Mark75

As usual here in the 12 step Section... Good Stuff... I thought a lot about Jim's response and got some clarity from BasIam's.

In some ways the newcomer must adjust his attitude if he is to find recovery... That adjustment is more about the newcomer than those of us who have already found recovery in AA... What service do we do for the newcomer if we allow him to think he can change the program to suit whatever needs he thinks he has... I am not suggesting that BasIam is advocating that, not at all... But the newcomer is the one who must change, sometimes he must change everything, including any attitudes that may include a sense that someone owes them something. Humility.... I can't speak for Jim, but that is what I got from his message.... humility.

We are responsible to have the hand of AA out and available... the hand of AA, not the hand of a multipurpose, program suits all, anything goes fellowship of addicts, alcoholics, gamblers, overeaters and sex addicts.... But that hand should be welcoming and fully outstretched and willing... but it should be strong and true to it's purpose.

Thanx

Mark

Ago

AA is for alcoholics

They can be cross addicted cross dressing self centered junkie gay Wiccan pagans with a speech impediment and a bad attitude and body odor

but they gotta be alcoholics

it's pretty simple

andyaddict

WoW! Nice thread, interesting topic, lot’s of input.

As for me... first and foremost I share my experience, strength and hope. However I will not "edit" my experience to fit any other member's or group's intolerance or exclusive interpretation of the Twelve Traditions.

Furthermore, I believe that making AA an extension of the group's collective fears and intolerance is just plain wrong. AA ought never be organized, at no time do any of us govern, and the only requirement for membership is a quality that no other member or group can judge. Sometimes the best message that can be carried is that of which we do not approve - teaching acceptance, patience, and tolerance to the rest of the group.

Could we then foresee that troublesome people were to become our principal teachers of patience and tolerance? Could any then imagine a society which would include every conceivable kind of character, and cut across every barrier of race, creed, politics, and language with ease?

Why did A.A. finally drop all its membership regulations? Why did we leave it to each newcomer to decide himself whether he was an alcoholic and whether he should join us?

"Please confine your discussion to your problems and solutions with alcohol..." That card came from the WSO in New York, did it not? They must be the authority in this matter… or are they?

You might think A.A.'s headquarters in New York would be an exception. Surely, the people there would have to have some authority. But long ago, trustees and staff members alike found they could do no more than make suggestions, and very mild ones at that. They even had to coin a couple of sentences which still go into half the letters they write: "Of course, you are at perfect liberty to handle this matter any way you please. But the majority experience in A.A. does seem to suggest . . . " Now, that attitude is far removed from central government, isn't it? We recognize that alcoholics can't be dictated to--individually or collectively.

As for the confound in that statement: alcohol is not, nor was it ever a "problem" with me - merely a symptom of my problem.

Bottles were only a symbol. Our liquor was but a symptom. We HAD TO get down to causes and conditions. After all, our problems were of our own making.

Besides, who feels they have the authority to “dictate” my thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors in a meeting – from the position of “my servant?”

Why did we dare to say, contrary to the experience of society and government everywhere, that we would neither punish nor deprive any A.A. of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything?

You've noticed my name... andyaddict... would any of you let me join your group even though I am afflicted with another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism?

Hmmm, what would the Master do?

a

Music

One or both of our co-founders had pill problems as well as alcohol, so why AA, and not AA/NA? Probably because their drug of choice was alcohol! AA is tolerant with dualy addicted people and always has been. However, AA is for people who's drug of choice is alcohol, and who've become alcoholic, not for people who's drug of choice is cocaine or prescription drugs. If you're dualy addicted, and drugs is part of your sharing, that's great. However, if you come to a meeting I'm attending and start talking about popping this and that, shooting up or snorting and I don't hear alcohol in your story, I'll call for a group conscience vote to "open" the meeting or call the meeting something other than an AA meeting. My son is dualy addicted. He has attended AA and NA but respects AA's singleness of purpose enough to identify himself as an alcoholic/drug addict but confines his comments to the use of alcohol when he attends AA.

Believe me Zak, AA has lightened up a lot since I started attending meetings. AA is a very forgiving and flexible program, as well as being loving and tolerant in it's code, but AA should not change it's singleness of purpose i.e., to forcus on the alcoholic, just to appease people like you who seem to think you're special or unique because you happen to have popped a few pills. If your drug of choice is other than alcohol, I'd suggest you find other meetings to go to. AA meetings don't exist to accomodate your special needs or your convenience. If you choose to attend AA meetings, please do so but have the decency and respect to abide by AA traditions and the ground rules set up by the group conscience, otherwise start your own group, run it the way you like and let me know how that works for you.

tomvlll

I don't know what ' the Master ' would say but AA traditions and subsequent literature are crystal clear.

If you are an alky you are weclome in AA. Period. Nothing else is relevant.

If taking drugs was part of your alcoholism, ( ie people who did coke to drink more) then chances are that is going to come up in AA meetings.

But people should respect the AA traditions.

jimhere

anyaddict said:
"You've noticed my name... andyaddict... would any of you let me join your group even though I am afflicted with another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism?"

Do you have alcoholism? If so, you would be welcome in our group. As Andrew said, we don't care what other afflictions and disorders you suffer from. However, our meeting is closed, and if you are not alcoholic, you can't be a member. For the benefit of the misguided newcomer, which you apparently are not, we crafted an opening statement for our meeting.

"This is The Bridge To Faith Group. This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. If you are alcoholic, you are welcome. If your problem is other than alcoholism, you cannot attend this meeting."

We've had a few get up and walk out in a huff. But we had one ask "What do I do?" My counselor told me to come to AA." In cases like that, we qualify people, ask them if they have a history of alcoholism. If they do not, they can't stay for the meeting, but we'll ask them if they want a meeting. If they yes, a few of us will take them to coffee and we'll have a meeting. We basically 12th Step them. I ask if they know about NA or CA, We keep schedules for those fellowships on hand, and we'll even offer to take them to a meeting of NA or CA. If they don't want any of that, we give them a schedule for NA or CA and point them towards the nearest open AA meeting.

"Does this mean a non-heavy drinker, heavy drug abuser can't be a member? Absolutely not! Again read the pamphlet."

Am I reading this correctly? The non-heavy drinker, heavy drug user doesn't qualify for AA membership any more than the junkie or crack addict.

"The way I see it AA is there to help people who are powerless over an addiction that makes their lives unmanageable. Thats the way it is around here anyway"

That's the problem. It's the way you see it, and unfortunately, the way a lot of other mis-informed people see it. Just so I won't be accused of exclusively interpreting the Tradition, let's take a look at the long form of Tradition Five. "Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity HAVING BUT ONE PRIMARY PURPOSE, that of carrying its message TO THE ALCOHOLIC WHO STILL SUFFERS." No interpretation there, it says what it says.

"Why did we leave it to each newcomer to decide himself whether he was an alcoholic and whether he should join us?"

Good question. I think it is answered somewhere in the literature. While I think Bill Wilson was a genius in the way he formulated our Traditions and Concepts, I believe that in some ways he was too eager to please and too eager to avoid what are to many of us, a controversial subject that is often uncomfortable to address as well. That is my thoughts, probably neither here nor there. But how is someone supposed to decide for themselves if they are alcoholic or not if they don't have the proper information to make the decision with? Especially with the "drug is a drug is a drug" mantra that is so popular these days, which, incidentally comes to us from NA and is perpetuated by CDP's.

Here is what we are encountering. The counselors where I work tell addicts to go to AA meetings and introduce themselves as alcoholic. They are telling them to lie, and in so doing hurt the addict and hurt AA. How do they hurt the addict? Well they are telling to base their recovery on a lie. No wonder many don't stay clean. The 12 Steps will work for any problem, provided they have a foundation of truth. The fellowships necessarily will not work for any problem And how does this hurt AA? It erodes our primary purpose.

So we help them decide (if they are not sure) by qualifying them using the directions found in Chapter 7. That requires that we ourselves be properly armed with the facts about ourselves as alcoholics. We have to be able to describe alcoholism and our experience in a way that we can help people identify. If they can't identify, they don't belong. That simple. In that case we send them to where they might be able to get the help they need.

meditation

Every time we have these sorts of discussions I notice that something is going on underneath. There seems to be fear. Fear of AA changing or fear that AA won't help the suffering alcoholic? Fear that needs won't be met? We go round and round with this same discussion and our views are never changed by input from others. But I do see fear and fear translates to righteous anger. So what is the fear?

jimhere

Yes, there is fear underneath this.

I think you nailed what the fears are. Those same fears have came up on inventories I've written about this topic.

Are those your fears too?

andyaddict

I concur; people should respect AA's Traditions.

AA, as such, ought never be organized, our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern, and the ONLY requirement for membership ought be a desire to stop drinking. These Traditions are clear; however the interpretation of some others can be somewhat murky.

You see, trying to pick apart other traditions to circumvent the aforementioned, in my opinion, is not respecting the traditions. A true spiritual interpretation would have all Twelve Traditions working in harmony with one another, never in conflict.

If our Twelve Traditions like our Twelve Steps are comprised of spiritual principles, and true spiritual principles are never in conflict, how could any of our steps and traditions conflict with one another?

The answer is simple, we let our defects of character guide our interpretation rather than the spirit of a loving God. Or, perhaps, we get our information from misinformed people, the blind leading the blind so to speak, letting one strong willed member do all of the group’s thinking. Fear and intolerance can easily become our code rather than love and tolerance.

As for the ever recurring "Singleness of Purpose/Primary Purpose" argument, again, the answer is clear if you look to the first couple words of Tradition Five - Each "group" … whereas this tradition speaks to the group not the member. An AA "group" ought never have another purpose for its existence other than to carry the message of AA - i.e. the group should not be gathering signatures against the proposed new Walmart down the street.

Bill Wilson often said when speaking on the traditions that they were never introduced to give any individual, group, or service body any authority - but to remove the threat of such an intoxicating quality... to take power "away" never to give power or authority to.

In essence this collective concept compliments our Third Step, which is to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a loving God. How can we take an honest Third Step and then turn around and tell others how to run "their" lives? Again, we should be finding ways to put the steps with the traditions.

Then the program explains how fear, intolerance, self-righteousness, and pride are not only undesirable qualities for the alcoholic, but dangerous. What solutions are pointed toward in our literature? What would the Master do? Could any of you see a loving God cutting someone off in a meeting – telling them they are not sharing well enough for Him?

Take this exercise, go back and look through the posts on this topic and see which ones are comprised of love and tolerance of others and which ones seem to be driven by fear and intolerance. Practice separating the spiritual from the political and all will be well.

a

joedris

For BasIam, I agree with everything you say here with one exception. You state "If you don't believe you are an alcoholic, you can't be a member of AA." The third Tradition reads "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking." A lot of new people come through the doors to determine whether or not they are alcoholics, and may not identify themselves as such until that decision is made. But they have a desire to stop drinking, and that, in my view (and the 3rd tradition) makes them part of the fellowship.

andyaddict

Who gets to decide another’s disease, degree of illness, desire, or willingness? I’ve heard it said “playing judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother.” I don’t want that honor, I can tell you that.

This is where a few of us went when faced with this dilemma. First we had a problem with people being meeting "screeners" or "bouncers." To some this philosophy cut against the principles of equal membership, humility, and trust in a loving God. It just didn’t feel right. To others it seemed like a policy rooted in fear – fear of what?!? This group or worse yet AA as a whole would disintegrate because a non-alcoholic sat in a meeting? “We cannot make policy based on fear” they murmured.

I think you mentioned you may be employed in the field of treatment or therapy. Then you are probably aware of the confounds of self-report, are you not?

A member of ours spoke up in regards to self-report. When screening them, are we not, in essence, placing an almost unrealistic burden upon certain people to immediately get to levels of honesty about themselves never before ventured?

Isn't an inherent trait of untreated alcoholism dishonesty and self-deception? Wouldn't it be bold and arrogant of us to "expect" them to work through that immediately especially when put on the spot? In fact, “Who the he11 are we to put ANYONE on the spot anyway - who died and made us God?”

Again, when those thoughts were communicated not another word was said. We no longer felt a need to screen meeting participants nor expect them to conform to the verbiage commonly used (introducing themselves as alcoholic) for we found it more therapeutic to place our trust in a loving God to do the screening for us.

a

McGowdog

Jim stated the whole thing so clearly that I thought the thread would end there! I would like to "thank" Jim for what he said because there's nothing I can add to it, so I'll summarize;

The 12 Step Programs will work for anybody, so long that it's based in truth. It's easy to sell a lie to the world because the world lives on an energy level of about 190. To transcend a lie, you must be in truth. Truth starts at an energy level of about 200. The emotional states of drugs and alcohol take us to as high as above 500 (mellow) and perhaps on into 600(bliss). But we are addicted to that state of consciousness, not the drug or the alcohol. When you remove the clouds, you do not bring forth the Sun. The Sun is already there, but the clouds in us is what's blocking the experience. The problem with the drugs and the alcohol is that they are in and of themselves a lie.

The 12 Step approach is based in Truth... aka... Identification, so the addict who goes to A.A. gets worse, not better, and those in A.A. suffer too.

Well addicts don't like N.A. meetings so they go to A.A. They sense the power in A.A. because it is there. It really is there. But they can't have it. They must go to N.A. and make it for them what A.A. is for the alcoholic. Maybe they ought to use the A.A. book and replace their words as appropiate, and maybe even have a recovered alcoholic from A.A. take them through a set of steps. They do that and they'll be ahead of most in A.A. now.

navysteve

As a person who qualifies for many 12 step fellowships I find all I need in AA. I do not need to talk about my excessive drug use ( our stories disclose in a general way....). I do not see why this is such an issue and why some try to tie this to intolerance???? That is just ignorance. I don't go to church to talk about taxes, even though there may be an accountant or two in there!

Early on I used to announce myself as an alcoholic and an addict. That was not intended to be different. I wasn't trying to be special ( consciously not trying anyway). Most folks never had a problem with it, and I do not cringe or roll my eyes when folks do that in meetings today. For me though, I found out that I was indeed separating myself from you and I learned that from a very kind man. But, the most spiritual man I have ever met in AA announces himself as an alcoholic and an addict ( he also tells you his higher power is jesus). If you ever in Philadelphia go to the Last Stop and tell me I am wrong. But Eddy never talks about doing drugs in great detail, why would he? We come here to recover, not wallow. Go to a therapist to talk about that stuff, you can't transmit something you don't have!

An Alcoholic has a right to have as many problems as they want ( sex addiction, narcotic addiction, food etc..)

You will find plenty of people in AA who have other problems. They are not failing to be true to themselves by not talking about it, we usually find new guys and carry the message of recovery to them. I understand why an addict would want to go to AA, I really do! The message I get there(in NA) is not one that appeals to me ( not bad mouthing it, just parted ways with the way it evoolved into something else). I have tried through they years to go back occasionally, one thing I do always make sure I do get is some good contacts in NA. We all like to pull things out like alcohol is but a symptom, and in this day in age we should all be more open minded...

Yeah whatever!

People who suffer from alcoholism/drug addiction and other addictions suffer from extremely closed minds. They deserve ( and need) to have as many hurdles removed so they can climb the mountain. Who am I or anyone of you to stand in the way of another getting sober. And to say simply because I shot heroin you should get over your sh!t and let me talk is absolutely selfish on my part.

I agree that alcoholism and addiction are the same when you get down to root causes. But...

A few years ago I took a young guy I was 12 stepping to a young people's meeting. Seemed like a goood idea at the time. When we got there the speaker dropped more "f" bombs than the saltiest of Sailors I know ( and I know a few). As people started sharing they shared about drugs mostly ( I can relate, alcohol led me to the dope mans house alot). My new man seemed distant during the meeting. I wrote that off as new guy nerves. On the ride home he told me he didn't think he fit in ( he was 21). He was a Christian from a good family, he didn't cuss, he didn't even smoke. He drank too much and didn't know why. He was certain after that meeting it was purely a moral condition. Several months later I stood next to his crying mother while they put him in the ground.

perception is reality. Not everyone in AA ( or society for that fact) that is as enlightened as you, get recovery through teh steps, and then be there for the new guy who comes in the rooms.

It ain't about you anymore, and it ain't a selfish program. Self is the problem

CStyle

Good discussion.

While Jim posted many things that are spot on and absolutely right...he is wrong about one thing. It clearly states in the traditions that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. If someone wants to stop drinking because when they drink they smoke cigerettes, if someone ones to stop drinking because when they drink they do coke, if someone wants to stop drinking because when they drink they have sex with their dog, the point is they have a desire to stop drinking.

My name is Chato I am an alcoholic. This is how I introduce myself in an AA meeting. I suffer from terminal - Uniqueness, so must do what ever I can to help curb that affliction.

I highly suggest that all AA members listen to the AA speaker tape of Micky B. (Bush) He makes the most valid point on this matter that I have ever heard. Micky helped to start ICYPAA (international conference of young people in Alcoholics Anonymous) In over 20 young peoples conventions with thousands upon thousands of young people, he has asked the question of how many people only drank alcohol. Of all those people he has only had 1, yes one person say they only drank. We have a new generation of alcoholics coming into our program, that need our help - the same help we needed when we got here. So are we to turn them away? Our Primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics. It says our primary purpose not our Only purpose.

AA saved my life and I hope to never see the program changed, I hope to never see the first 164 pages changed, I hope to never see our primary purposed changed. That being said, we still have a responsibility to carry the message and make sure that the AA program is here for our children and great-grand childrens children. This means that we are going to have to welcome the dually addicted with open arms and open minds, and show them precisely how we recovered. When anyone anywhere reaches out, I want the hand of AA to always be there.

Mark75

Correct me if I am wrong... Isn't it more like ... exactly like :

Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

You left out the last 5 or 6 words.... I wouldn't mention it, but it's relevant... how can we unify all 12 traditions if we don't represent them accurately or completely?

I came out of Rehab as an "anda"... well, you know what, I'm not. I am an alcoholic who became dependent on drugs.... It wasn't until I got out of rehab, went to a good solid group of AAs and had many very meaningful discussions with some of the 12 steppers here that I understood that. In some ways I came out of rehab sicker than when I went in. It was when I got a good, solid, clear message... one that leads to the solution... was I able to begin to recover... identification was CRUCIAL to my journey.

My two cents

Mark

McGowdog

Jim uses the Long form of Tradition 3... all who suffer from alcoholism... Dort! Oops!

I think recovered addicts are every bit as wonderful as recovered alcoholics. But what about gamblers, sex addicts, overeaters, overachievers, cutters? Let's just make a recovery soup. Where does it end? Or more importantly, how is that working?

I took drugs while drinking booze, after drinking booze, sometimes before drinking booze and instead of drinking booze, but I'm not an addict, it's cool, I feel alive...

YouTube - K's Choice Not an Addict

tomvlll

Nobody wantsthat honor.

" Discipline yourself so others won't have to".

If you're an alky, you're welcome. Simple. Self declared.
( although a good sponsor would help qualify you).
If you're an addict that happened to drink, but are lying about being an alcoholic just because you prefer the AA fellowship, youshouldn't be there.

AA is not out to save the sick and suffering of the world.
Only the sick and suffering alcoholic.

andyaddict

If your taxes are keeping you from seeing/feeling the sunlight of the Spirit... well? I guess that's your prerogative to use the church as you see fit.

How about we adopt "confine your discussion to the problems and solutions of alcohol" as Middletown Group #1 Rule #63...

Yes sir, we'd cater only to pure and respectable alcoholics! Any others would surely destroy us. Besides, if we took in those odd ones, what would decent people say about us? We built a fine-mesh fence right around A.A. "Maybe this sounds comical now. Maybe you think we oldtimers were pretty intolerant. But I can tell you there was nothing funny about the situation then. We were grim because we felt our lives and homes were threatened, and that was no laughing matter. Intolerant, you say? Well, we were frightened. Naturally, we began to act like most everybody does when afraid. After all, isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant.

Is it really ignorance to simply consider ourselves succumbing to intolerance?

a

justanothrdrunk

I'll just throw out there that there are groups that do allow members who identify as addicts.

Pretty much all the groups in my area have members who identify as drug addicts and no one says a word. There are also some who identify as both drug addicts and alcoholics. I don't recall having ever been to a closed group in my state where someone wasn't allowed to attend having at least identified as a drug addict, let alone an alcoholic

I suspect this is largely regional.

Now whether these groups I'm speaking about are going against the traditions or not is a different argument I suppose. Personally, I have mixed feelings. Bottom line for me is it's the group conscious and the groups I attend accept addicts and alcoholics - right or wrong. If the group decides to change, so be it.

sugErspun

I am a member of AA because I have alcoholism - not "Addiction".

Even if the root is the same, there is a difference.