Is tracking sober time useful?
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Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 527
For context: My recovery is based 100% on A.A., and I have no experience with RR/AVRT. To a large degree, I simply take the tracking of recovery time for granted because it's such a core part of A.A. as I know it -- so, I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on that practice more consciously.
One of my initial reactions to the thought of foregoing a sobriety date / sober time is that it freaks me out a bit because my 18+ years of sobriety does mean something to me and holding on to that does seem to provide at least some incentive to stay sober.
My second reaction is that I believe sober time can serve a "guidance" function for others. First, the mere fact that long-term sobriety is possible may be helpful. Second, length of sobriety can be helpful in identifying a sponsor.
Having said all that, I do think that my AV (perhaps AKA "my disease" or "the Devil") is perfectly capable of using any pride I might have in my sobriety time against me -- particularly if I start to buy into the lie that I should be beyond still acting like a complete a-hole on more occasions than I'd like to admit, or that I somehow no longer need to work all my program like I did in early recovery.
Bottom line: I'm unlikely to stop keeping track of my sober time, and I'll continue to mention it and celebrate it at meetings for the reasons stated above. But, as the Big Book says, my disease is "cunning, baffling, and powerful" and I must practice "special vigilance" to avoid any sort of "big-shot-ism" (12x12). I do this by continuing to tell on myself regularly in meetings and in conversation with trusted fellow travelers in recovery.
Thanks!
One of my initial reactions to the thought of foregoing a sobriety date / sober time is that it freaks me out a bit because my 18+ years of sobriety does mean something to me and holding on to that does seem to provide at least some incentive to stay sober.
My second reaction is that I believe sober time can serve a "guidance" function for others. First, the mere fact that long-term sobriety is possible may be helpful. Second, length of sobriety can be helpful in identifying a sponsor.
Having said all that, I do think that my AV (perhaps AKA "my disease" or "the Devil") is perfectly capable of using any pride I might have in my sobriety time against me -- particularly if I start to buy into the lie that I should be beyond still acting like a complete a-hole on more occasions than I'd like to admit, or that I somehow no longer need to work all my program like I did in early recovery.
Bottom line: I'm unlikely to stop keeping track of my sober time, and I'll continue to mention it and celebrate it at meetings for the reasons stated above. But, as the Big Book says, my disease is "cunning, baffling, and powerful" and I must practice "special vigilance" to avoid any sort of "big-shot-ism" (12x12). I do this by continuing to tell on myself regularly in meetings and in conversation with trusted fellow travelers in recovery.
Thanks!
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Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: New England, U.S
Posts: 204
thank you for posting the link Aellyce. I started on part 6 last night and find it extremely helpful and interesting. I will start at the beginning and I'm sure learn things and reinforce other things.
As a side note, it's true, Algorithim has many incredible posts on those earlier threads. I was struck by Terminal Uniqueness however. I know this sounds ridiculous but I could swear that was Trimpey himself with those posts and thoughts. TU either captured his style and"voice" perfectly or it was JT himself. Of course, we will never know the truth but it was pretty amazing to read. ( I don't want to turn into one of the runner's who jog with Forrest Gump across the country thinking he is some god or oracle....ha,ha- BUT.....)
Hello Tatsy- very nice to meet you. And thank you MSL- for adding another rivet to the hull, so to speak.
As a side note, it's true, Algorithim has many incredible posts on those earlier threads. I was struck by Terminal Uniqueness however. I know this sounds ridiculous but I could swear that was Trimpey himself with those posts and thoughts. TU either captured his style and"voice" perfectly or it was JT himself. Of course, we will never know the truth but it was pretty amazing to read. ( I don't want to turn into one of the runner's who jog with Forrest Gump across the country thinking he is some god or oracle....ha,ha- BUT.....)
Hello Tatsy- very nice to meet you. And thank you MSL- for adding another rivet to the hull, so to speak.
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Posts: 10,912
Novips - I absolutely think we should be proud of climbing out of the deep hole of a serious addiction, I think many (most?) people would agree that it was the most difficult thing we'd ever done. It definitely has been in my own life, no other challenge comes even close to it, I would put it at least in the first ten rows of my significant challenges so far. I always find it interesting how I hear mixed views from those who got sober in AA, some do say they were told from beginning that the goal is permanent abstinence. Others focus on "one day at a time". I read the BB and tried some meetings but never got into the actual program or experienced a lot of the vibe first-hand. Probably depends on location and group as well. But I never saw AA and other 12 step approaches as programs that do not advocate for permanent abstinence, the way I see it is they just try to find ways to make the struggle a bit easier, so break it down... maybe I'm wrong.
As far as I know it's only moderation and some harm reduction programs whose end goal is not total abstinence for life. Even many harm reduction approaches typically make it clear that the ideal eventual state would be to become completely free of the addictive substance, it's just many are never able to achieve it, so a compromise with some replacement and eliminating some aspects of destruction is created for them. I am actually not against harm reduction at all and we could say that's what I had been doing between, say, 2010 and 2020... not with that goal in mind, but due to a lack of strong enough determination to finally achieve the real deal.
I enjoyed counting the days and tracking my sober time myself twice, for a while... first in 2014 when I started posting here on SR a lot and had some half-assed desire to recover, second ten years later last fall, when I finally really took it seriously. It did make me feel accomplished and proud - until I relapsed. After relapse, the effect of remembering the time has more just irritated me, because it gives me a sense of failure, which I generally hate with things I am serious about. But, as I said before, I believe this will fade with time (sober time) for me.
Slaying - haha, I had my Jack suspect here on SR myself, but it wasn't Terminally Unique
... I love TU's posts, probably the closest to my own style (from the AVRT devotees) with how they explain things I've read on SR. Very knowledgeable, clearly made it work and was on a mission to help others for a while, yet open-minded enough, not dogmatic. I personally doubt that Trimpey has never been here on SR, at least lurking, and in fact I found some old admin posts that apparently he had a history with SR. It makes perfect sense to me, I would definitely be here as well to at least see how my work is received. And he must be more than used to debates and criticism. Like many others, I would like to know what he is doing these days out of curiosity, but I also like how he is so relentlessly his own person, not marching to anyone's drum but his own. I'm a lot like that myself, albeit not so contrarian. Sometimes people imagine him as an aggressive, dismissive jerk but, from the videos I saw, he does not appear like that at all.
As far as I know it's only moderation and some harm reduction programs whose end goal is not total abstinence for life. Even many harm reduction approaches typically make it clear that the ideal eventual state would be to become completely free of the addictive substance, it's just many are never able to achieve it, so a compromise with some replacement and eliminating some aspects of destruction is created for them. I am actually not against harm reduction at all and we could say that's what I had been doing between, say, 2010 and 2020... not with that goal in mind, but due to a lack of strong enough determination to finally achieve the real deal.
I enjoyed counting the days and tracking my sober time myself twice, for a while... first in 2014 when I started posting here on SR a lot and had some half-assed desire to recover, second ten years later last fall, when I finally really took it seriously. It did make me feel accomplished and proud - until I relapsed. After relapse, the effect of remembering the time has more just irritated me, because it gives me a sense of failure, which I generally hate with things I am serious about. But, as I said before, I believe this will fade with time (sober time) for me.
Slaying - haha, I had my Jack suspect here on SR myself, but it wasn't Terminally Unique
... I love TU's posts, probably the closest to my own style (from the AVRT devotees) with how they explain things I've read on SR. Very knowledgeable, clearly made it work and was on a mission to help others for a while, yet open-minded enough, not dogmatic. I personally doubt that Trimpey has never been here on SR, at least lurking, and in fact I found some old admin posts that apparently he had a history with SR. It makes perfect sense to me, I would definitely be here as well to at least see how my work is received. And he must be more than used to debates and criticism. Like many others, I would like to know what he is doing these days out of curiosity, but I also like how he is so relentlessly his own person, not marching to anyone's drum but his own. I'm a lot like that myself, albeit not so contrarian. Sometimes people imagine him as an aggressive, dismissive jerk but, from the videos I saw, he does not appear like that at all.Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by Aellyce 
There have been quite a few highly prolific, inspired and intense AVRT enthusiast contributors in the Secular section of SR over the years. They post a lot and engage in discussion deeply for a while (sometimes months, something a couple years) then disappear. Some show up every now and then but become more enigmatic about the state of their recovery.
I often wonder what this means - do most/many of these members just move on, as it is "supposed to" happen with this approach? Or disappear / become more low-key because they could not keep their Big Plan and would feel too exposed and ashamed coming back to admit it didn't quite work out as intended, even just say they needed to change the approach?
I often wonder what this means - do most/many of these members just move on, as it is "supposed to" happen with this approach? Or disappear / become more low-key because they could not keep their Big Plan and would feel too exposed and ashamed coming back to admit it didn't quite work out as intended, even just say they needed to change the approach?
Probably a mix of these, it would be hard to ever find out true success rate I guess, even how to measure the outcome of the "forever" pledge with any accuracy. Is anyone aware of any literature on this, even from Trimpey's older follow-up studies, that is more detailed than what's mentioned in the main RR book?
I would not let my own commitment and sobriety influenced by any such statistic but it's hard not to wonder just out of curiosity...
I would not let my own commitment and sobriety influenced by any such statistic but it's hard not to wonder just out of curiosity...
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by Aellyce
...do most/many of these members just move on, as it is "supposed to" happen with this approach? Or disappear / become more low-key because they could not keep their Big Plan and would feel too exposed and ashamed coming back to admit it didn't quite work out as intended, even just say they needed to change the approach?...
Someone who makes a Big Plan KNOWS absolutely that will never happen to them.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by novips
For context: My recovery is based 100% on A.A., and I have no experience with RR/AVRT. To a large degree, I simply take the tracking of recovery time for granted because it's such a core part of A.A. as I know it -- so, I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on that practice more consciously.
One of my initial reactions to the thought of foregoing a sobriety date / sober time is that it freaks me out a bit because my 18+ years of sobriety does mean something to me and holding on to that does seem to provide at least some incentive to stay sober.
My second reaction is that I believe sober time can serve a "guidance" function for others. First, the mere fact that long-term sobriety is possible may be helpful. Second, length of sobriety can be helpful in identifying a sponsor.
Having said all that, I do think that my AV (perhaps AKA "my disease" or "the Devil") is perfectly capable of using any pride I might have in my sobriety time against me -- particularly if I start to buy into the lie that I should be beyond still acting like a complete a-hole on more occasions than I'd like to admit, or that I somehow no longer need to work all my program like I did in early recovery.
Bottom line: I'm unlikely to stop keeping track of my sober time, and I'll continue to mention it and celebrate it at meetings for the reasons stated above. But, as the Big Book says, my disease is "cunning, baffling, and powerful" and I must practice "special vigilance" to avoid any sort of "big-shot-ism" (12x12). I do this by continuing to tell on myself regularly in meetings and in conversation with trusted fellow travelers in recovery.
Thanks!
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
This link shows some interesting statistics
In the quest for understanding the prevalence of permanent abstinence, I think the information given in this article is foundational.
If one third of all adult people in the U.S. are permanent abstainers here are the next questions.
How many of them NEVER even tried drinking alcohol? Probably a minority.
How many of them TRIED drinking and found that they should quit before they get hooked? Another minority.
How many of them used to be chemically dependent and decided to quit? Another minority. But this minority is probably still many millions of people. They knew the problems that could be created by going for outside help to quit.
That’s why I think it’s great that SR is here. People can learn anonymously how to end an addiction and their recovery once and for all by taking the pledge and becoming a permanent abstainer.
In the quest for understanding the prevalence of permanent abstinence, I think the information given in this article is foundational.
If one third of all adult people in the U.S. are permanent abstainers here are the next questions.
How many of them NEVER even tried drinking alcohol? Probably a minority.
How many of them TRIED drinking and found that they should quit before they get hooked? Another minority.
How many of them used to be chemically dependent and decided to quit? Another minority. But this minority is probably still many millions of people. They knew the problems that could be created by going for outside help to quit.
That’s why I think it’s great that SR is here. People can learn anonymously how to end an addiction and their recovery once and for all by taking the pledge and becoming a permanent abstainer.
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This thread poses a problem in the Permanent Abstinence Based Recovery secular forum in that Aellyce, the OP, wanted a discussion from all interested parties, all practitioners of Permanent Abstinence Based Recovery, not just RR/AVRT.
However its clearly spelt out in forum description that discussion of 12 step recovery are not allowed in that particular forum.
Some of you know that, and some clearly do not....so I think the sensible solution is to move this thread to another forum (this one) so that no posts will be removed and the discussion can continue.
Dee
Administrator
SR
However its clearly spelt out in forum description that discussion of 12 step recovery are not allowed in that particular forum.
Self-Empowering Recovery, through the lens of Addictive Voice Recognition.
12 step topics are off topic for this forum and posts will be removed, as will any bashing or off-topic debates.
12 step topics are off topic for this forum and posts will be removed, as will any bashing or off-topic debates.
Dee
Administrator
SR
Hangovers Suck!
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Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Aellyce
I absolutely believe that most people who resolve an addiction (and many other mental health issues) do it on their own, as the RR book also claims.
Here's what I have personal experience with:
I've been to AA, and it helped at first, until I got to the sponsor and 12 steps part. At the time I was working a full time job in the evenings, and operating a small business venture during the day. The "work" my sponsor assigned me was just too much. I was already putting in 80 hour weeks and I just did not have the time or desire to do the 12 steps, and did not (and still do not) see the relevance of doing anything other than abstaining from alcohol. In that way, I 100% agree with Trimpy - get sober and then worry about other mental health issues and making things right with others.
I know I've said this repeatedly, but I'll say it again - I've seen AA work for people. It provides community and comradery and that is helpful to many people. Do what works for you and don't try and dissuade people who thrive in the AA environment.
As to Trimpy and RR and the Big Plan et al, I am bothered by the outright hostility toward AA and what Trimpy calls "The Recovery movement". I get the part about the hostility toward the American judicial system forcing people into AA as a part of the legal remedy for DUI's. This is a violation of the separation of church and state because of the religious portion of AA. I got a DUI in 1983 in California and had to enroll in, and pay for, a Level 1 Alcohol Abuse Program. Part of that program was a requirement to attend 6 AA meetings. I was given a card to have the AA group leader sign and return to the Level 1 counsellor. So much for the "anonymous part". I think that government mandated religious recovery is a Constitutional Civil Rights violation - I can see and agree with that hostility. But Trimpy's hostility to the program in general makes little sense. RR would have been better served by being presented as an option and left at that - "hey, you tried and failed at AA - give RR a chance."
Whether you choose to follow AA and the Big Book, or RR and the Big Plan, it is ultimately 100% up to you to remain sober.
If counting days helps you and makes you happy, count the days! If you think counting the days is counterproductive, then don't! Just be sober either way. No need to tell someone who gets joy out of counting days they are somehow wrong for doing it.
To me, it is the height of arrogance to claim your "Plan" cannot fail if you're and adult or whatever, or if you "work the plan", blah, blah blah. Yes - your Plan can fail because it's NOT the plan at all - it's YOU. I personally know several people unaware of RR, and who never even considered AA that just decided it was time to stop, and they stopped. I'm talking lifetime sobriety by simply deciding - 20, 30 40 and one guy 50 years.
That tells me there came a point in every successfully recovered addicts life that they made a decision to be permanently abstinent whether they followed a "Plan" or simply did it on their own.
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
How many of them used to be chemically dependent and decided to quit? Another minority. But this minority is probably still many millions of people. They knew the problems that could be created by going for outside help to quit.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Originally Posted by Aellyce
Thanks for the article GT, it's interesting. I have a question though regarding the bolded statement above. How do you infer, from this statistic and from what the article says, that those people didn't go for outside help for quitting? I think simply the fact that they don't drink at all, even the assumption that they used to have a drinking problem, does not really say anything about how they became abstainers.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Originally Posted by JustJohn
I believe the same. Regardless of the "system" people choose, it is ultimately a decision to never drink again.
Here's what I have personal experience with:
I've been to AA, and it helped at first, until I got to the sponsor and 12 steps part. At the time I was working a full time job in the evenings, and operating a small business venture during the day. The "work" my sponsor assigned me was just too much. I was already putting in 80 hour weeks and I just did not have the time or desire to do the 12 steps, and did not (and still do not) see the relevance of doing anything other than abstaining from alcohol. In that way, I 100% agree with Trimpy - get sober and then worry about other mental health issues and making things right with others.
I know I've said this repeatedly, but I'll say it again - I've seen AA work for people. It provides community and comradery and that is helpful to many people. Do what works for you and don't try and dissuade people who thrive in the AA environment.
As to Trimpy and RR and the Big Plan et al, I am bothered by the outright hostility toward AA and what Trimpy calls "The Recovery movement". I get the part about the hostility toward the American judicial system forcing people into AA as a part of the legal remedy for DUI's. This is a violation of the separation of church and state because of the religious portion of AA. I got a DUI in 1983 in California and had to enroll in, and pay for, a Level 1 Alcohol Abuse Program. Part of that program was a requirement to attend 6 AA meetings. I was given a card to have the AA group leader sign and return to the Level 1 counsellor. So much for the "anonymous part". I think that government mandated religious recovery is a Constitutional Civil Rights violation - I can see and agree with that hostility. But Trimpy's hostility to the program in general makes little sense. RR would have been better served by being presented as an option and left at that - "hey, you tried and failed at AA - give RR a chance."
Whether you choose to follow AA and the Big Book, or RR and the Big Plan, it is ultimately 100% up to you to remain sober.
If counting days helps you and makes you happy, count the days! If you think counting the days is counterproductive, then don't! Just be sober either way. No need to tell someone who gets joy out of counting days they are somehow wrong for doing it.
To me, it is the height of arrogance to claim your "Plan" cannot fail if you're and adult or whatever, or if you "work the plan", blah, blah blah. Yes - your Plan can fail because it's NOT the plan at all - it's YOU. I personally know several people unaware of RR, and who never even considered AA that just decided it was time to stop, and they stopped. I'm talking lifetime sobriety by simply deciding - 20, 30 40 and one guy 50 years.
That tells me there came a point in every successfully recovered addicts life that they made a decision to be permanently abstinent whether they followed a "Plan" or simply did it on their own.
Here's what I have personal experience with:
I've been to AA, and it helped at first, until I got to the sponsor and 12 steps part. At the time I was working a full time job in the evenings, and operating a small business venture during the day. The "work" my sponsor assigned me was just too much. I was already putting in 80 hour weeks and I just did not have the time or desire to do the 12 steps, and did not (and still do not) see the relevance of doing anything other than abstaining from alcohol. In that way, I 100% agree with Trimpy - get sober and then worry about other mental health issues and making things right with others.
I know I've said this repeatedly, but I'll say it again - I've seen AA work for people. It provides community and comradery and that is helpful to many people. Do what works for you and don't try and dissuade people who thrive in the AA environment.
As to Trimpy and RR and the Big Plan et al, I am bothered by the outright hostility toward AA and what Trimpy calls "The Recovery movement". I get the part about the hostility toward the American judicial system forcing people into AA as a part of the legal remedy for DUI's. This is a violation of the separation of church and state because of the religious portion of AA. I got a DUI in 1983 in California and had to enroll in, and pay for, a Level 1 Alcohol Abuse Program. Part of that program was a requirement to attend 6 AA meetings. I was given a card to have the AA group leader sign and return to the Level 1 counsellor. So much for the "anonymous part". I think that government mandated religious recovery is a Constitutional Civil Rights violation - I can see and agree with that hostility. But Trimpy's hostility to the program in general makes little sense. RR would have been better served by being presented as an option and left at that - "hey, you tried and failed at AA - give RR a chance."
Whether you choose to follow AA and the Big Book, or RR and the Big Plan, it is ultimately 100% up to you to remain sober.
If counting days helps you and makes you happy, count the days! If you think counting the days is counterproductive, then don't! Just be sober either way. No need to tell someone who gets joy out of counting days they are somehow wrong for doing it.
To me, it is the height of arrogance to claim your "Plan" cannot fail if you're and adult or whatever, or if you "work the plan", blah, blah blah. Yes - your Plan can fail because it's NOT the plan at all - it's YOU. I personally know several people unaware of RR, and who never even considered AA that just decided it was time to stop, and they stopped. I'm talking lifetime sobriety by simply deciding - 20, 30 40 and one guy 50 years.
That tells me there came a point in every successfully recovered addicts life that they made a decision to be permanently abstinent whether they followed a "Plan" or simply did it on their own.
Like you, Jefferson mentions “hostility.” In his famous quote: pledging “eternal hostility towards all forms of tyranny over the minds of men.” or something like that. The Beast of Booze would like us to continue to submit to ITs cyclical tyranny over our minds by NOT beating it at ITs own game - timelessness. The ultimate form of “hostility” towards the Beast of Booze IS taking the pledge of permanent abstinence. Having done that, I KNOW that I cannot drink ever again. I’m not hostile towards my AV. I simply know I have beaten it completely.
Suffering the rubber tipped slings and arrows of “arrogance”, “it’s NOT the plan at all,” etc. (all AV) is completely inconsequential to me. I will continue to keep offering a clear description of AVRT.
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It is definitely life-changing and even exhilarating to finally find an approach that works for someone, especially if it's such a good fit that it feels effortless. I would like my threads to be a comfortable place posting for everyone though, not only AVRT purists... I don't think it's necessary to tell people who have stayed sober successfully using any program that they are doing it wrong, especially if they like their program, I don't think there is any way to do it wrong if it gets to the goal of permanent sobriety. I also think many people are just comfortable "being in recovery" for a long time or for the rest of their lives, that's what makes it successful for them - why suggest they need to look at it differently or change? I do want all of us to get along in these discussions, there is plenty of room for different views, especially now that Dee has moved this thread to a more neutral subforum .
I agree, John, about hostility not being necessary, what it achieves is turning away people who would otherwise benefit from an approach... it's not very rational IMO. I'm one of those who usually can take what I need/like and not worry about the rest and even presentation style, but many are more sensitive, especially when they still struggle with addiction or are newly sober.
.I agree, John, about hostility not being necessary, what it achieves is turning away people who would otherwise benefit from an approach... it's not very rational IMO. I'm one of those who usually can take what I need/like and not worry about the rest and even presentation style, but many are more sensitive, especially when they still struggle with addiction or are newly sober.
Hangovers Suck!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeastern U.S.
Posts: 176
Another thought occurred to me concerning counting the days of sobriety - tracking the healing of the body and brain from decades of ingesting ethanol - a neurotoxin.
This is of great interest to me to compare how I feel, my cognitive function improvement, and overall health at various points in time. It's impossible to do that if you blindfold yourself from counting your sober days for whatever reason. That's like withholding critical information from your doctor who is trying to help you.
There are ongoing neuroscience studies logging data about people with Alcohol Use Disorders of varying timelines. It matters how much you drank, how long you drank, when you stopped etc.
There is evidence indicating numerous variables in peoples brain chemistry that affects how alcohol effects them neurologically. Everyone is simply not the same - so how can any "one size fits all" recovery program be right for 100% of chronic boozers?
And with all these different people with varying genetics and brain chemistry, what does chronic overuse of alcohol change within their brains? My BIL developed an alcohol related neurological disorder (ataxia) that has caused him difficulty in muscular coordination - he has extreme difficulty standing and walking now - we are the same age. Different brains, different problems created from alcohol abuse. He was a completely different boozer from me, although we were both chronic alcohol abusers. Our alcohol saturated brains functioned differently, and we are healing differently - and he will probably have ataxia the rest of his life.
Ones size fits all simply doesn't. Here a link from the United States Department of Health and Human Services on the topic. Surely this is an appropriate link to share:
ALCOHOL’S DAMAGING EFFECTS ON THE BRAIN
This is of great interest to me to compare how I feel, my cognitive function improvement, and overall health at various points in time. It's impossible to do that if you blindfold yourself from counting your sober days for whatever reason. That's like withholding critical information from your doctor who is trying to help you.
There are ongoing neuroscience studies logging data about people with Alcohol Use Disorders of varying timelines. It matters how much you drank, how long you drank, when you stopped etc.
There is evidence indicating numerous variables in peoples brain chemistry that affects how alcohol effects them neurologically. Everyone is simply not the same - so how can any "one size fits all" recovery program be right for 100% of chronic boozers?
And with all these different people with varying genetics and brain chemistry, what does chronic overuse of alcohol change within their brains? My BIL developed an alcohol related neurological disorder (ataxia) that has caused him difficulty in muscular coordination - he has extreme difficulty standing and walking now - we are the same age. Different brains, different problems created from alcohol abuse. He was a completely different boozer from me, although we were both chronic alcohol abusers. Our alcohol saturated brains functioned differently, and we are healing differently - and he will probably have ataxia the rest of his life.
Ones size fits all simply doesn't. Here a link from the United States Department of Health and Human Services on the topic. Surely this is an appropriate link to share:
ALCOHOL’S DAMAGING EFFECTS ON THE BRAIN
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Join Date: Nov 2018
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I think tracking time was useful at first, but less important as time goes on. After I joined SR, it took me a month or two to nail down my sobriety year, because around year 15 or so, I just quit counting. I know it now, and I'll keep track of it from now on because people ask, even if rarely, "How long have you been sober?" But I've digressed.
I think tracking was useful at first. During the first year, each month was a notice of progress. In addition, my AA group celebrated Birthday Friday on the last Friday each month to celebrate 4 or 5 birthdays that happened during the month. It was festive with cake and coffee, handing out chips, followed by speeches, hugs, and congratulations. It was fun and certainly more meaningful to me than the Academy Awards. And it helped underscore the fact that sobriety is fun by making it even more fun, while not in anyway taking away from the seriousness of the issue. The important thing is that I see no way that it diminished the strength or joy of sobriety.
I did spend some time weighing my thoughts on continued attendance at meetings. I knew I was way past needing meetings, somewhere around 3 or 4 years, probably earlier than that, but my early indoctrination in the group impressed upon me the concept of giving back to the community, which is and should be a personal decision, not a requirement of the program. Eventually, I was not hearing anything new in the meetings. I liked the social aspects, but there was not enough appeal there anymore either.
We talked about this before, but like the rest of us, I toyed with moderation, and did a lot of wishing, and made empty promises to myself for years, never really getting anywhere until I went to my first AA meeting, where an old timer told me that AA didn't endorse moderation, but advocated permanent abstinence. He stated that rather tentatively like it was my choice, and I was so sick of my drinking by that time that I tentatively adopted the idea right on the spot. I was willing to try whatever was necessary. I never took the official pledge, but a week or two later, I knew I was done drinking forever.
I did take precautions to maintain my sobriety, even knowing I wouldn't do it again. If there was any pledge involved, it may have been in promising to take precautions to make sure I would not even be tempted. For example, I sure as heck wasn't going to attend a drunken New Year's Eve bash, or go to a bar to order a hot coffee. I wasn't going to hang out with old drinking buddies, keep liquor in my house, or invite people over for drinks. This was not rocket science maintenance, however. It was more like common sense.
And the last part of your question, "Was quitting enough to solve the problem?" I would say yes, I would have been 100% satisfied with never drinking again, if that's all that came out of it. However, I continued with personal growth, but for the purpose of personal growth only. I was done with my drinking, which to me was a separate issue. This flies in the face of the AA program, but that's OK for me personally. I am not obligated to accept any program in its entirety or to the letter, be it AA, RR, or SMART. If something is useful, I use it. RR resonates the most with me, but I see it as a useful philosophy from which I can borrow and make my own philosophy.
I think tracking was useful at first. During the first year, each month was a notice of progress. In addition, my AA group celebrated Birthday Friday on the last Friday each month to celebrate 4 or 5 birthdays that happened during the month. It was festive with cake and coffee, handing out chips, followed by speeches, hugs, and congratulations. It was fun and certainly more meaningful to me than the Academy Awards. And it helped underscore the fact that sobriety is fun by making it even more fun, while not in anyway taking away from the seriousness of the issue. The important thing is that I see no way that it diminished the strength or joy of sobriety.
I did spend some time weighing my thoughts on continued attendance at meetings. I knew I was way past needing meetings, somewhere around 3 or 4 years, probably earlier than that, but my early indoctrination in the group impressed upon me the concept of giving back to the community, which is and should be a personal decision, not a requirement of the program. Eventually, I was not hearing anything new in the meetings. I liked the social aspects, but there was not enough appeal there anymore either.
Aellyce: The main point is the that I'm interested in the experience of folks who started out with a permanent plan from start or from very early on, then used whatever method to maintain it (or even if you don't use anything because just quitting has been sufficient and solved the problem).
I did take precautions to maintain my sobriety, even knowing I wouldn't do it again. If there was any pledge involved, it may have been in promising to take precautions to make sure I would not even be tempted. For example, I sure as heck wasn't going to attend a drunken New Year's Eve bash, or go to a bar to order a hot coffee. I wasn't going to hang out with old drinking buddies, keep liquor in my house, or invite people over for drinks. This was not rocket science maintenance, however. It was more like common sense.
And the last part of your question, "Was quitting enough to solve the problem?" I would say yes, I would have been 100% satisfied with never drinking again, if that's all that came out of it. However, I continued with personal growth, but for the purpose of personal growth only. I was done with my drinking, which to me was a separate issue. This flies in the face of the AA program, but that's OK for me personally. I am not obligated to accept any program in its entirety or to the letter, be it AA, RR, or SMART. If something is useful, I use it. RR resonates the most with me, but I see it as a useful philosophy from which I can borrow and make my own philosophy.
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Tracking healing in sobriety is a good point, John. When I first took this seriously last November, I was monitoring my blood pressure and heart rate for ~two months, taking it twice (morning and early afternoon) every day. I missed some, but it was an almost complete profile. I started it because I knew that these parameters were a bit elevated due to my drinking, not too much but clearly above normal, so I wanted to see if they would just normalize in sobriety or I would need to talk to a doctor for possible treatment. I didn't want anyone to prescribe meds for me that might then cause more problems, making these too low or inconsistent (why I also didn't see a doctor straight away - okay if someone does not have known health issues or remarkable symptoms, would not recommend otherwise). Indeed, they normalized within a week (my BP is in fact on the low end, but it was also in my youth) and more interestingly, after ~ a month, the reading became more even and consistent across times and days. I tried to do something similar about tracking my mood (made a scoring system for it myself) but that was not too conclusive. Not surprisingly as I haven't really had mood issues since last spring or so other than the usual spikes during binges (which became more frequent just before I quit last fall) and for a few hours following during hangovers, so nothing persistent. What was very clear: a pretty steep increase in my motivation levels (also scored) during my first ~2 sober weeks, which has become so stable that I have experienced before in my life. High levels yes when I was younger and didn't drink much, but I always lived a pretty hectic lifestyle until last year. Not sure if the stable motivation and the lifestyle change (first due to the pandemic, then in sobriety) has a causal correlation, but it definitely appears strong from my data .
Luckily, my relapse was quite brief and only three drinking episodes, it didn't seem to affect any of the above much. What it did 100% though was reinstating my cravings to the absolute start, even worse I would say, so I went through about a month of hardcore struggle with that every darn day that was even more difficult for me than first time (why I also posted about it earlier until I realized talking about it that much actually made it worse due to increasing the preoccupation). Fortunately, by now, that also subsided a lot - this is a major, extra incentive for me to never drink again, no way I want to go through that one more time. It even leads to moments of identity crisis for my otherwise so independent nature, to crave anything so badly.
Experiments tracking human healing in recovery are famously difficult to conduct reliably, given how complex everything is and that people do all sorts of things for their recovery, hard to compare people with each-other very well (even without considering the complexity of already inherent to basal biology. Unless you can have an enormous sample size, which is very expensive for controlled experiments. This is why researchers try to model similar things in animals, but those of course cannot report nuances, especially in emotional states, and everything is based on theoretical models and interpretations done by the human explorers so, again, not super accurate and the experiments often have poor reproducibility rates. It gets a bit easier when we monitor exact physiological functions and biochemical processes (vs. behavior), but those are also subject to lots of other environmental influences... so it's a challenging area of science.
This is a very important element of assessing the question, I think. It seemed very clear for you. It was also where my original dilemma also came from, as I felt that thinking much about technically accurate sober time since my relapse was probably not very constructive for me, because it brought up frustrations and prompted me to beat up myself for picking up and failing "my plan". But, as I said earlier, I am sure this will fade with time, I'm doing it quite differently now... in fact it's already quite faded especially now that I don't struggle with those craving monsters so much every day.
As for using recovery methods - I've stated many times on various forums that I'm not a faithful follower of anything either. I think it's just my general personality, I am this way with everything. Like to be informed, get useful existing tools and philosophies that resonate, hear others' advice, but have never followed any doctrine or world view even near completely and want to test/find my "truth" with everything. Part of the reason the worst moments of my addiction felt so desperate was because I did have moments of quazi-powerlessness (usually during the worst hangovers), when I felt I should probably give up my autonomy, accept that I failed at fixing this, and should follow others' prescriptions to a tee. I tried a bit with SMART, because that program clicked with me the best and there was nothing I would straight reject or be unable to do in it... but soon I started making my own version of even that, kept some tools and didn't care about others at all. I really think it has a lot with individual personality if someone likes to follow established programs and authorities quite faithfully, or do it entirely on their own...and everything in between. I think any version of it is great and the only valid measure of the approach is if it works for the individual or not. We can of course argue about how to measure such success, especially for someone like me, who has not had too much stable sober time yet and my confidence tends to be driven here by... well, general confidence I usually have in my own mind for most things. In fact, the interest I sometimes had in possibly working the 12 steps was to maybe develop more humility, which (along with occasional arrogance) has been an issue for me since childhood, I mostly just don't care. I don't know what would ever force me to surrender more, it probably would have to get to instant life-or-death level or something. Well, here is an area for personal growth to work on for me, in sobriety.
But for people who have achieved consecutive years of satisfying, happy sobriety - who can argue with the fact they are doing it right? Of course, that sort of rightness also generates passion for whatever the method is and a desire to spread the word, perhaps even aggressively - I completely get how that may work.
.Luckily, my relapse was quite brief and only three drinking episodes, it didn't seem to affect any of the above much. What it did 100% though was reinstating my cravings to the absolute start, even worse I would say, so I went through about a month of hardcore struggle with that every darn day that was even more difficult for me than first time (why I also posted about it earlier until I realized talking about it that much actually made it worse due to increasing the preoccupation). Fortunately, by now, that also subsided a lot - this is a major, extra incentive for me to never drink again, no way I want to go through that one more time. It even leads to moments of identity crisis for my otherwise so independent nature, to crave anything so badly.
Experiments tracking human healing in recovery are famously difficult to conduct reliably, given how complex everything is and that people do all sorts of things for their recovery, hard to compare people with each-other very well (even without considering the complexity of already inherent to basal biology. Unless you can have an enormous sample size, which is very expensive for controlled experiments. This is why researchers try to model similar things in animals, but those of course cannot report nuances, especially in emotional states, and everything is based on theoretical models and interpretations done by the human explorers so, again, not super accurate and the experiments often have poor reproducibility rates. It gets a bit easier when we monitor exact physiological functions and biochemical processes (vs. behavior), but those are also subject to lots of other environmental influences... so it's a challenging area of science.
Originally Posted by DriGuy
The important thing is that I see no way that it diminished the strength or joy of sobriety.
As for using recovery methods - I've stated many times on various forums that I'm not a faithful follower of anything either. I think it's just my general personality, I am this way with everything. Like to be informed, get useful existing tools and philosophies that resonate, hear others' advice, but have never followed any doctrine or world view even near completely and want to test/find my "truth" with everything. Part of the reason the worst moments of my addiction felt so desperate was because I did have moments of quazi-powerlessness (usually during the worst hangovers), when I felt I should probably give up my autonomy, accept that I failed at fixing this, and should follow others' prescriptions to a tee. I tried a bit with SMART, because that program clicked with me the best and there was nothing I would straight reject or be unable to do in it... but soon I started making my own version of even that, kept some tools and didn't care about others at all. I really think it has a lot with individual personality if someone likes to follow established programs and authorities quite faithfully, or do it entirely on their own...and everything in between. I think any version of it is great and the only valid measure of the approach is if it works for the individual or not. We can of course argue about how to measure such success, especially for someone like me, who has not had too much stable sober time yet and my confidence tends to be driven here by... well, general confidence I usually have in my own mind for most things. In fact, the interest I sometimes had in possibly working the 12 steps was to maybe develop more humility, which (along with occasional arrogance) has been an issue for me since childhood, I mostly just don't care
. I don't know what would ever force me to surrender more, it probably would have to get to instant life-or-death level or something. Well, here is an area for personal growth to work on for me, in sobriety.But for people who have achieved consecutive years of satisfying, happy sobriety - who can argue with the fact they are doing it right? Of course, that sort of rightness also generates passion for whatever the method is and a desire to spread the word, perhaps even aggressively - I completely get how that may work.
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I have another question to those of you who commented on my previous AV discussion (of course anyone else who cares to respond as well). Can't go back to that thread because I had it closed, and don't want to start a similar discussion just for the sake of it again, so will ask here. The idea that cravings/AV activity lessens when we make a very confident, deeply felt Big Plan to never drink again. Are you guys sure that is the order of any possible causality: first comes the plan and that diminishes the drinking thoughts and urges as a consequence? Or perhaps the other way around: once the worst part of the cravings subsides, that's when we feel that commitment inside much more stably and without doubt?
Asking because I'm finally at a stage where I don't have those insane cravings every day that make me want to climb the walls... and now I relate much more to what you guys said, including that you internally felt the difference quite clearly. I know this (the order) would be very hard (maybe impossible) to prove for sure, but am curious at to what people think. I think it's a quite important question regarding where the primary focus should be very early on. I personally didn't do very well trying to analyze my commitment and make it stronger with pure mental gymnastics, in the end just focused on not even getting close to any alcohol, no matter what it took (often distraction activities) and decided not to care at all what was going on in my head. Not that not so much of that battle is going on (it took ~a month for me again), it's much easier to feel the strength and confidence of the commitment that I had already made a month ago.
Asking because I'm finally at a stage where I don't have those insane cravings every day that make me want to climb the walls... and now I relate much more to what you guys said, including that you internally felt the difference quite clearly. I know this (the order) would be very hard (maybe impossible) to prove for sure, but am curious at to what people think. I think it's a quite important question regarding where the primary focus should be very early on. I personally didn't do very well trying to analyze my commitment and make it stronger with pure mental gymnastics, in the end just focused on not even getting close to any alcohol, no matter what it took (often distraction activities) and decided not to care at all what was going on in my head. Not that not so much of that battle is going on (it took ~a month for me again), it's much easier to feel the strength and confidence of the commitment that I had already made a month ago.
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Originally Posted by Aellyce
The idea that cravings/AV activity lessens when we make a very confident, deeply felt Big Plan to never drink again. Are you guys sure that is the order of any possible causality: first comes the plan and that diminishes the drinking thoughts and urges as a consequence? Or perhaps the other way around: once the worst part of the cravings subsides, that's when we feel that commitment inside much more stably and without doubt?
I think it was all three:
1. the "separate cause" being intense motivation to quit, because I was so sick of my drinking.
2. the "commitment" because I had already made a tentative commitment to quitting for good.
3. the "diminished cravings" as an unexpected joy and realization that cravings were not a life long misery.
Lets not ignore the importance of #2, tentative commitment. That was made a week before my final commitment, in the context of never having seriously considered quitting for good before. This was entirely new to me, but I trusted the wisdom, if not my ability, in a flash of insight. I was willing to try, no more, no less, but I was serious about my willingness to try. This may have helped to diminish the cravings sooner, but in talking to others, the reduced cravings seemed to be a given during early abstinence, regardless of any long term commitment, tentative or final. Of course, I can't be sure. I can report the events with accuracy, while cause and effect is more sketchy.
However, I believe that #3, recognizing my newly manageable cravings probably played a role in my final commitment/knowledge. Knowing that I could confidently navigate cravings provided the knowledge that I would never have to drink again. And it allowed me to know that I could laugh off my AV when that part showed up later.
One thing that seems most important in my experience is that a commitment or pledge (whatever you want to call it), did not cause a sudden loss of cravings or an suddenly inactive AV. I doubt that Trimpey posits that as an ultimate truth, and if he does, I would ignore it, because is not critical for deeply satisfying recovery and long term contentment. And that is our common goal, not the program you choose to get there. Having said that, commitment is always important to a plan. Lack of commitment is why I went for so many years worried about my drinking but not doing anything about it. I didn't know what to do, and I wasn't committed to anything. I just wished for different results from my drinking.
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Thanks DriGuy. Yes, of course any of this is rather impossible to prove and there are so many subjective factors (not only perception) at play, the whole speculation is not much more useful than playing with intellectual curiosity. I just do the latter also because it's always a good distraction for me, including it's pleasurable nature (for me).
You were definitely one of those members who suggested that the AV activity lessened with certainty and firm commitment, when I complained about my urges and asked how to make them less intense. I don't recall Trimpey explicitly saying the same (might be wrong, I'm not one who has the whole book precisely in my mind). But indirectly, making the Big Plan so central and crucial, it kinda implies something similar given that we usually relapse because we desire the effects of alcohol (=craving and the AV activity to satisfy it), don't we? I wonder though if you would have seen and speculated about all this in the same way much closer to your quit date - yet another thing we will never be able to test now (fortunately for you). Because perceptions and memories change with time, especially with such a long time you've had since your quit. Don't think I am alone in often finding that my analyses become more realistic as a process advances, although (again) I won't propose that we can truly talk about accuracy with all this. One thing I am sure of though: those cravings do cloud clarity of perception and insight, not even a little. Only one reason I am always so interested in hearing the experience of people who have been sober for a long time and are far removed from those early states, although perhaps too long time makes the memories fuzzier as well and projections into them easier.
You were definitely one of those members who suggested that the AV activity lessened with certainty and firm commitment, when I complained about my urges and asked how to make them less intense. I don't recall Trimpey explicitly saying the same (might be wrong, I'm not one who has the whole book precisely in my mind). But indirectly, making the Big Plan so central and crucial, it kinda implies something similar given that we usually relapse because we desire the effects of alcohol (=craving and the AV activity to satisfy it), don't we? I wonder though if you would have seen and speculated about all this in the same way much closer to your quit date - yet another thing we will never be able to test now (fortunately for you). Because perceptions and memories change with time, especially with such a long time you've had since your quit. Don't think I am alone in often finding that my analyses become more realistic as a process advances, although (again) I won't propose that we can truly talk about accuracy with all this. One thing I am sure of though: those cravings do cloud clarity of perception and insight, not even a little. Only one reason I am always so interested in hearing the experience of people who have been sober for a long time and are far removed from those early states, although perhaps too long time makes the memories fuzzier as well and projections into them easier.
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Are you guys sure that is the order of any possible causality: first comes the plan and that diminishes the drinking thoughts and urges as a consequence? Or perhaps the other way around: once the worst part of the cravings subsides, that's when we feel that commitment inside much more stably and without doubt?
For me I remember having little or no confidence in my ability to stay sober initially, but that grew in time.
I knew right from the off I had no real choice but to stay sober tho...I really scared myself with my last detox so cravings, regardless of magnitude, were simply not enough to break through my fear and get me to drink again.
In pretty quick time the transitory fear morphed into a permanent lasting acceptance that I’d adopted a new lifestyle and there was no going back from that.
D
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