message to
the alcoholic who still suffers. For this reason, groups and members discuss the topic of safety.
Autonomy and Group Action
Because A.A., as such, ought never be organized, as indicated in Tradition Nine, it is individual
members and groups who ensure that all members feel as safe as possible in A.A.
There is no government within A.A. and no central authority, legal or otherwise, to control
or direct the behavior of A.A. members. As embodied in the Fourth Tradition, the formation and
operation of an A.A. Group resides with the group conscience of its members. A.A. groups and
service entities such as areas, districts, intergroup/central offices are autonomous.
Recognizing that safety is an issue of importance to its members, many groups have taken
actions to keep distractions and disruptions to a minimum within the context of the group.
A.A. Membership
A.A. membership has never been contingent on any set of behavioral or moral standards —
beyond those founded on common sense, courtesy, and the timeless values of kindness, toler-
ance and love.
A.A.’s Third Tradition states that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop
drinking. This brings an openness that helps to define our character as a diverse Fellowship; yet
it also requires us to be mindful of our group and individual safety.
Some people, however, come into A.A. without an understanding of the type of behavior that is
appropriate in meetings or in the company of other members. A person can be sober in A.A., yet still
not understand what is acceptable.
Dealing with Disruptions
While most groups operate with a healthy balance of spontaneity and structure, there are a
number of situations that can threaten group unity and challenge the safety of the group and its
members. Often this can center on disruptive individuals, those who are confrontational, aggres-
sive, or those who are simply unwilling to put the needs of the group first. Such behavior can
hijack the focus of a meeting and frighten members, new and old.
Some groups have developed plans for addressing disruptive behavior and have estab-
lished procedures through their group conscience to ensure that the group’s welfare is protected.
In many cases, disruptive behavior is pre-empted by having the chairperson state the expecta-
tions for behavior in the meeting.
Some groups include in their opening announcements that illegal and disruptive behavior
is not tolerated. Still other groups have asked disruptive members to leave the meeting. Addi-
tionally, groups and members always have the option to call the appropriate authorities if disrup-
tive behavior continues or anyone’s safety is at risk.
Group Safety and Unity
Situations that groups have addressed through their group conscience include, sexual harass-
ment or stalking; threats of violence; bullying; financial coercion; racial intolerance; sexual orien-
tation or gender identification intolerance; pressuring A.A. members into a particular point of view
or belief relating to medical treatments and/or medications, politics, religion, or other outside
issues. In addition, there may be other behaviors that go on outside of typical meeting times that
may affect whether someone feels safe to return to the group.
Some groups have their own guidelines or procedures to help keep the meeting safe. A.A.
members can speak to those who are acting inappropriately. Situations can be discussed at
business meetings to come to a group conscience about how to handle a situation. As a last
resort, the disruptive member may be asked to stop attending the meeting for a specific period
of time. Groups that take this drastic action do it in order to preserve the common welfare of the
group and to maintain A.A. unity.
In any situation, if a person’s safety is in jeopardy, or the situation breaches the law, the
individuals involved can take appropriate action to ensure their safety. Calling the proper author-
ities does not go against any A.A. Traditions. Anonymity is not a cloak protecting criminal or
inappropriate behavior.
Inappropriate or predatory behavior, such as unwanted sexual attention or targeting vul-
nerable members can be especially troublesome. These behaviors may go on outside of typical
meeting times. While A.A. members can be caring and supportive to those affected, we are not
professionals trained to handle such situations. Law enforcement or other professional help may
be necessary.
Victims of inappropriate behavior, harassment or predators can let the group know about
such situations, often through a sponsor or trusted friend. This way the group is informed, and
members can help address the situation and curtail further problems. Group discussion should
be focused on creating an environment where all alcoholics can find and maintain sobriety.
A.A. and the Law
Common sense and experience suggest that A.A. membership does not grant immunity from
local regulations and being at an A.A. meeting does not put anyone beyond the jurisdiction of
law enforcement officers. As individuals, A.A. members are also “citizens of the world,” and as
citizens we are not above the law.
Through the group conscience process, many groups have established guidelines regard-
ing when it may be appropriate to call authorities and handle a given situation within the legal
system. No A.A. group has to tolerate illegal behavior and any activity within an A.A. meeting is
subject to the same laws that apply outside the meeting. The nature of illegal acts that groups
have faced include violence, embezzlement, theft of property, drug sales at a meeting, and more.
Emergencies
Injuries, accidents, fires, etc., sometimes do occur during meetings. To accommodate these
situations, groups can also develop plans and procedures, often in consultation with their land-
lord or local authorities. Addressing an emergency situation is more important than continuing
the meeting, and members should not hesitate to call emergency personnel in critical situations.
Keeping the Focus on Our Primary Purpose
It is hoped that our common suffering as alcoholics and our common solution in A.A. would
transcend most issues and curtail negative behaviors. As noted in the Big Book, Alcoholics
Anonymous, “Love and tolerance of others is our code.”
Safety, however, is important to the functioning of the group. By maintaining order and
safety in meetings, the group as a whole will benefit and members will be able to focus on re-
covery from alcoholism and a life
of sobriety.
Ultimately, the experience of how these situations are handled can be as varied as our
Fellowship. Good judgment and common sense, informed by the Twelve Traditions, seem to
provide the best guide.
What Can Groups and Members Do?
Groups and members can discuss the topic of safety, to raise awareness in the Fellowship and
seek through sponsorship, workshops and meetings, to create as safe an environment as pos-
sible for the newcomer, and other members or potential members. This can be the subject of
sharing among groups at the district or area level.
Here are some helpful suggestions and reminders:
• Talk about issues of safety before they arise.
• Safety is something each member attending an A.A. meeting can be mindful of.
• Communicate clearly what A.A. is and what it is not.
• Sponsorship plays an important role and sponsors can be helpful in pointing out
warning signs or unhealthy situations to sponsees and newcomers.
• A.A. members who are concerned about the words or actions of a sponsor
or other member, may find it helpful to speak to someone they trust, their A.A. group,
or a professional, as needed.
• Include Safety and the A.A. Meeting Environment as topics for a group inventory.
• Consider developing group guidelines and procedures on safety.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
I obv find this topic engaging and interesting in an academic sense. BUT at the end of the day, my personal peace means not dwelling on all this IRL. That frees me to be most helpful to others, remembering that we are about attraction not promotion, which can def mean how I display my opinions, or don't.
Perhaps I am yet again fortunate to live in a major city where there is an abundance of meetings. Group conscious meetings - some held monthly, others when called and seconded by members - and if I don't cotton to what is decided by the group, I can keep it movin'.
So peace-ing out on this good discussion
Perhaps I am yet again fortunate to live in a major city where there is an abundance of meetings. Group conscious meetings - some held monthly, others when called and seconded by members - and if I don't cotton to what is decided by the group, I can keep it movin'.
So peace-ing out on this good discussion
Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Gainesville, Fl
Posts: 435
Originally Posted by Gal220
Of course they have a right to be racist; no one said they didn't. And I have a right and a responsibility to say something. But they also have to face the consequences of their actions, which means getting called out. If we allow racism to continue, we are complicit. I have just as much right to be at an open AA meeting as anyone else, and I will not just leave. That merely sends the message that all are not welcome. This person is so far confining their hatred to before and after the meeting. So I would behave just as I would in any public situation and say something. I would also address it with the club if the meeting was in a club.
Like August, I'm fully capable of overhearing people saying things I don't agree with, ignoring it, and keep on going. Personally, I'm more annoyed IRL with social justice warriors who have to make everything "their cause" than I am closed minded or bigoted people who live in their own world.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
abgator:
Kaneda is no "generic" warrior. He is speaking first-hand. Moreover, he should not have to deal with this on his own simply because he might happen to be the only First Nation person (or "minority" of your choosing) in the room at the time. I should not have to deal with this on my own simply because I might be the only one in the (entirely white-skinned) room who has brown-skinned children.
It's very sad to me that you consider this to be not your problem. That's your right, naturally. You may, however, want to give it some serious thought - why do you think it is that these (we) social justice warriors bother you so much?
Originally Posted by Kaneda8888
In terms of why this person's attitude makes me uncomfortable is because I am from a minority in my country. I grew up having to grin and bear racism, sometimes overt, sometimes casual. Over time, I grew a thicker skin but racist comments made at you still irk. Last year my daughter, whilst sitting on a bus, was racially abused and spat on by an older man. Other folks on the bus simply sat there and did nothing.
It's very sad to me that you consider this to be not your problem. That's your right, naturally. You may, however, want to give it some serious thought - why do you think it is that these (we) social justice warriors bother you so much?
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I read through this thread now and see lots of advice, wishful thinking, desires that ppl behave as someone else wants them to, suggestions on how to get others to conform to our/my/his/her way of thinking so the person in question will be OK......
Sure would be nice if there was something....... like a program or something..... maybe a set of steps - aimed at facing and being rid of resentments or maybe something that would help us connect with a Power greater than ourselves upon which we can put our reliance. Upon doing so, we'll realize that what other people think about us.....or do around us...... doesn't need to have any impact upon us.
It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us.
So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making.
It's been MY experience that when I'm spiritually grounded and the focus of my life is on God's will rather than what I want/expect/hope for, it's impossible to offend or upset me. Therefore, when I catch myself upset about something (which certainly happens), it's a wonderful "caution sign" on the path of my life - there to remind me I'M the one who's off the spiritual beam and the thing that I "think" is a problem isn't really the problem. The problem is me...... being off the beam. Hence, all my problems really are of my own making.
Sure would be nice if there was something....... like a program or something..... maybe a set of steps - aimed at facing and being rid of resentments or maybe something that would help us connect with a Power greater than ourselves upon which we can put our reliance. Upon doing so, we'll realize that what other people think about us.....or do around us...... doesn't need to have any impact upon us.
It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us.
So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making.
It's been MY experience that when I'm spiritually grounded and the focus of my life is on God's will rather than what I want/expect/hope for, it's impossible to offend or upset me. Therefore, when I catch myself upset about something (which certainly happens), it's a wonderful "caution sign" on the path of my life - there to remind me I'M the one who's off the spiritual beam and the thing that I "think" is a problem isn't really the problem. The problem is me...... being off the beam. Hence, all my problems really are of my own making.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
That's absolutely beautiful, DayTrader.
In a perfect world, where we're all on an equal playing field and natural disasters never occur and humans never visit their crap on others.
If I am disturbed that another person is allowed to spew his racism or misogony or other prejudice without impunity, I refuse to believe that means there is something wrong with me.
Perhaps I have more learning to do.
Perhaps I'm off beam.
But I hardly believe that all atrocities in the world need to be born by the victims with good spiritual grace that finds the inward "cause," and if that cause is not found, there is something wrong with them. If someone can explain to me how that makes sense, I will be eternally grateful, because honestly, I think it's the one thing that most puts me off AA above any other thing. And I think AA is a pretty darned good program, considering.
Hold up, though.
I think you really kind of took it over the top. Which is fine because it's not the first time it went there and I sincerely would like to understand the answer to my question. However...
I personally am not saying anyone else has to change their thinking, their minds, or their ways. (I wish they would, of course, but I don't have that power nor do I have the right.) I'm just saying that anyone should be able to speak up before or after a meeting when their sensibilities are offended. So maybe your comments had nothing to do with what I was saying. Maybe I wasn't included in your comments. But actually, thinking back on this thread, I don't remember anybody saying anything about telling people how they should think? I believe this whole discussion has centered around whether it's ok to confront another member over speech one finds objectionable. At least that's where my head's been...
In a perfect world, where we're all on an equal playing field and natural disasters never occur and humans never visit their crap on others.
If I am disturbed that another person is allowed to spew his racism or misogony or other prejudice without impunity, I refuse to believe that means there is something wrong with me.
Perhaps I have more learning to do.
Perhaps I'm off beam.
But I hardly believe that all atrocities in the world need to be born by the victims with good spiritual grace that finds the inward "cause," and if that cause is not found, there is something wrong with them. If someone can explain to me how that makes sense, I will be eternally grateful, because honestly, I think it's the one thing that most puts me off AA above any other thing. And I think AA is a pretty darned good program, considering.
Hold up, though.
I think you really kind of took it over the top. Which is fine because it's not the first time it went there and I sincerely would like to understand the answer to my question. However...
I personally am not saying anyone else has to change their thinking, their minds, or their ways. (I wish they would, of course, but I don't have that power nor do I have the right.) I'm just saying that anyone should be able to speak up before or after a meeting when their sensibilities are offended. So maybe your comments had nothing to do with what I was saying. Maybe I wasn't included in your comments. But actually, thinking back on this thread, I don't remember anybody saying anything about telling people how they should think? I believe this whole discussion has centered around whether it's ok to confront another member over speech one finds objectionable. At least that's where my head's been...
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Obladi
That's absolutely beautiful, DayTrader.
In a perfect world, where we're all on an equal playing field and natural disasters never occur and humans never visit their crap on others.
If I am disturbed that another person is allowed to spew his racism or misogony or other prejudice without impunity, I refuse to believe that means there is something wrong with me.
Perhaps I have more learning to do.
Perhaps I'm off beam.
But I hardly believe that all atrocities in the world need to be born by the victims with good spiritual grace that finds the inward "cause," and if that cause is not found, there is something wrong with them. If someone can explain to me how that makes sense, I will be eternally grateful, because honestly, I think it's the one thing that most puts me off AA above any other thing. And I think AA is a pretty darned good program, considering.
Hold up, though.
I think you really kind of took it over the top. Which is fine because it's not the first time it went there and I sincerely would like to understand the answer to my question. However...
I personally am not saying anyone else has to change their thinking, their minds, or their ways. (I wish they would, of course, but I don't have that power nor do I have the right.) I'm just saying that anyone should be able to speak up before or after a meeting when their sensibilities are offended. So maybe your comments had nothing to do with what I was saying. Maybe I wasn't included in your comments. But actually, thinking back on this thread, I don't remember anybody saying anything about telling people how they should think? I believe this whole discussion has centered around whether it's ok to confront another member over speech one finds objectionable. At least that's where my head's been...
In a perfect world, where we're all on an equal playing field and natural disasters never occur and humans never visit their crap on others.
If I am disturbed that another person is allowed to spew his racism or misogony or other prejudice without impunity, I refuse to believe that means there is something wrong with me.
Perhaps I have more learning to do.
Perhaps I'm off beam.
But I hardly believe that all atrocities in the world need to be born by the victims with good spiritual grace that finds the inward "cause," and if that cause is not found, there is something wrong with them. If someone can explain to me how that makes sense, I will be eternally grateful, because honestly, I think it's the one thing that most puts me off AA above any other thing. And I think AA is a pretty darned good program, considering.
Hold up, though.
I think you really kind of took it over the top. Which is fine because it's not the first time it went there and I sincerely would like to understand the answer to my question. However...
I personally am not saying anyone else has to change their thinking, their minds, or their ways. (I wish they would, of course, but I don't have that power nor do I have the right.) I'm just saying that anyone should be able to speak up before or after a meeting when their sensibilities are offended. So maybe your comments had nothing to do with what I was saying. Maybe I wasn't included in your comments. But actually, thinking back on this thread, I don't remember anybody saying anything about telling people how they should think? I believe this whole discussion has centered around whether it's ok to confront another member over speech one finds objectionable. At least that's where my head's been...
So go ahead. The meeting is over (or hasn't begun.)
Go over....have your say.
Of course the other person might say a few words too.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
And if the other persons basically says screw you and continues... then what?
If this were to happen in a work place there can be repercussions but at an AA meeting?
Most AA groups have guidelines to follow during a meeting but before and after... no.
This is where common courtesy and common sense comes in.
Unfortunately, there are people in AA who will make comments that will upset others just like there are people down the block that don't clean their front lawn.
It's a free country so.. tough toenails. Mind your own business.
Now, if one wants to take things to the next level... but it physical or legal that's certainly an option.
If this were to happen in a work place there can be repercussions but at an AA meeting?
Most AA groups have guidelines to follow during a meeting but before and after... no.
This is where common courtesy and common sense comes in.
Unfortunately, there are people in AA who will make comments that will upset others just like there are people down the block that don't clean their front lawn.
It's a free country so.. tough toenails. Mind your own business.
Now, if one wants to take things to the next level... but it physical or legal that's certainly an option.
I'm straight and white and from a Christian background. I can choose to stay quiet if I want. My friends and family and fellow humans who are minorities in this country don't have a choice, though. They have to deal with jerks--sometimes violent jerks--on a regular basis. Am I really supposed to "mind my own business?" Attacking minorities IS my business. It affects all of us. We're all people who deserve respect.
Yes, it's a free country. People can spew hatred. And the rest of us--nice, normal people--can say that we don't agree. Simple.
And, disclaimer, because it's the Internet and it's hard to read people's intentions--none of this is meant to sound combative. But I am passionate about it. People I love have been subjected to too much crap for me to not care. Outside an AA meeting or not.
AA Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 2,983
In my first year I ...
threw a chair at a meeting
put my hands on another man in anger
smashed a coffee cup on the ground
I'm no saint!
I also made immediate and direct amends for those wrongs under the guidance of my sponsor
threw a chair at a meeting
put my hands on another man in anger
smashed a coffee cup on the ground
I'm no saint!
I also made immediate and direct amends for those wrongs under the guidance of my sponsor
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
So go ahead. The meeting is over (or hasn't begun.)
Go over....have your say.
Of course the other person might say a few words too.
Go over....have your say.
Of course the other person might say a few words too.
I'm not such a dolt to think they wouldn't.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by CupofJoe
Yeah, I've had people say screw you and carry on. I've been taunted, made fun of, etc. So what? I don't want to sit back and say nothing if people are saying hateful things about another entire group of people. Sometimes I've had good discussions with people and I've even seen a couple of people open up and slowly start to change. If we don't say anything, nothing changes. Love, compassion--we have to speak up to hate. I'm always courteous. And I use common sense. But if I'm involved in a conversation and someone says something crappy, I think it's important to challenge them, kindly.
I'm straight and white and from a Christian background. I can choose to stay quiet if I want. My friends and family and fellow humans who are minorities in this country don't have a choice, though. They have to deal with jerks--sometimes violent jerks--on a regular basis. Am I really supposed to "mind my own business?" Attacking minorities IS my business. It affects all of us. We're all people who deserve respect.
Yes, it's a free country. People can spew hatred. And the rest of us--nice, normal people--can say that we don't agree. Simple.
And, disclaimer, because it's the Internet and it's hard to read people's intentions--none of this is meant to sound combative. But I am passionate about it. People I love have been subjected to too much crap for me to not care. Outside an AA meeting or not.
I'm straight and white and from a Christian background. I can choose to stay quiet if I want. My friends and family and fellow humans who are minorities in this country don't have a choice, though. They have to deal with jerks--sometimes violent jerks--on a regular basis. Am I really supposed to "mind my own business?" Attacking minorities IS my business. It affects all of us. We're all people who deserve respect.
Yes, it's a free country. People can spew hatred. And the rest of us--nice, normal people--can say that we don't agree. Simple.
And, disclaimer, because it's the Internet and it's hard to read people's intentions--none of this is meant to sound combative. But I am passionate about it. People I love have been subjected to too much crap for me to not care. Outside an AA meeting or not.
I don't think anyone is suggesting a member has to.
Go right ahead.
If something you hear before/after a meeting bothers you... have your say.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
DayTrader for the ultimate win.
AA is a really simple program of suggestions about how we get and stay sober. That's it.
"When I am disturbed [by racial comments]?" can prompt me to consider when I am judgmental of others, for any reason. Who do I get a little squiggly around because of some preconceived idea? Pretty sure sometimes someone else in this world gets a sideways glance or something from me, at least in my head. It's not about equating the literal disturbance or condoning someone's behavior.
These are all examples of real life, relationship attitudes, opinions, and ideals. Relationship meaning....how we relate to any and every person on earth. AA helps us "grow along spiritual" guidelines so we do better about it. Apply that as you will.
I don't have any business making it my task to take someone aside to tell them what I think about them saying or believing anything. I'm in AA to stay sober and help others. When it comes to relationships in the rooms, the BEST thing I can do is to be the kind of person possible. When I become friends with someone - or I sponsor someone- from AA, the program guides first. Wherever things go in that relationship, friendship or sponsorship is up to my spiritual maintenance- ie being a good gal.
It's a waste of my time to call someone out for what I deem as bad behavior, talk etc. It's not condoning it. It's participating in AA as the program is laid out, applying my program to my life and supporting others "who want what we have." Someone who is angry or racist or sexist or whatever....I might not think they are spiritually fit, to put it mildly, but in the meetings and IMO, the before and after of AA....it's not my job to get into any of this.
AA is a really simple program of suggestions about how we get and stay sober. That's it.
"When I am disturbed [by racial comments]?" can prompt me to consider when I am judgmental of others, for any reason. Who do I get a little squiggly around because of some preconceived idea? Pretty sure sometimes someone else in this world gets a sideways glance or something from me, at least in my head. It's not about equating the literal disturbance or condoning someone's behavior.
These are all examples of real life, relationship attitudes, opinions, and ideals. Relationship meaning....how we relate to any and every person on earth. AA helps us "grow along spiritual" guidelines so we do better about it. Apply that as you will.
I don't have any business making it my task to take someone aside to tell them what I think about them saying or believing anything. I'm in AA to stay sober and help others. When it comes to relationships in the rooms, the BEST thing I can do is to be the kind of person possible. When I become friends with someone - or I sponsor someone- from AA, the program guides first. Wherever things go in that relationship, friendship or sponsorship is up to my spiritual maintenance- ie being a good gal.
It's a waste of my time to call someone out for what I deem as bad behavior, talk etc. It's not condoning it. It's participating in AA as the program is laid out, applying my program to my life and supporting others "who want what we have." Someone who is angry or racist or sexist or whatever....I might not think they are spiritually fit, to put it mildly, but in the meetings and IMO, the before and after of AA....it's not my job to get into any of this.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
You're missing the point. If I or Kaneda or CupofJoe feel personally disturbed, it is our business to say so. And it does not necessarily point to any "defect" in our own characters.
It may say we love ourselves and we love others and we won't stand by and let such hateful behavior take a pass in the name of 'unity.'
It may say we love ourselves and we love others and we won't stand by and let such hateful behavior take a pass in the name of 'unity.'
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