Originally Posted by JustJohn

I believe the same. Regardless of the "system" people choose, it is ultimately a decision to never drink again.

Here's what I have personal experience with:

I've been to AA, and it helped at first, until I got to the sponsor and 12 steps part. At the time I was working a full time job in the evenings, and operating a small business venture during the day. The "work" my sponsor assigned me was just too much. I was already putting in 80 hour weeks and I just did not have the time or desire to do the 12 steps, and did not (and still do not) see the relevance of doing anything other than abstaining from alcohol. In that way, I 100% agree with Trimpy - get sober and then worry about other mental health issues and making things right with others.

I know I've said this repeatedly, but I'll say it again - I've seen AA work for people. It provides community and comradery and that is helpful to many people. Do what works for you and don't try and dissuade people who thrive in the AA environment.

As to Trimpy and RR and the Big Plan et al, I am bothered by the outright hostility toward AA and what Trimpy calls "The Recovery movement". I get the part about the hostility toward the American judicial system forcing people into AA as a part of the legal remedy for DUI's. This is a violation of the separation of church and state because of the religious portion of AA. I got a DUI in 1983 in California and had to enroll in, and pay for, a Level 1 Alcohol Abuse Program. Part of that program was a requirement to attend 6 AA meetings. I was given a card to have the AA group leader sign and return to the Level 1 counsellor. So much for the "anonymous part". I think that government mandated religious recovery is a Constitutional Civil Rights violation - I can see and agree with that hostility. But Trimpy's hostility to the program in general makes little sense. RR would have been better served by being presented as an option and left at that - "hey, you tried and failed at AA - give RR a chance."

Whether you choose to follow AA and the Big Book, or RR and the Big Plan, it is ultimately 100% up to you to remain sober.

If counting days helps you and makes you happy, count the days! If you think counting the days is counterproductive, then don't! Just be sober either way. No need to tell someone who gets joy out of counting days they are somehow wrong for doing it.

To me, it is the height of arrogance to claim your "Plan" cannot fail if you're and adult or whatever, or if you "work the plan", blah, blah blah. Yes - your Plan can fail because it's NOT the plan at all - it's YOU. I personally know several people unaware of RR, and who never even considered AA that just decided it was time to stop, and they stopped. I'm talking lifetime sobriety by simply deciding - 20, 30 40 and one guy 50 years.

That tells me there came a point in every successfully recovered addicts life that they made a decision to be permanently abstinent whether they followed a "Plan" or simply did it on their own.