Obladi

DayTrader, I was going to take this to PM because I was worried about things getting too heated in here, but since they did get a little warm... let me change tack a bit. I have enjoyed reading your insights throughout SR and I'm certain there's something to glean here, so I think maybe I'm just missing something.

Your comments "seem" to be in response to others, but they are almost if not entirely centered on either your experience or detached citations of the literature. I think this is deliberate, but I'm confused at your meaning. Are you correcting/guiding (some of) us or simply sharing what the BB instructs and your experience with that? If it's the former, I guess I'd benefit from some direct instruction - like specifically, what is it that you think I'm (or perhaps others are) missing? If it's the latter, I'm pretty sure I completely get what you're saying. I just don't entirely agree. If I lived in a vacuum, sure. Or as a hermit on a mountain, definitely. It behooves us to be at peace within ourselves, for sure. Anything external that disturbs that inner peace needs to be somehow... absorbed and quieted or more effectively externalized, at least at times. I cannot carry the weight of the world on my shoulders 24/7 or it will surely break me and I'll be no good to anyone.

All of that notwithstanding (or maybe taken into consideration), I stand by my conviction that it is my responsibility to myself and others and most of all to the higher power of my limited understanding to refute intolerance in the most loving way I can muster. S/He doesn't really care if I address that while I'm smoking on the porch outside of the meeting, at dinner with some work acquaintances, or in the line at the Piggly Wiggly. S/He just doesn't want me to have to breath in second-hand garbage and choke on the fumes. Not any more. No sir.

But anyhow, can you kindly clarify the intent of your recent posts?

O

August252015

Fusion

Me too, August, I understand, sadly, me too:

August252015

Guys, I'm just going to speak for myself here.

I'm not telling anyone what to do - I think I've made that clear when my posts have included stuff like "take that as you will" and "free to do as you feel best," to paraphrase myself.

I'm circling back and back again to the literature, the program, the BB and the principals. As Kaneda said, separating object and subject.

This has been an interesting discussion and what disturbs me? Unwillingness to listen to others, and the need to argue. OR bring true "outside issues" like racism, civil rights, gender equality, so on into the rooms.

That's what I see in some of the latest posts, like yours my friend O. And, we are SUPPOSED to talk from our own experiences. What has worked for us, what we have learned, so that we are actually NOT imposing what we think on others. ESH.

We aren't in AA to challenge each other's basic beliefs. That does not mean we shouldn't speak out one on one when we feel strongly. It does mean that we have options as far as group well being. Again, it's all laid out for us.

I don't find citing parts of the BB random nor unhelpful - I find that just like I did in English class or any other class, citations used to support discussion, written or discussed, are exactly pertinent.

At the end of the day, MY understanding of AA is that all are welcome, the common welfare comes first, and the mission is, as I've said, singular: to help the alcoholic who still suffers by sharing what we have done to get sober and live in recovery.

I can learn from all of you. As I say all the time, I don't vibe with AVRT, or terms from methods like the Beast or characterizing my journey as a battle, or...that doesn't mean I think anyone else is wrong.

It also doesn't mean, my friend Tatsy for example, that I can possibly be responsible for turning someone off of AA. I just don't have that power. Sure, someone can say it's my fault. In my experience, I've done that kind of blaming or power-shifting when I've disliked someone, or played the victim, or been fearful of something foreign and unknown to me, or not wanted to take control of something in my life.

This is ALL why the program comes first. We can all disagree and yet coexist, if we want to do so. I can seek peaceful relationships. I can bow out of things. In summary, we've got an organization with SUGGESTIONS and one that was created with as much thought, debate (things got heated, for example, about outside funding!), and discernment as humans looking to get well from alcoholism could do.

Take it or leave it. Y'all know I'm in - and I appreciate lively discussion too.

Peace.

DayTrader

My replies are, when I'm replying the way I feel I "should," based upon what I've experienced. If someone asks about issues with seeking God, or a difficulty understanding what powerless over alcohol means, or even about things that have nothing to do with AA principles / steps........ If I have direct experience with that subject, I'll talk (write) about that experience.

Often when I share ppl will assume I'm putting words or thoughts in their mouth (or head, i suppose...lol). Quite to the contrary, I try and openly discuss what I thought about something...... how those thoughts morphed over time, what investigating I've done on them, how I've challenged many of those "old" beliefs, and what I have net found to be the truth now..... as I understand it. Of course, what I believe now might be completely off base..... only I don't know it yet.

If there was something I used to think or do that but I now thing that stuff was "goofy".......and I say it was a goofy thought..... I'm only accusing myself of being goofy. Now if a reader wants to take what I say about myself, make it about them-self, and take it as a hurtful comment - well I guess that's anyone's right but it wasn't my intention nor would it be something I'd recommend. Here again, this sort of behavior was a staple in my life too, prior to learning how not to make everything about me. I still fail quite often, way more than I would like to but that said, I've always learned more and grown as a result of my failures....... vs my seeming victories.

Sometimes I'm able to type what I think.....other times not so well. The same is true for everyone, right? Sometimes we're successful in saying something in a manner that's kind, loving, understandable, etc. That said, when I'm spiritually centered, none of the derogatory comments, whether they're directed squarely at me or AA in general.....whether they're intentional or not, have an "impact" on me. I can see and read them, understand that that's where they typist is at that point in their life and they're sharing based upon what they know, at this moment, to be true.

Being honest, there are plenty of things I say that I suspect, as I'm typing them, may ruffle some feathers. While some folks decide to take that as antagonistic, or arrogant, or just me being a general jerk..... I do it in the hopes that there may just be a meaningful discussion that could result. Challenging beliefs can be tough though. Most of us are heavily biased that our thinking is the "right" thinking and we're all programmed to not want to admit that something we've heavily invested in is flawed.... or wrong. In my case, most of the most valuable things I've learned has come on the back side of discovering some looooooong held beliefs were off base.

.... I'll be back but for now, I have to focus on work.

Ken33xx

Ask for a group conscious after the meeting. Then express your concerns.

Or do like one woman did before the start of a meeting and speak out.

She said, "I don't come here to meet men. I've got a boyfriend . And I'm sick and tired of some guys in this room hitting on me."

You could have heard a pin drop after that.

Obladi

Yup, totally understand where you're coming from August. I've been listening. You actually are challenging my basic beliefs, but I'm not going to get into that because I think I do understand completely what you're saying. I just don't see it the same way you do.

Let me remind you that I didn't bring the "outside issue" into the room, Kaneda's obnoxious sometimes AA bloke did. I'd challenge you the same way I challenged abgator - what is it about my need to confront that type of behavior in the way I've described that is troubling to you?

I respect your right to believe what you do. Do you see my right to believe what I do as "unwillingness" and "the need to argue?" I see it as my truth. I see it as "practicing these principles in all of my affairs." Those principles don't get dropped at the threshold of AA, neither on the way in nor on the way out.

Anyhow, I asked DayTrader because I'm not as clear on his intent, where I think your stance and message is crystal clear.

With great affection,
O

p.s. You read a lot into what I wrote that I didn't mean. For instance, "random or unhelpful?" I didn't say or even insinuate that. And there is nothing "bad" about speaking from experience - it was just an observation, hon. I just reread what I wrote to DT to make sure it "sounded" as sincere as I meant it when I wrote it. Passes my own smell test, if you will. Perhaps first close your eyes, ascribe all of the best intentions to me, then read again. I think it will come out sounding different to you.

August252015

I wasn't picking on anyone including you O and I don't always go back to cite the exact words someone uses, sometimes I do, and here I think I just wrote ones that seemed synonymous or similar enough to your meaning as I read it.

And everything I wrote in my last post about unwillingness to listen, for example, wasn't meant to one person. I sincerely try not call someone out in a passive aggressive way! And I couldn't tell you who brought in the in or outside the mtg question as it's been bounced around alot thru the thread. So again, I'm not naming-without-naming anybody. Unless I did use your name

Carry on friends - go be sober, live well and take care of others

Cosima11

Well and that’s just it, I don’t have to have the experience of being black to know that racism is a real thing and to speak out against it (in a calm, inclusive, even “spiritual” way) when I see it taking place. I’m not sure it would matter when or how it’s addressed, just that it is at some point.

If you need to literally and personally experience discrimination in order for it to matter to you, then indeed there is no point in engaging further in a conversation about it. And for the record I’m not telling anyone their beliefs are wrong, just that there are ground rules that can and should be set to make everyone feel welcome and safe.

Cosima11

After re-reading my post I realize I've echoed some of what August said above.. and I guess would just like to clarify my point is the spiritual guidelines and ground rules that do exist to make everyone feel welcome frankly aren't working or being enforced effectively if people are still leaving due to feeling unwelcome.

The point where that becomes "our problem" as a group rather than "their problem" as an individual is the point where it becomes systematic. If racism and sexism are routinely ignored it would be a fair assumption for a newcomer to believe if they faced that sort of issue in the future nothing would be done or said about it.

fini

just a couple of things these last few posts leave me thinking:
how can racism, sexism et cetera be perceived as an “outside issue “ when, of course, they are “in the rooms”?

they are in the rooms because we are.

and when i don’t have experience being in a group that is often disparaged, it is no good me having an opinion about it; what i need to do is listen. listen to those whose experience it is. and from there, work on seeing my part in their experience, and the systems i am part of. so i can make the changes that are in my power to make.

that is a principle i hold in addition to “these principles”.

was thinking, further, today that “these principles” and the program are very specifically about the alcoholism-solution! about the personal “salvation”, in a manner of speaking. and the coherence as a group of individuals involved in that.

but the world, the bigger world, asks more of me than that. speaking up against hate, for example, is not exactly covered by the “steps” or laid out as a principle in a 12-step program. adding additional principles, such as justice for example, does not diminish the principles given in the steps. it widens them.
as such, i can understand why some see this widening as being outside the primary purpose of a meeting. and i agree: that is not the purpose. but i fail to see how the primary purpose can be well achieved if principles such as equality are not incorporated into meetings and the organization as a whole. that kind of thing. people belonging to certain demographics leaving is a good example of not being able to offer the primary purpose to everyone.

also, i have been thinking about the “whenever something disturbs me....”thingie. and i figure the book must be talking about things in a more, hm, personal realm. it can’t be that it is talking about atrocities done and folks being disturbed by that.
a parent “disturbed”by the murder of their child. people “disturbed” by a plane full of people shot down. by their brother’s cancer diagnosis. by ....xyz.
i assume the book is talking about me being disturbed by my reaction to the idiot giving me the finger while driving, or me being disturbed by not getting my way in planning an event with others, or me being disturbed by being very unfairly treated, or me getting in a knot of anger when interrupted....those kind of disturbances are oh-yes-so-inventoried.

just sharing ongoing ruminations.

Obladi

fini, it will come as no surprise that I agree with the substance of your post.

There's one claim though, that both you and August have made that I take issue with. You guys have way more AA background than I do, but I have done my reading, and so I don't understand this reiteration of the overly modest claim that AA is a merely a simple program to overcome alcoholism.

Are "these principles" only about the solution to alcoholism? I think not. We seek to rid ourselves of selfishness and self-centeredness. We seek to be honest and to right our wrongs promptly. Isn't the Prayer of Saint Francis considered to be an 11th step thing? Do the promises even mention being free of the compulsion to drink? No, they don't. They promise all manner of happiness and self-actualization, including being of service to humanity.

Being in fit spiritual condition simply can not be separated from being a decent human being who honors other human beings.

Grungehead

Yes they do. There's an entire set of promises that describe our sanity being returned and the problem being removed. There are a lot of promises throughout the Big Book, not just the ones read at the beginning of meetings (which are the 9th step promises).

10th Step Promises:

Alcoholics Anonymous 1st Edition pp. 84-85

August252015

The way I understand it - bringing outside issues in to the program (rooms, meetings, this thread if it is indeed an AA discussion) is exactly what we are doing here. And its evolution and disagreements has shown what happens: we've stopped talking about the sole message of the program itself.

Alcoholism doesn't mean drinking. Alcohol itself is not the problem. So, yes, the principles and the program are what "There is a Solution," the principles and the promises all lay out for us.

Ken33xx

I see this thread more about what groups can/can't do.

Groups can decide no one late to the meeting is allowed to share, no swearing, three minute shares ect.

Question: Can a group ban a person for harassment (13th stepping) Yes or no? Not sure but I know of two instances where member was told they aren't welcome.

Now the OP wrote:
In this case I believe the vulgar member in question isn't directing his comments necessarily at the OP but chatting with others before the meeting.

But regardless...can a group hold a vote and decide that certain speech not be allowed in the room before or after a meeting?

If this is permissible under the AA guidelines, ask for a vote.

If the vote doesn't go your way consider starting a new meeting.

Tommyh

that's why I keep my taking own inventory so I can stay on a peaceful level while these things work themselves out on a personal or group level
that allows me to stay out of the fight

fini

O, i don't think "these principles" are solely about recovery from alcoholism.
living by them is the suggested AA solution to alcoholism, along with the steps, but that does not exclude these principles being "more", or "for more", the life of any decent individual, as you put it.

"The way I understand it - bringing outside issues in to the program (rooms, meetings, this thread if it is indeed an AA discussion) is exactly what we are doing here."
this thread was started with this issue, August. it is about this issue. i am glad we are discussing it. some may see it as an outside issue, others do not.
hatred expressed or stirred up about others based on their belonging to certain groups is not an outside issue, for sure, to those belonging to those groups and not to me and many others.
nor did i understand this thread to be specified as an "AA discussion", but just a conversation about an issue with an AA member.

i have finally got my clarity back re selfishness, self-centredness, fear, dishonesty, doing inventory when disturbed. phew. i am glad they were mentioned up above in the thread. for me, those are the things in me that STOP me from speaking up. when i DON'T speak up, it is because of fear and my self-centeredness to take the easier, for-me-safer way, my unwillingness to take the harder way and to disrupt my comfort....my inventories reveal all those shortcomings when i silently stand by.
that is what i find over and over i need to make amends for: my silence in the face of injustice and bullying.

i am thankful that the ongoing discussions continued.

nez

I don't feel that spouting an antisocial or prejudicial rant is a good reason to ban a person from a meeting, that would be akin to a person being turned away from a hospital because they were bleeding too much.

While such a rant would undoubtedly produce an unpleasant environment, it can point people towards an opportunity for growth if viewed in the correct light by those participating.

After a rant, when it became time for me to share, I would share how I had been the object of such a tirade in the past, because I can easily find one. I have felt the affects of racism, misandry, xenophobia, etc, I believe we all have felt them at one time or another. It is part of the human condition. I would share about how it made me feel, how it effected or manifested itself in my active alcoholism, and how I deal with it in recovery. I can do this easily without crosstalk or referencing anyone else in the meeting, which in my experience only has a tendency to raise defenses, antagonism, and aggression levels in everyone present. Which is counter to the principles of the program.

After the meeting, I would approach the person that prompted my share and ask them in a conciliatory manner why they behave the way that they do. What is it that makes them have the approach to life and think the way that they do because i truly want to better understand so that I can grow as a person.

Physical violence or threats of physical violence are a whole other ball of wax. They demand immediate action from me. In these scenarios, I only hope the principles of the program point me and guide me on what I put into practice.

nez

If I look at the big picture, everything talked about in the rooms of AA is about alcoholism and recovery. Someone can be sharing about the San Francisco Giants baseball team, so how the hell is that about alcoholism and recovery? My reaction to their share will tell me volumes about my alcoholism and my recovery, if I pay attention. For me there are no outside issues. :~)

Derringer

We are warned in 'working with others' not to waste our precious time on those who don't want what we have.

So how much time do we spend letting a disrupter, cross talker, bigot, spoil our meetings ?

Do we really want to chance a newcomer seeing this as the norm in AA ?

The traditions and CSO have left avenues for each group to set their own boundaries.

We can all inventory the heck out of it, before, during and after the events, as we should.

As I said in my original post, can't kick him out of AA, can kick him out of your group.

He'll find his own level and it is not up to us to recover those who don't want it.

His trouble is of his own making