More Thoughts On Choice
*Grateful*
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,619
I really agree with some on here that says God gives us a free will. I have only 35 days clean and sober, and while I know that Jesus can give me strength (my HP) I also know that I am faced with the choice to not have that first drink or drug. Since I figured out that I do have a choice in the past month or so, somehow I feel free. Just cause the thought pops into my head, does not mean I have to act on the thought. I can exercise my right to not take that first drink cuz after that, I do not believe i have a choice, I am inebriated and all of my choices are skewered.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,905
I wanted soberiety.God removed my drunkeness,why would I go back to that old way of life when this one is so good?
Thats my question.It`s not so much as the drinking,but it`s the drinking and the whole old way of life, the AA way of life now is better than I could have previously imagined.Free at last & I do not want to go back!
Thats my question.It`s not so much as the drinking,but it`s the drinking and the whole old way of life, the AA way of life now is better than I could have previously imagined.Free at last & I do not want to go back!
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
God and I have an understanding..
He forgave me and took away my desire to drink.
My part is to honor that gift by sharing with those in need.
That's been going on for years and I plan to continue my part.
Prayers for serenity to everyone seeking peace
He forgave me and took away my desire to drink.
My part is to honor that gift by sharing with those in need.
That's been going on for years and I plan to continue my part.
Prayers for serenity to everyone seeking peace
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8
Sugerspun is right on the money, thanks for all the insights.
Now someone could set a beer in front of me and crack the top and push it into my hand....I can look down at the beer and i have a choice. I can choose to drink it or I can walk away. I might be powerless over alcohol, but I'm sober, and I have the power to avoid the first drink. I can walk away today. I have regained the power of choice over the first drink through recovery.
But also, about 7 years ago early in my recovery, I crossed a line. That line represents my spiritual awakening (for me anyway). What it was, was the realization that I had made it through an entire day without thinking about drinking. That was an awakening. That was the miracle, for me. That was the shift in personality sufficient enough to overcome the problem of drink.
And so now, like sugerspun pointed out, I am no longer FACING the choice every day. I didn't wake up today and say "Should I drink today?" The obsession has been lifted! I don't even have to wrestle with the choice most of the time. That is the gift of recovery....that the obsession has been lifted and I can live my life again!
God bless you all, great topic!
Now someone could set a beer in front of me and crack the top and push it into my hand....I can look down at the beer and i have a choice. I can choose to drink it or I can walk away. I might be powerless over alcohol, but I'm sober, and I have the power to avoid the first drink. I can walk away today. I have regained the power of choice over the first drink through recovery.
But also, about 7 years ago early in my recovery, I crossed a line. That line represents my spiritual awakening (for me anyway). What it was, was the realization that I had made it through an entire day without thinking about drinking. That was an awakening. That was the miracle, for me. That was the shift in personality sufficient enough to overcome the problem of drink.
And so now, like sugerspun pointed out, I am no longer FACING the choice every day. I didn't wake up today and say "Should I drink today?" The obsession has been lifted! I don't even have to wrestle with the choice most of the time. That is the gift of recovery....that the obsession has been lifted and I can live my life again!
God bless you all, great topic!
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
Acknowledging and demanding personal responsibility is not some form of faithlessness, it is rather the knowledge that I was taught how to fish and now I can feed myself. Personal choice is not about whether God is or is not, faithful or faithless; it is the recognition that I am personally accountable and responsible first, not God. If you use God as the shield against reality, you are a fool.
Last edited by RufusACanal; 02-24-2008 at 06:50 AM.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
Were we created to be the servant who selfishly hides his Master's share against loss? No, we were first given the gift of life then molded in the crucible of Alcoholism to increase that share, not hide it. As the flood rises around your house and the water laps at your feet, do you wait on your own stubborn conception of how God will save you or do you take the rescuers hand?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 558
Rufus, your comments remind me of this joke:
It was flooding in California. As the flood waters were rising, a man was on the stoop of his house and another man in a row boat came by. The man in the row boat told the man on the stoop to get in and he'd save him. The man on the stoop said, no, he had faith in God and would wait for God to save him. The flood waters kept rising and the man had to go to the second floor of his house. A man in a motor boat came by and told the man in the house to get in because he had come to rescue him. The man in the house said no thank you. He had perfect faith in God and would wait for God to save him. The flood waters kept rising. Pretty soon they were up to the man's roof and he got out on the roof. A helicopter then came by, lowered a rope and the pilot shouted down in the man in the house to climb up the rope because the helicopeter had come to rescue him. The man in the house wouldn't get in. He told the pilot that he had faith in God and would wait for God to rescue him. The flood waters kept rising and the man in the house drowned. When he got to heaven, he asked God where he went wrong. He told God that he had perfect faith in God, but God had let him drown.
"What more do you want from me?" asked God. "I sent you two boats and a helicopter."
It was flooding in California. As the flood waters were rising, a man was on the stoop of his house and another man in a row boat came by. The man in the row boat told the man on the stoop to get in and he'd save him. The man on the stoop said, no, he had faith in God and would wait for God to save him. The flood waters kept rising and the man had to go to the second floor of his house. A man in a motor boat came by and told the man in the house to get in because he had come to rescue him. The man in the house said no thank you. He had perfect faith in God and would wait for God to save him. The flood waters kept rising. Pretty soon they were up to the man's roof and he got out on the roof. A helicopter then came by, lowered a rope and the pilot shouted down in the man in the house to climb up the rope because the helicopeter had come to rescue him. The man in the house wouldn't get in. He told the pilot that he had faith in God and would wait for God to rescue him. The flood waters kept rising and the man in the house drowned. When he got to heaven, he asked God where he went wrong. He told God that he had perfect faith in God, but God had let him drown.
"What more do you want from me?" asked God. "I sent you two boats and a helicopter."
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
Posts: 974
I didn't choose to be an alcoholic. I can't choose not to be an alcoholic.
I believe that it is not my higher power's will for me to die from alcoholism and that recovery is possible if I am willing to do my part. If I do my part, I will realize that God is doing for me what I could not do by myself. I choose to do my part, God is not making me do my part.
So how come I couldn't do all of the spiritual work and ask God to allow me to be able to drink like a non-alcoholic? I might as well ask God to make me tall enough and skilled enough to play in the NBA. It's just not going to happen. God made me 5'6", rather uncoordinated, and an alcoholic. I can accept that or I can deny it, I can't choose to change it.
I believe that it is not my higher power's will for me to die from alcoholism and that recovery is possible if I am willing to do my part. If I do my part, I will realize that God is doing for me what I could not do by myself. I choose to do my part, God is not making me do my part.
So how come I couldn't do all of the spiritual work and ask God to allow me to be able to drink like a non-alcoholic? I might as well ask God to make me tall enough and skilled enough to play in the NBA. It's just not going to happen. God made me 5'6", rather uncoordinated, and an alcoholic. I can accept that or I can deny it, I can't choose to change it.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
This is the difference; the idea of powerlessness is true because of the real absense of knowledge to beat the powerful unaided. There must be a decision on our part to make the choice to change that comes from within, not from without. The example of change in height is ludicrous because it does not answer, much less address the responsibility for living we are each given as a result of God's gift of life. When any person makes a desicion coupled with action to change from the pain of the past and present to freedom in the future, they do it of their own free will. This is why the First Step must be worked over and over until the practice becomes routine and the rountine becomes the psychic change that completely transforms the mind. I choose everyday to continue the path I am on. I was blind, now I can see.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 2,274
I can choose to drink or not to drink today. If I choose to drink, I lose the ability to choose again. My freedom to choose depends on abstaining from drinking. I ask God to help me choose not to drink each day, but I believe that God never takes away me choice. Only I can take it away by drinking again.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
My Ego really really wants to take credit for not drinking yesterday (in fact, another whole day where the thought of taking a drink did not cross my mind)...but when I meditate and settle for the night.
I know who gets the credit.
This is not about hiding from personal responsibility, it's about living aligned with the will of a power that is ANYTHING other than my alcoholic mind.
Come to think of it, I have created very little wreckage in recent months. What do I have to be accountable for? Being a better boyfriend, employee, AA member, tax-payer, son, brother?
No longer on my tip-toes, held in the palm of the hand of something I don't or probably never will understand. I am ok with the path that was laid out before me in AA that clearly said that I have lost choice in regard to alcohol - that Ego can take a back seat - I see him and hear him, but his power has been diminished.
There is a part of me that, in two weeks (God willing I will have 1 full year in two weeks) to take a cake, get up and tell a group (mine doesnt do cakes so I would have to go to some other group to get one) how 'I' haven't drank, how I chose the right path, all the great things that I have done and have happened to ME. Chances are, I won't be taking any cake or having anyone sing and clap to me because I haven't drank for a year - and to get up there and thank God just belittle's the true miracle that has taken place.
I will give the 5 minutes that my homegroup gives birthday's at the end of each month, nothing more. I have enough year coins to just as soon not take any more.
Ekchart Tolle puts it well - some people's Ego actually grows when they begin meditating and attempting to be present. They missed the whole point and it's still the ego driving the show under a different guise (now I am not creating wreckage, I am choosing to be better)...that is still "I I I I, ME ME ME ME" - just a different angle. Not the fourth dimension of which we could have never dreamed.
There is a difference.
This is not about mastering choice, or just making better choices these days becuase I learned something new.
That is nothing but word-play.
I know who gets the credit.
This is not about hiding from personal responsibility, it's about living aligned with the will of a power that is ANYTHING other than my alcoholic mind.
Come to think of it, I have created very little wreckage in recent months. What do I have to be accountable for? Being a better boyfriend, employee, AA member, tax-payer, son, brother?
No longer on my tip-toes, held in the palm of the hand of something I don't or probably never will understand. I am ok with the path that was laid out before me in AA that clearly said that I have lost choice in regard to alcohol - that Ego can take a back seat - I see him and hear him, but his power has been diminished.
There is a part of me that, in two weeks (God willing I will have 1 full year in two weeks) to take a cake, get up and tell a group (mine doesnt do cakes so I would have to go to some other group to get one) how 'I' haven't drank, how I chose the right path, all the great things that I have done and have happened to ME. Chances are, I won't be taking any cake or having anyone sing and clap to me because I haven't drank for a year - and to get up there and thank God just belittle's the true miracle that has taken place.
I will give the 5 minutes that my homegroup gives birthday's at the end of each month, nothing more. I have enough year coins to just as soon not take any more.
Ekchart Tolle puts it well - some people's Ego actually grows when they begin meditating and attempting to be present. They missed the whole point and it's still the ego driving the show under a different guise (now I am not creating wreckage, I am choosing to be better)...that is still "I I I I, ME ME ME ME" - just a different angle. Not the fourth dimension of which we could have never dreamed.
There is a difference.
This is not about mastering choice, or just making better choices these days becuase I learned something new.
That is nothing but word-play.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 386
This has been a great thread, I thank everyone for their input.
I should like to make clear that I haven't had a craving for some years now, but in early sobriety the urge to drink was strong in the first month or so, after that it got easier, and as I say, I don't even think about drinking now.
Once I was detoxed physically, the physical cravings left me, and after that my program taught me to deal with the emotional and mental urges. My brain fog began to clear and then I could put my effort into embracing my program of choice.
I cannot imagine a recovery where one is hanging on by one's finger nails every single day, it would be hellish.
I have seen many people living that way in all the programs out there.
We must make a commitment to our sobriety, to nurture it, so it will grow and thrive, and then we will do the same.
Congrats to Sugar on his upcoming one year mark!
Seren
I should like to make clear that I haven't had a craving for some years now, but in early sobriety the urge to drink was strong in the first month or so, after that it got easier, and as I say, I don't even think about drinking now.
Once I was detoxed physically, the physical cravings left me, and after that my program taught me to deal with the emotional and mental urges. My brain fog began to clear and then I could put my effort into embracing my program of choice.
I cannot imagine a recovery where one is hanging on by one's finger nails every single day, it would be hellish.
I have seen many people living that way in all the programs out there.
We must make a commitment to our sobriety, to nurture it, so it will grow and thrive, and then we will do the same.
Congrats to Sugar on his upcoming one year mark!
Seren
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,706
My Ego really really wants to take credit for not drinking yesterday (in fact, another whole day where the thought of taking a drink did not cross my mind)...but when I meditate and settle for the night.
I know who gets the credit.
I know who gets the credit.
Do your position make you any less ego-driven than me ? Does mine make me any more egoistic than you ? I'd doubt it.
it's not about me putting myself above God or before Him - it's about being who I believe he wants me to be, and doing what I believe he wants me to do.
We're just looking at it from different perspectives.
Mine's right and yours is...
LOL kidding kidding
D
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Google the following: "ego alcoholism"
I am much more than my ego. Part of my spiritual path is delving into "Am I really more than my thoughts, body, actions" - stuff that is probably best left off this board, but it dovetails sobriety beautifully.
If anyone is interested, look up the writings of J Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, OSHO, you will start to see the part the 'ego' really plays in our lives. Heck, pick up Frannie and Zooey and give it a read (Salinger), it's more entertaining.
As related to alcoholism - Dr Harry Tiebout's article on the mechanism of ego on alcoholics remains the best I have read to date.
The part that the Freudian ego plays in alcoholism is extrememly useful in my experience...we may have to disagree on that dee.
I am much more than my ego. Part of my spiritual path is delving into "Am I really more than my thoughts, body, actions" - stuff that is probably best left off this board, but it dovetails sobriety beautifully.
If anyone is interested, look up the writings of J Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, OSHO, you will start to see the part the 'ego' really plays in our lives. Heck, pick up Frannie and Zooey and give it a read (Salinger), it's more entertaining.
As related to alcoholism - Dr Harry Tiebout's article on the mechanism of ego on alcoholics remains the best I have read to date.
The part that the Freudian ego plays in alcoholism is extrememly useful in my experience...we may have to disagree on that dee.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
Sug, your insight this last year has been remarkable and I thank you for making me look again and again. Searching for answers is the focus of my journey. The canvas is still incomplete and I hope never to finish, though I do look to continue the process of painting my experiences, one by one. To be proud of self is an achievement I will relish for abit more and I refuse to apologize for it. I prefer to consider the ego much like I do magic in the hands of one my characters; magic in and of itself is neither good nor evil, it is the intent of the magic user that shapes the direction of the magic to the good or to the evil.
I am not where I want to be, but I am damn sure on the right path!
I am not where I want to be, but I am damn sure on the right path!
Evolving Addict
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York State
Posts: 3,067
Hey guys!! Great thread and very thought provoking.
Sorry, but I couldn't help not joining in. As some of you already know, this topic has been slapped around pretty good...and although I have my own position and/or belief on this subject... I'm curious:
In the BB, it says, "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps."
Doesn't that "If" means a choice was made?
It has been shared that no choice is mentioned in any step other that step three. Yet, in the 1st step, don't we make a choice to admit our powerlessness & unmanageability? Don't we choose to believe (and what we believe) in step 2? In step 4, don't some of us still cling to denial or fear and select what it is we inventory? For step 5, does everyone get assigned that "another human being" or do we choose who we share our inventory with? In step 6, is becoming "entirely ready" an event or a process? And if it is a process, who determines when one is entirely ready? I could go on...
just curious to what others think...
Sorry, but I couldn't help not joining in. As some of you already know, this topic has been slapped around pretty good...and although I have my own position and/or belief on this subject... I'm curious:
In the BB, it says, "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps."
Doesn't that "If" means a choice was made?
It has been shared that no choice is mentioned in any step other that step three. Yet, in the 1st step, don't we make a choice to admit our powerlessness & unmanageability? Don't we choose to believe (and what we believe) in step 2? In step 4, don't some of us still cling to denial or fear and select what it is we inventory? For step 5, does everyone get assigned that "another human being" or do we choose who we share our inventory with? In step 6, is becoming "entirely ready" an event or a process? And if it is a process, who determines when one is entirely ready? I could go on...
just curious to what others think...
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