GettingStronger2

I do not know. I am an alcoholic and not an addict so I cannot say from my experience. Since this is an AA support board, the question was framed in terms of alcohol addiction.

ronf

Pray like you could never do it alone-work like it's entirely up to you

BackToSquareOne

That was a good answer Ronf, it covers all the bases. I would never have thought of looking at it that way.

Kjell

Great thread!

There was a time when I had a choice.

...but that time was long ago and who knows when that changed b/c we are so good at lying and deceiving ourselves. If I think I make the choice, then I'm going to think I made the choice, even if I really didn't

Bottom line is towards the end, I didn't have a choice and darn near died b/c of it.

This doesn't mean I don't take responsability for myself or my actions. Quite the opposite and I think people get confused about this.

We can be powerless over alcohol and take responsability for ourselves. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Kjell~

Pete55

Alcoholism is "Primary" according to medical people. Means it does not come from another ailment. It stands alone and from it come other hassles if not arrested. The use of the word "arrested" is because no known cure has been found yet.

The "choice" factor is about how we think after we put the drink down.
It's like, "Ok, now what"?

The way I understand it from Dr Silkworth where he says;
This in my opinion is not Big Book Thumping, it's simply a recipie, it works so why try change it?

BB 1st Edition
psychic change as I understand it, is the way I think, now. Not before.
Then he say's the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.

So we have "change" the way we think,
then he simplifies it with, follow a few simple rules

So what is the change and what is the rule that we are required to change?

Before I answer this, I think a person in the medical profession that deals with mind things, views his or her subject differently. It's a study and they make a science of it. So in their study of their patient, they'd be writing notes, and in Dr Silkworth's case he would have had a lot of notes on alcholics by the time the AA solution was formed of one alkie talking to another. So he is actually "seeing" the thought process as a medical person.
And he has by then almost conceded defeat himself, that he to admited that no human power can sovle this mystery of why the alcholic goes back out and drinks, only to come back and detox.

Ok, now back to "Change", "Rules" and "Choice".

If I chose to drink, I choose to drink, because my mind said, "shall I today or not"? Then my mind would say, "Yes, it's Friday and the beginning of the weekend, everybody I know, drinks, or are at the bar somewhere"

If I choose to not drink, my mind would say, "Well, it IS Monday, I need to get to work, so I won't drink, but will have a couple after work". I made a choice.

The rules change, when we don't think about "Am I going to drink because it's Friday?"...that thought process is no longer applicable, we don't have to ask ourselves that question any more, it's "removed" by changing the way I think.

So it is actually Friday here now as I type. I am 3 years + sober and been in the city, done stuff, had to walk and walked past a few bars etc.
Not once did it cross my mind, "shall I go in or not"?...that just does not occurr anymore, it is not in my thought process. AND!, I walked right past a bar where I used to start my Friday drinks. I did see 2 men outside smoking ( cannot smoke cigs in bars anymore) and they had the look that I don't want, miserable, drunk and droopy. Somehow our eyes met and ya know, it sort of amuses me that we just sort of "knew" one another....Total strangers, yet, of all the thousands of people in the city on Friday arvo, these 2 drunks, we nodded. I just ket right on walking cos I had errands to do.
That's what I think it means, "the choice has been removed"...it does not get processed in my thinking from the time I wake up to the time I go down.

BUT!
The "dis-ease" is very very sneaky, it can sneak up on me, for example...,
I am at a family gathering, family I have not seen for years and they offer me a shot of whiskey.
It seems so natural for me to take that shot, even my mind in that split millisecond will try to strum up excuses excuses and more excuses to take that shot.
Classic excuse, "no one will know". In a split second my mind has said that.
Thanks to the AA book, I have implemented a "rule", and that rule is a word, "Re-coil".
I need effort to do this and that is when I focus my attention to my HP as I understand Him right there and then and no one ahs to know, I then surrender, recoil, and have the energy/power from HP to say, "no thanks, not today"... That's it, that's all I have to do.

Boleo

Logic and reason told me I had a choice, yet I can not remember ever "choosing" to relapse. Logic and reason still tells me I have a choice, yet I can not remember even once "choosing" to stay sober.

Today I realize my sobriety is a byproduct of my staying spiritually fit. When I am spiritually fit; logic, reason, decision and choice are all outside issues.

sugErspun

I was willing to let go of some long held beliefs and conceptions.
I never took the first drink when I was drunk.
Alcohol seemingly had power over me that I was unable to control.

Choice? I think the way I define choice has probably changed quite a bit. I don't know the last time I had to think or say "I am not going to drink today" - hasn't even come to mind.

Mark was right - I gave up my choice at the third step because I was beat with no way out. Hopeless didn't mean I needed time to gather a stronger resolve - it meant I was absolutely hopeless of "not drinking", and that any effort on my part to stop was going to end up the same way - with me drunk.

Kieth said - it's an experience more than anything else, and I agree with that 100%. Without having experienced total hopelessness, lack of choice - I would not be able to relate to people who speak of these things. I know EXACTLY what they are talking about, no matter which words they "choose" to describe it.

Supercrew

But is it my choice not to drink today? is it you choice? Curious as to your thoughts.

I think this is why so many people consider "alcoholism", as "cunning baffling and powerful". When you realize that we think on 2 different levels, conscious and subconscious, it is quite easy to see why especially in the height of our addiction we feel that even though we make a conscious choice not to drink, our subconscious voice wins the battle and we pick up the bottle or relapse.

First when we decide we have a problem with alcohol or state that we are an alcoholic we give our subconscious brain even more ammo and strengthen the thought that we can not function without alcohol. What do alcoholics do? They drink and they need to drink to cope and to survive. Most of us have already learned and inbedded in our subconscious the need for alcohol to reduce stress, to have fun, to socialize, to celecbrate to mourn etc. Tack on the fact that we are admitting that we are an alcoholic who needs alcohol and you can see why the subconscious mind will continue to tell you to drink.

Now we have the conscious mind saying I don't want to die, I don't want to embarrass myself or my family, I don't want to get a DUI, I don't want a hangover, I don't want to drink etc. This is where the problem occurs because our brain is incongruent and not balanced in it's thinking. The conscious mind is saying one thing and the unconscious mind another. So when there is a choice to be made we have a real battle within ourselves, and occassionally the subconscious mind wins the battle, which completely baffles us because we consciously did not want to drink.

The key to win the battle is to get the unconscious mind reprogrammed to believe it doesn't want and need alcohol. Then the mind is balanced and the obsessive thinking over drinking disappears. So yes you do have a choice in the matter, and if your subconscious and conscious mind are balanced it is easy and sustainable. If your subconscious mind still believes you have to rely on alcohol all bets are off, and you are back to "cunning, baffling and powerful".

keithj

So, I'm with you so far. 'Unconscious mind reprogrammed' sounds a lot like psychic change sufficient to overcome alcoholism.

Through my own experience, long before I was exposed to AA, I learned that I could not do that reprogramming on my own. I learned that medication, doctors, counselors, outpatient treatment, inpatient rehab, and having support groups all resulted in that mental obsession winning out eventually. It resulted in me getting drunk.

No matter how much I tried, how much I wanted, how much I attempted to be a good boy, I still ended up drunk.

It makes perfect sense that somehow, that mental obsession (or subconscious mind) needs to get fixed. My experience is that I couldn't fix it, and the doctors couldn't fix it, and the counselors couldn't fix it, and understanding it didn't fix it.

So when AA comes along, and shares their experience that they couldn't fix their problem either. They didn't have the power to do so. But, they can show me how to get the needed power. It worked for them, and it can work for me. I was willing to give that a shot.

I tried to fix this in every secular way I could think up. I failed again and again. That's the experience of AA, and that's my experience.

How does one, in your language, reprogram the subconscious? AA has an app for that. The 12 Step forum is for sharing our experience with that app.

Music

God's greatest gift to me is the "desire" to not drink. Do I have a choice? Certainly!! If I take that "first" drink my choice is gone as it was right from the first time I drank. As an example, if I ask God to remove my tendency toward getting angry, does He remove anger? No! He gives me opportunities to control my anger. I'll always have the choice to get angry or not. Same with drinking. God gives me tools with which to stay sober. It's my choice whether to use them or not. If I drink again, it won't be because God made me drink, it'll be because I chose to not use the tools I have been given to stay sober. The opportunity to drink is available to me every day but I choose to not drink by going to meetings, talking to my sponsor, hanging in with sober people, staying out of bars, praying and putting the steps to work in my life. People who say they don't have a choice are setting themselves up to blame God or someone else for their drinking. I have to take responsibility for my sobriety.

Supercrew

Well, I started doing CBT, (Cognitive Behavorial Therapy), a method that I had learned close to 20 years prior to keep me from drinking for the short term. Once the positive aspects of sobriety kicked in and I received positive feedback from people close to me and this forum it made the subconscious thing real. Then I added positive things to my life and things that could replace what alcohol did for me, like a daily routine of working out etc. Then I attacked it on the diet and supplement front so I am very healthy now. Then I did alot of relaxation and self-hypnosis/meditation. This might have been where I made a major impact on the sub-conscious.

I am currently studying some other methods to reach the subconscious and maybe eventually help other people. I am glad that AA helped "reprogram your subconscious", I agree it does that for alot of people. I would like to see more people realize what is really occurring when they have their spiritual awakening. Basically the subconscious got the message.

Supercrew

The 12 Step forum is for sharing our experience with that app.

I was just answering the question about "choice". It didn't ask about a 12 step choice.

keithj

So, basically, you have no experience with the 12 Steps, but you would like to define what my experience really is for me?

Supercrew

I believe in self-empowerment, not only for alcoholism and addiction, but for success in life in general. I have been familiar with the 12 step method for over 10 years, and I realized I had a mental response similar to what a spiritual awakening was described to be by changing my subconscious mind. So I figured it would be helpful to describe what was really happening when we lose the obsession to drink. Kind of like watching a magic trick and explaining that there was nothing magic about it. Although you are a strong proponent for the 12 step method and it worked for you, you surely can't argue that knowledge is power, and the more power you have in your toolbox the stronger you will be as a person.

GettingStronger2

I am somewhat speechless. You do realize this is a 12 step SUPPORT board? I have an explanation, of sorts, as to how the mental obsession was lifted in me, and it is not what you describe.

And i can argue that knowledge is not power. I knew a lot before i quit drinking, and it was never enough.

DayTrader

That's not been my experience nor that of most of the ppl I know in AA.

Knowledge is great and all but it, as it relates to drinking, it's only sufficient for the non-alcoholic or the person who's NOT lost the power of choice. If knowledge of myself was sufficient to bring about change, I can't imagine I'd work the AA program at all. Then again, this IS the "12 Step Support" portion of this website........

Supercrew

First of all the initial question was about having a choice and why some of continued to subconsciously chose to drink even when we consciously did not want to. I am not critcizing the 12 step method, I am just explaining how I got the same result and what is really happening in our mind when the obsession to drink is lifted.

Supercrew

So knowledge is good, unless you are an alcoholic working the 12 step program? Believe it or not even if you know why it works it won't change the fact that it worked. The 12 step method is also a great tool to deal with other recovery issues like support and cleaning up aspect of your life that were damaged due to drinking. It obviously works for Many people but learning that when you lose the obsession you are just changing your subconscious thinking won't be detrimental to your recovery.

Pete55

SC, with all due respect, the 12 Step forum is where the real work is done after taking the first 11 Steps, which is prepration for Step 12.

Supercrew

Sorry, I didn't realize this forum was only for people who practice the 12 step method. I was just commenting on why sometimes it feels as if we have no choice. I thought this forum was a place where we could discuss and exchange ideas regarding recovery and the 12 step method. I'm not really sure why I'm catching flack for explaining why I think it works.