DayTrader

What's written in the AA program would suggest otherwise but that doesn't mean it's true. I personally didn't believe 99% of what was in that book. The only thing that's changed my mind over the years is a vast amount of evidence combined with a lot of practicing things I didn't necessarily want to practice just to see if my presumptions were correct. I could have typed many dozens of lines like the ones above that I just "knew" were wrong. Of course I didn't believe that all my troubles were of my own making. Of course I didn't believe if I'm troubled that the reason is me. And of course I didn't think spiritual growth would solve my troubles. I mean, it's so obvious isn't me or my spirituality..... the problem is definitely THEM and what they're doing!

Come to think of it, there's something in there about not being able to recognize the true from the false too - lol. Didn't believe that one applied to me either. Turns out that's been me a whole lot more than I ever would have believed. But....high levels of denial and delusion had been such frequently used tools in my life, it got to where I could BS myself and not even realize I was doing it. I'd totally believe all the little stories my false ego and false pride just made up. I'd been doing it so long, I would have (and DID) deny I was doing it even WHEN I WAS DOING IT.

I'm not suggesting what anyone is doing is wrong..... just sharing my experience. Now, I get to live in some pretty awesome emotional freedom and none of it came until I really started investing IF all my troubles maybe were and are of my own making and, if so, what to do about it. I sure didn't think the steps would work in ALL areas but that's obvious I thought that - I wasn't even trying to apply them in all areas. I only recommend it now because I haven't found a "problem" yet in 12+ years of recovery where applying the steps and/or the principles behind them to my issues hasn't completely resolved them.

Ken33xx

I don't think ever potential conflict needs needs to be run through the lens of AA.

When I was chairing, I used to bring two bags of sweets. There were a couple of fellows that would take handfuls each week. Finally, I told them there were other people in the room so stop hogging the candy. They gave the old “Who me?” look but cooled it.

If someone feels they need to talk to another member be it about sweets, t&A jokes or something else…go ahead.

I don’t think anyone will stop you.

But again, we’re talking about hanging out before/after meetings.

Speaking for myself if I don’t care for a few regulars I l don’t socialize with them or I go to a different meeting.

This doesn’t mean I can’t walk over and tell them why I won’t be returning.

What it It means is.... I don’t feel I need to.

Derringer

Its pretty simple really.

Tradition 2 ... One ultimate authority, a loving God etc.

So group conscience it.

Then based on that, tolerate it or if your group votes not to tolerate it, know that you have the backing of the central service office and tradition 4 on your side to get him to either pull his horns in or get asked to leave the group.

Based on what has been written here, he won't need to look too far for another group who will tolerate him.

Easy

Obladi

Well, I think that's wonderful for you and everyone else who has found that they made all of their own troubles, DayTrader. And I mean that most sincerely. Perhaps I will send you a PM to inquire more specifically how you see this could apply in some cases that come to mind for me. I honestly cannot get my head around it, and God's honest truth, it's not for lack of trying.

O

fini

yes, i have to speak up against hate. there is a “bigger”principle than the one about me being disturbed by ultimately something about me.
i have often thought it rather disturbing that some don’t get disturbed about some very disturbing stuff going on.
social justice warrior? i wish i had more guts so i could be a better one. speaking up is hard. doing the work to see my privilege is hard. but all that pales in comparison to being silenced and/or targeted while hated, disparaged, freely spat on literally and metaphorically and then being told to either leave if it makes you uncomfortable or that yeah there is something wrong with you if this disturbs you.

but i am discouraged by this conversation. which disturbs me. and that is on me.

Kaneda8888

Wow, this thread has really stimulated a lot of conversation

Firstly, I am very grateful for everyone's contributions. The advice given has been gold !

Secondly, I want to expand a little on my perspective. I guess when I enter the Rooms, rightly or wrongly, I immediately put on my AA hat irrespective of whether the formal meeting has commenced. And one of the aspects that has been pounded into my brain is the primary purpose of AA which we all know. So, when this chap starts on his prejudiced wise cracking and rants, it offends me (for reasons previously explained). Then he will cross talk during the shares and finally wanders off halfway through the meeting. These aspects also annoy me. I simply think it does not benefit anyone trying to get sober. Also, I prefer not to walk away as this is my home group and has been for more than 6 years. I gained my sobriety in this group.

However, this is where self reflection (or moral inventory) comes into play. Instead of initially pointing the finger at him, I have now pointed the finger at myself and asked why does this person's actions upset me ? I have elaborated a little before as to why.

Where I am landing is I have the right to feel this way. He has the right to express his perspectives and actions (except maybe the cross talking bit which hopefully we've all solved ).

The step beyond this is to separate subject and object. The subject is the man. The object is his behaviour. I may find his behaviour objectionable but that does not mean the man is objectionable. To express hatred and be dismissive reflects upon his suffering. So, how do you act towards a person who you believe is suffering ? My answer, in theory, is to show compassion and kindness. My home group meeting is coming up soon. I will now try and figure out how the theory becomes practice Some good suggestions have been given.

AAPJ

Kaneda8888,

Great summary follow up post. Leaving a 6 year tenure home group because of another member's behavior would be just sad. However, during your tenure there surely you have made some friends. Perhaps you can quietly ask them if this member's behavior disturbs them too? Unlike all of us on this forum we have never actually observed this person's behavior live but your fellow meeting members have.

What I am saying here is that at least in my AA experience problem members are usually a problem to a lot of folks and a team approach may be more effective in resolving the problem member's behavior.

Fusion

I've just read some of the responses to the OP and the OP's reply and I'm shocked. It's this type of turning a blind eye, that has women manipulated and abused, before and after AA meetings. I understand that the BB was written in the 1930s and that there's a Chapter to "the wives", presuming that only men become addicted.

But please, educate yourselves, we are in the 21st century now, and addiction affects women as well as men. And the women should find a safe harbour in AA. The women should not be alienated from recovery at, of prior to/in the build up to, an AA meeting:: by a sexist, making crude remarks. It beggars belief that a Group Conscience meeting isn't called. Women who are new, have probably walked out after hearing his remarks; such a shame.

DayTrader

It seems to me like the "Meditation for the Day" from today's 24Hour book is similar to what I've been trying to say, especially that last sentence:

Meditation For The Day

I will learn to overcome myself, because every blow to
selfishness is used to shape the real, eternal,
unperishable me. As I overcome myself, I gain that power
which God releases in my soul. And I too will be
victorious. It is not the difficulties of life that I
have to conquer, so much as my own selfishness.


Our 12th step suggest we, "....practice these principles in all our affairs." Quite the challenge, isn't it? It's so much easier to just try and go through life, do what I think is right and deal with the aftermath, if there is any, or if I recognize any. -and lots of times, our self-centerdness can be in charge to the point where we simply don't see any damage we're doing even though it's there. The bigger the challenge, the harder it is (for me anyway) to want to try and work the program on them. My natural tendency is to form an opinion, take some action, and if it doesn't work to my benefit.....I'd usually want to run away. On the flip side, if I'm willing to look at the principles of a spiritual life, consider things like that "spiritual axiom" I spoke about earlier, and apply those tools to each situation, almost always I discover (maybe some Power greater than me reveals it) a solution that wouldn't have occurred to me had I not taken the time to pause, set aside what it is I think I know or think I need to do and spend some time questioning myself, my motives and asking that super-cool God of MY understanding what she would like to see me do.

DayTrader

Shame on you??

interesting.......

Obladi

And S/He says, "You're right, O. This man's behavior brings to mind deep wounds, past and present, to you and others. Remember your power. Remember how much I love you. I love that guy too. If you choose to do so, speak to him from your heart. Help him to see you care for him even while his words cut to the bone. Whether you change his ways or not is immaterial. What matters is that you show your love for him while also honoring your love for yourself and others. I'll be right there with you - you'll know when the time is right to share your pain/ power with this man. But yes, O, of course I want you to have a voice. This is a proper use of will; use it judiciously."

Fusion

Nope. Not for a Newcomer woman who's just walked into a meeting.....and becomes immediately alienated by the behaviour under discussion. I refer you to Derringer's AA guidance posts. If some meetings don't follow such guidance: that's a shame. As August says, peace out.

Cosima11

Perhaps I don't have a place in this thread as I'm not an AA person but.. I think there's a difference between disliking someone because their personality or views or communication style clashes with your own (or reminds you of things you're trying to change in yourself) and looking the other way when abuses of power are taking place. And yes both racism and sexism are an abuse of power, even when only expressed verbally.

In fact it's that foundation belief, that there are power hierarchies in the heavens which condone and necessitate the power hierarchies here on earth.. which has kept me out of AA from the start. Instructing people to pray on it because "only God can do something about it" is a fascinating concept but ultimately a cop out, imo

DayTrader

If one hasn't tried something or experienced it, it would certainly appear to be a fantasy. In my early AA days, most everything about the AA program: trust in a God of my understanding, practicing of faith, or tolerance, or love....and so on.... all looked like noble things but to me but definitely not something that would actually work in real life.

There are still a couple that I've been wrestling with over the past decade or so..... haven't found my truth in them yet but that's part of the deal isn't it? Question, seek Truth, test results, process and move on. Rather than going about problem solving as I've always done......or even as I think I should now..... take those beliefs into prayer and see if I get any sort of response. And if I do, I get to choose whether I'll do my thing or the thing that was suggested (which usually is quite opposed to what I was thinking about doing). My experience has taught me that those thoughts that come to me during meditation, when followed, tend to have pretty darn good results. So in my experience, that way-cool god of my understanding..... She does a lot better with my problems/issues/difficulties than I've done.

August252015

Kaneda - so glad you returned to hear all of this And I think you are brilliant with the conclusions and next steps -they sound very considered and measured as well as emotionally responsible to yourself and others.

My comments are not intended to criticize friends like O or Tatsy. I keep trying, as DT does from how I take the posts, to separate AA from the outside "rules" of society - just like everyone I wish and strive to have balance, better treatment of all, be a voice for womens' addictions...but for purposes of this discussion and how I choose to put a foundation under my worldview, I do subscribe to the principals of AA, as I believe they help me to be a peace-seeking person IRL.

No one deserves bad treatment, period, and that does apply to within the rooms - and on the premises of a meeting too! How those behaving outside the lines is something AA has set up to address as best as one organization, and one focused on a sole purpose of carrying the message to the alcoholic who still suffers, can possibly do.

In closing ( ) - just like I don't literally apply the words like "wench" from Shakespearean works to modern day, I couch the BB as a work in its time, with the knowledge it had, and then take the concepts and basic premises - such as alcohol kills people like us and here's how these folks found a way to stop - as the crux of the matter.

Appreciate the discussion as like any in the rooms (using that to apply here!), if I can find even one morsel to ponder, it's a worthwhile endeavor. Certainly have a handful of morsels here!

Cosima11

My perception isn’t a fantasy, it’s evidenced right here in this very thread by your ceaseless attempts to deflect responsibility off of an openly racist and misogynistic person.

Kaneda, my version of “boundaries” in this scenario would be to say you have just as much of a right to be there and speak your mind as he does.. You don’t have to sink to his level and be verbally abusive back to him but I see nothing wrong with politely stating you value all members input and won’t tolerate his making anyone in the group feel less than. If that makes him uncomfortable, he’s free to leave of course..

DayTrader

Of course it's not a fantasy. It's your experience One's experience is precisely that - their experience. If someone hasn't experienced something, it's by default not true.....for them. If I haven't experienced being a woman, I can have an opinion about it but no real experience with it - by definition. If I haven't experienced being black, or Asian, or rich, or poor, or really tall, or really short, or quite emotional, or rather reserved, or constantly angry or very mousey and quiet ......etc... I'm entitled to any opinion about those things that I choose. I can think they look like BS, a cop-out, a choice, delusional, fantasy, the best thing ever or the worst thing ever etc.

One of the principles in the 12 steps is that the spiritual life is not a theory it has to be lived. In other words, thoughts are well and good, so are opinions and beliefs... but what seems to carry more weight is what is one's actual experience with something. I try to stick with what I've experienced and discuss whether that experience is extensive or limited. I've had a lot of experience in seeking a God of my understanding. I've had a tooooon of experience not-seeking any God of anyone's understanding too. What I do... what I've experienced, it can look to someone else any way they choose. I know truth only to the extent that I've experienced it.... same for other people's opinion of me or what they think about what I believe. We all operate under the truth we have experienced.

Fusion

OMG DayTrader, you've just sold out the experiences of a lot of potential AA members in that post. Thankfully, there's an official AA Group Conscience meeting procedure, if someone decides to invoke it........the OP seems to have been dissuaded by you and others.

Ken33xx

Not sure how easy it would be to monitor speech before and after meetings. However, holding a group conscience would at least bring the concerns of members to light.

I have heard about two members that banned from attending certain meetings because of 13th stepping.

Derringer

If the founders just navel gazed and ultimately did nothing about all the troubles that befell early AA, the traditions that emerged about 15 years after the big book, would never have come to pass.

I'd say that is evidence enough that, like them, we have to take action when necessary to curb the power grabbers, the anonymity breakers etc and in this case, the bullies.