Mark75

Hi supercrew!

We all have common ground and I have seen in your posts that you are willing to find it, and I like that quality in a person.

I ride my bike at lunch, I am lucky that way, it is a beautiful day in these parts...

... anyway I thought about knowledge and power, the things you mentioned in your post. Knowledge is power if you are willing to use it.... something that didn't work for me, at least not in time to prevent others to step in and "guide" me towards recovery... LOL...

Power is power is power?? IDK, really... the light bulb doesn't care where the electricity comes from... it will glow whether it's hydroelectric, solar, atomic...

Does our sobriety? I think it might, it does for me.

DayTrader

12 Step Recovery.......and AA specifically........are based in spiritual growth, connecting with a God of your own understanding and tapping into the power from that "God" to do for you what you can't do for yourself. The program is specifically aimed at people who don't have the ability to bring about their own complete psychic change on their own.

Initially, we think our problem is alcohol......or rooted in the consumption of alcohol. Many of us tried to stop drinking yet found we couldn't. So.....long story short......we found our way to the 12 Steps. Once we did manage to scrape together some dry time, we found that our lives didn't necessarily get any better. The BB calls it "irritable, restless and discontent," but these also work: depressed, anxious, angry, resentful, confused, worried, full of self pity, self hatred, overly in love with one's self, over-inflated egos and so on. It's on these things that the steps and the program of AA have their real teeth - and what the program was really designed to work on. While "not drinking" is a part of the program, it's not the root problem the program of AA goes after. The basis for the "AA approach" is that, for many of the members, they simply CAN'T bring about these changes within themselves - and not for lack of trying....they simply don't have the ability (aka the power) to do it.

From your posts, this is not where you're coming from. You've expressed how you changed your subconscious and the drink problem was gone. I can only assume, but it also sounds as if once your drinking stopped so did the problems. For me, stopping drinking alleviated some of the problems but it did absolutely NOTHING to all the big issues that led to the drinking in the first place. To tell ya the truth, I felt more messed up when I was dry than when I was getting loaded. Again, in AA...by working the program....alcoholics like me have found a method (the steps) to get closer to a God of our understanding and it's from that God that we receive the missing power.

I hope you see that there's a difference. You just fixed yourself.......we couldn't. You had a choice.....I didn't. You had the ability to carry it out......I didn't.

By comparison: I don't have a gambling problem. It just doesn't do anything for me. For me to not walk into a casino and blow all my money just takes a decision on my part..........to not do it......and from there I can "just not gamble" anytime I want. I can control my mind, in that area. I can control my actions, in that area. I have a choice and I have the necessary power........and I have a track record to evidence it. People in Gamblers Anonymous though.......it's different story for them. They can make the decision to gamble over and over and over but guess what? Before long they're right back at it. They don't have the same power in that area that I do. For me to go to G.A. meetings and tell the folks they simply have to change their thinking and adjust their actions would carry no weight with them. Remember......they don't have the same power and I don't have their problem. I'm not a real gambling addict.....I'm not a chronic gambler.

Folks with drinking problems are like my gambling example above. Some have the ability to stop and, luckily for them, when they stop so do most of their problems. For others though (chronic alkies like me), they can't really stop........and even when they do get some time down, life gets worse - not better. For the chronic alcoholic, their alcoholism effects them whether they're drinking or not.

If you feel like you're catching flack.......it's not flack so much as disagreement with your practices - because you're methodology doesn't work for us, hasn't worked for us, and is not within the chronic alcoholic's ability to put into action.

Music

First off, I think you use general terms like "we" and "our" way too freely. If you want to talk about yourself that's fine, but I'd caution you about wrapping us all up into a nice package and applying what you think to the rest of us. I agree knowledge is power however when I drank, I spent more time trying to figure out why things were so screwed up when I was using all the knowledge I was capable of mustering up to run my life and the lives of people around me. As the Big Book states, knowledge of ones self is not enough to gain sobriety. It might be in your case because you have CBT going for you but those of us who aren't so furtunate can only talk about AA and how we sobered up in AA. I'm as intelligent as the next person and my will power, as with most drunks, is not lacking in the least. I went to work many days feeling like death warmed over when people I worked with called in sick with the sniffles. I don't know how long you've been sover, nor how you sobered up, whether you used CBT, AA, or a combination of both. I'm glad you're sober but sobriety is not just not drinking. It's not a case of becoming aware of my subconscience. It's a matter of realizing what life and responsibility are and just how I fit into the overall scheme of things; then learning how to be happy with what I find out. Of course you're welcome here and I encourage you to say anything you like, but talk about the "first person singular".

In the above quote, you mention getting the "same result". Does that mean that you've worked the 12 steps and CBT both and got the same result from both methods?

Supercrew

I will talk in the first person singular. I had the same alcoholic problems as you and Keith, I was the alcoholic described in the BB. I could not stop myself and I tried unsuccessfully for at least 10 years to quit drinking. I think "terminal uniqueness" works both ways. I am just telling you what I found when I realized that there was an incongruence in my mind. When the subconscious truly believes one thing, (I am an alcoholic and I need to drink to function), and the conscious is saying I want to quit drinking. AA and the 12 steps obviously is able to change the subconscious mind of some individuals so they lose their obsession and deeply held beliefs regarding alcohol. When my subconscious mind finally got the message I felt like a new awakened person.

I understand that most people don't want to wait for 10 years and do trial and error and fail like I did to come up with a solution on their own. If you believe your HP changed your subconscious for you and that works, great! It was important for me to know why and how it worked so not only could I use it again if necessary, I could use that power in other aspects of my life to become a more successful human being.

Being spiritual, religious or atheist are also very deeply seated beliefs we hold in our subconscious, and it is not an easy task to make someone change their views, so if you were an atheist, non-believer, non-spiritual person before you started recovery you have your HP and AA to thank for your new views.

Again I am not arguing that the 12 step method does not work, in fact for people who have other problems outside of just drinking can benefit greatly from following the steps and doing daily inventories and not holding resentments and such. It leads to a happier and healthier life for most.

I will now exit your forum, sorry for the interuption.

Music

Thanks for that clarification. I understand what you're gettting at. That's what makes AA such an interesting institution. So many people with as many experiences. Please don't think you need to leave the forum. You shared your ES&H just as I do and many others as well. We learn from each other....right??

Pete55

yeah SC, what I quoted does not mean literaly leave, it means for us who practice the 12 Steps, in my case I have learnt from the BB of AA from a 20 year + sober member with experience of taking the steps, which means this member has had trials, errors, and victories on the day, shows the way from the BB, and part of their own story FROM the actual experience of taking the steps. How that person felt in THEIR own words on thier own respective journey.
That's what I was saying, that I am not in control here, I dopn't know why I'm here, but I find the path here from others is the same path I taking be it online or out there, and that is now to try to carry the message of hope and recovery from alcoholism, just as the 12th Step implies,
"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics,...."

as the result of these steps
Means exactly that, the result, we kicked goals, not just read about the goals others kicked.
Then
we tried to carry this message to alcoholics


we try, as the authors are telling us something in past tense, they did something, they tried.
I like what they did, so I will try it to, but before I can try, I need to get those results from practicing the preceding steps.
It's a recipe fro recovery.

Boleo

I agree 100%. No matter how much "I" tried, I ended up drunk. Not drinking never helped in the long run either. The longer I abstained, the sicker I got.

The instant "I" stopped trying to achieve sobriety - sobriety found me.

First time I heard it called an "App". I used to call it an algorithm, but people thought I was talking about a vice-president... LOL!