Shamal

What amuses me is that Bill W was doing some very regular workshops with LSD to aid as a tool to awaken spirituality, yet if you talk to an oldtimer about using hallucinogens for spiritual growth (in the context of being used as they have been for thousands of years) it's an absolute, no-discussion-will-be-entered-into capital N capital O.

This puts the movement into a 'Do as I say, not as I do' mentality. But, as I'm learning each day, folks have their own mindset, just as society at large.

Shamal

courage2, I don't think you have much of an idea of what it is you're arguing for or against. For the most part, I'm in your camp, but as you appear to be looking for a stoush at any cost, I will respectfully request that you tone down your negative attitude towards me.

courage2

Dude, I'm just riffing. I'm the littlest pinhead of all, but my angels can dance like hell. Open your eyes -- and your heart -- to all the things you can't control. I wish great things for you & for us all in recovery.

xxoo

sincerely

Ken33xx

And that's too bad.

I often recommend to those new in AA that it's a good idea to check out various meetings as they often differ in format and flavor.

Ken33xx

From what I've read about the man I think BW would have preferred his struggles within sobriety weren't swept under the carpet. He was flawed but aren't we all? Imo, his brilliance was in the way he put the AA program together: no dues, no leaders, no opinion on outside issues and the only requirement is to be an alcoholic.

Shamal

There's nothing to suggest that the path he took with psycho/spiritual development in the 1950's was a struggle. Although it was swept under the carpet, as with some unsavoury elements of his life, when AA became bigger than him (as it was always intended), as if the organization were embarrassed that the founder was moving into territories not aligned with the organization's doctrine.

For the most part, I'm dismissive of Bill W. 'praise', and I really don't want what he had (apart from maybe the LSD therapies with Aldous Huxley ha ha). A womanizing, adulterous chronic smoker who seemed to never lose the compulsion to drink, as he begged for a quart of hard liqor on his death bed - again I understand that the AA council went to great lengths to stop this, thus saving face for the continued longevity of the movement.

Grungehead

tomsteve

You claim more open mindedness yet would walk out if more than one person mentioned jesus as their higher power??
It says in the big book we can call our higher power whatever we want.
That's the beauty of it! That's part of what has kept the fellowship alive.

Each group is autonomous, which is self governing. They choose if there will even be a prayer. That's the beauty of it!!!! That's part of what has kept the fellowship alive.

You don't live in the U.S.
Why in the hell are you even being concerned with anything thousands of miles away and out of your power??.

Your more,than welcome to start a meeting and recite from the Quran.
Just as I am allowed to not attend That meeting.

tomsteve

Why blame AA for the 5% success rate you claim? Did AA put a drink in anyone's hand?
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.

Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.

Dee74

let's all remember rule 4 please.

Respect is a two way street.

Dee
Moderator
SR

miamifella

I wonder what would happen if someone went into one of those meetings and called their higher power "Satan"?

(I never heard anyone getting away with talking about "Jesus" in a meeting.)

Mountainmanbob

We here in a Lakeside meeting of AA many years ago did have a man come into a meeting and state that fact, "he followed the devil." I never saw him again. I think that he was trying to make some kind of a statement ?


Some will know that their father is the devil and admit it. Others will have the devil as their father and yet not know it.

John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


MountainmanBob

anattaboy

My only higher powers are gravity, time and occasionally my wife. Alcohol was until I stopped drinking it--same with smokes. I am a grateful recovered superstitionist but hold the human spirit in the highest regard. Magical thinking is so darned....unreliable.

esinger

I rotated 6 different meetings over a total of over a year between going back "out". Started each stint with the recommend 90 in 90. Now almost 2.5 years clean doing it my way instead of doing what I was told. Not saying that if it works for you, you should stop going. Just not my thing I guess. Wasn't going to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.

freshstart57

Sarcasm and attacks on the person aren't very good ways to explain your point of view, I'd suggest. If you are agreeing with this, and that only 1 in 20 find AA to be their answer to sobriety, how is it you are blaming the other 19 for the program failure? Blaming the victim is a miserable approach. 'It works if you work it' applies just as well, and more simply, to deciding to quit drinking and doing it.

I agree that we each of us have responsiblity for our behaviours, TomSteve. That is an excellent starting point.

Shamal

How many months sober were Bill & Bob when they wrote the Big Book?

Boleo

Maybe AA is a form of faith healing... So what? Why look a gift horse in the mouth. If the shoe fits.. why not ware it. If it makes no sense... Who cares, Spiritual Principles don't need to make sense to get results.

Yes... AA does tell it's members to "turn it over to a higher power", but only after trying everything thing else first. AA works best when it is the last resort. I have never seen a cult that would say that.

CupofJoe

I used to go to a meeting occasionally where a lot of the members talked about God and Jesus. One guy in this group used to say his higher power was Satan and he'd never done the steps, but he was happily sober. He always used to make a point that you can believe and do anything and still be a member of AA. He was an accepted member of the group.

This was an "anything goes" kind of group, but also a group where they'd let a homeless drunk sleep it off in the back and when he wet himself, they'd clean it up during the meeting and not make a fuss.

I went to an atheist/agnostic meeting once where the topic of discussion was "What do you hate most about AA?"

Maybe not to everyone's taste, but it definitely made the impression on me in my early days that AA is most definitely not a cult. Or if it is, it's a really, really badly run one, hahaha.

I think sometimes individual members can make it seem like a cult, but in my experience, you can say and do anything you want and still be a member.

EndGameNYC

I went to AA many years ago to get sober, not to debate the principles of the program. There were very few options at the time, so I've no idea whether or not I'd have chosen something else if such a thing existed. When I went back to AA three-and-a-half years ago following a three-year relapse after twenty five years without a drink, I did so because I'd built a very good life for myself prior to my relapse. The problem with attempting to recover on my terms was that doing so had no track record for success, and that AA did.

I've done graduate work in philosophy and psychology. I'm on intimate terms with the arguments for and against the existence of God. I find them uncompelling and tiresome; philosophy in inaction.

I've never been easily persuaded to do anything, so I didn't care about some of the goofy suggestions I heard. Some of the things I heard in meetings angered me, so much so that I no longer recall what they were. No one ever questioned my sobriety, told me that I needed to go to more meetings, or said that I'd drink again or die if I didn't believe in a Higher Power. One guy approached me early on and told me that he smokes weed as a replacement for alcohol. He offered to be my sponsor. I think he wanted someone to get high with who wasn't drinking.

Why would I care if it turns out that I achieved sobriety with the help of a cult? Sobriety doesn't know where it comes from, and if it did, it wouldn't care.

JeffreyAK

I personally agree with your characterization of AA as a cult, but what I've also found is that most recovery groups, religious or secular, have these sorts of old-timers who never move on in life, and morph into evangelists for their chosen recovey approach that worked for them. I think you're right, many of us have deeper issues that we ought to work on for our own happiness, or at least the happiness of others around us , once we're solidly sober, but AA is perhaps more likely to attract these sorts of old-timers because of its cultural emphasis on meetings, meetings, meetings forever or you're gonna relapse. But you will also find dysfunctional old-timers in LifeRing and Smart groups, so it's not unique to AA. I've personally backed way off from my main early recovery support group, LifeRing, largely for this very reason. I think one must eventually move on, and maybe keep a toehold in the recovery world but stop making it the focus of day-to-day life.