Aellyce

I wanted to find the best place for this thread and it's not 100% ideal here as I'm interested in any permanent abstinence-based recovery, not only using RR/AVRT... The main point is the that I'm interested in the experience of folks who started out with a permanent plan from start or from very early on, then used whatever method to maintain it (or even if you don't use anything because just quitting has been sufficient and solved the problem).

Has tracking your sober time been useful for you in any form? To reinforce your pledge/commitment, to deal with the AV more effectively, anything else? Or has thinking about the time passed sober, using apps to trace it, reporting your sober time to your community, celebrating etc possibly got in the way in some negative form? Do you even find the whole concept of "early sobriety" helpful? Asking because I'm a bit ambivalent about this and it may well just be a typical AV maneuver to even contemplate this, although "early" is not necessarily irrelevant in the context of "forever" as it still had a start. It's easy to come up with arguments both pro and con for all this for me and would like to see if others had similar dilemmas. I personally find the "early sobriety" thing especially annoying for my case given that I've been around recovery for so long, but perhaps it's just an emotional reaction, that I'm still upset why I didn't make it stick earlier. On the other hand, some of the challenges people discuss in the "early" context definitely apply to me, especially dealing with still quite frequent drinking urges/AV... but people with decades also still deal with some in most cases. I really can't decide how it would be the most helpful to look at it, but I know I can quite easily switch my mind consciously to consider any of the time passed and stages or not at all, I could just decide on one and stick with it, much like I decided to never drink again and never change my mind.

I know what RR says about these things, here I would like to hear direct personal experiences. Again, whatever method you use(d). Thanks in advance.

shakeel

interesting topic. I have been asking the same questions myself. see what anyone has to share on this.

JustJohn

I installed a Sobriety counter on my taskbar mainly because I forget how long it's been (cerebral flutters) and keeps me from having to pull up a calendar and count. But personally I like it and find it helpful.

I don't buy in 100% into any sobriety methodology because I've seen people fail using all of them. There are effective parts, nonsensical parts and outright absurdity in all of them when you drill down deep into them.

Anytime anyone becomes a zealot in any philosophy or methodology, they turn it into an annoyance and drive people away.

Ultimately, each individual is responsible for their own sobriety. It is up to each of us to seek out what works and be about it. That's what makes SR such a great resource - lots of people here sharing their experiences, successes, and failures for all of us to learn from and find a way to grow stronger in our sobriety.

Aellyce

So how do you find it helpful exactly, JustJohn? That's exactly what I would like to hear.

I completely agree with everything else in your post, I look at it in the same way. Part of the reason I also emphasize I'm interested in feedback from anyone, regardless of their approaches of choice. The only solid element I have in my own recovery now is never drinking again, ever, no matter what - so we can say the Big Plan of RR. How I manage the challenges of that varies and one advantage of studying both addiction and recovery for so long is that I'm quite familiar with pretty much everything out there theoretically at least, so it's easy to find, mix, match and make my own program, even intuitively assess what new idea might be compatible with me or not. But some things I'm not so sure about and can see multiple sides, like this sober time tracking thing.

JustJohn

It represents progress to me - like an ever-changing mile post on a journey. There's no deeper meaning there, other than I find it to be a useful tool for marking time. I like to see progress, and the sobriety counter is a free, easy way to do it.

GerandTwine

In my mind, early AVRT is pre-Big Plan, and following that the recovery is over and becomes a timeless unchanging thought experience with absolutely no physical movements or actions required. AV -> R; AV -> R; AV -> R. Each cycle lasting such a short time that one need not even break stride.

In my experience, it was more senseless to “count time” in early recovery than it was at any time later on. Later on, it was a simple oddity, or curiosity, basically meaningless. What was more interesting was how I went through the good grief over the loss of the drunken me, and then the loss of any memory of the sensation of being under the influence of alcohol.

The only reason I counted time early on was to humor people around me in the recovery groups I had been coerced by the judicial system into attending (DUI). I knew drinking was over for me and dragging up the how many one day-at-a-times that people wanted to have me account for seemed like rubbing it in that I made it so far on a blind journey which had no idea whether I’d drink tomorrow.

I understood and accepted the lack of trust from others, also as I saw so many people cycle in and out of the groups. The vast majority didn’t seem to trust their own futures re drinking.

Anecdotally, Algorithm, an almost perfectly accurate AVRT poster here in the past, started a thread congratulating Soberlicioius on her 10 years of “permanent” abstinence right here on SR.

Dee74

It was useful for me in the beginning as tangible proof of change, then after about 3 months I knew this was a lifelong permanent change for me. I get reminded of anniversaries here, but I don't count sober days anymore than I do my 'life' days.

D
​​​​​​​

Dee74

As a sidebar, I miss Algorithm.

I know they had some health issues.
I hope they're doing ok
.
D

msl999

Here is one of my quotes from another thread about counting days:
I know that I was abstinent on July 4th, 2017 (watched fireworks sober) so I use the 4th as my personal “Independence Day”

Aellyce

Thanks guys for more feedback! I do like to experience progress and have successful endeavors, this is exactly part of why I don't feel very helpful right now to track the time much, because especially the relapse I had irritates that sense, even if it is the reality. I think this will fade later. But I think we can indeed be creative with how we remember that reality, it's definitely a choice, much like never drinking again.

Right now, one way of looking at it that I like is remembering the context and time period when I got serious about my recovery, because it also has so many other meaningful elements. Ironically for the big picture and the world, 2020 ended up being one of my best years so far, because I could naturally fall into some of the most exciting changes in my life and then continue working on them this year. I made dramatic changes and sort of reinvented myself a few times before in various ways, but this is the most recent one, so the most vivid and exciting. In this context, it feels great to remember that I also got sober during this time, that my addiction recovery is a big part of all this. I think I'll always recall this period very fondly later in my life and remembering that I embarked on this journey in the fall of 2020 and then made it final in the spring of 2021 is very inspiring for me, so I think that's what I will focus on. Perhaps the actual passage of time will become meaningful later, again in the context of more improvement and growth that would not have been possible without getting sober.

I never interacted with Algorithm, their contributions here were during a time when I took a break from SR, but read some of the post later with interest. I also hope s/he is doing well.

slayingthedrago

I have attempted sobriety many times in the past 7 years. Some stretches were 6 months, some were 2 months and a few in-between. I counted days proudly during all attempts. I'm back here now, after devouring RR and I do "get" the no need to count days anymore aspect of RR. If it is permanent, then there is no need to "white-knuckle" another day and put a notch in the belt. When I say devour, I mean read cover to cover 4x in the past month. It is the most eye-opening, impressive, life-changing concept/book/idea I have ever read. I'm not sure it's for everyone, but if it is, it has opened up enormous possibilities for the remainder of my days. Sorry, if I'm off-topic a bit- just wanted to weigh in with some fellow AVRT enthusiasts.

Fusion

I miss them too, D. Does anyone on SR know how Algorithm is faring? There's such a volume of legacy input from Algorithm on SR, in their quest to help us, that landed on here, whilst struggling.

Aellyce

Yes, I also like the RR book a lot - the method is very uncomplicated (unlike many other programs) and straightforward, and I enjoyed the discussion on the larger social and medical contexts as well. It was written quite a while ago and a lot still applies, even though the palette of recovery methods/programs available to us now is much larger. Interestingly, I read it many years ago first and somehow it did not speak to me much at the time - I think I was just not ready to quit back then. I very much like SMART as well - their goal is also permanent abstinence, it's less focused overall, but the tools are very practical, easy to use and span a large spectrum of what people consider important for self-awareness, recovery and general life improvement. You also don't need to use all of it, can cherry pick, and it's still useful. But definitely nothing beats RR in terms of simplicity and elegance if someone gets the hang of it and is able to apply and not worry about a zillion other things (like many people in recovery do). I can do that, just found that I could use some more guidance in the areas of Motivation and Coping with Urges initially - those are the main sections of SMART that I integrated in my own recovery. They describe stages of recovery but also kind of discourage reporting day counts and other sober time at meetings and even any declaration of being an alcoholic, addict etc, but emphasize freedom in whatever works for everyone. Very open-minded and accepting. But I can be too open-minded sometimes and my AV hijacked that big time, that was part of the reason I got back into RR recently, to make clean decisions and not overthink - some people suggested these to me on my threads where I confessed drinking, and taking it simple was the best advice ever, even if I still use a variety of tools and adjust them for myself.

It's interesting how some of us start out trying to digest and explore the whole universe of what's considered recovery (we could also say that's the AV's influence), and in the end succeed with the simplest, including not identifying with "being in recovery" for a long time. I'm generally a very goal-oriented person in my life, so wading through all this has been a bit weird..., but that's what addiction does, it complicates everything and often our best features/abilities suffer the most.

GerandTwine

Hi Tatsy,

I know nothing more about Algorithm than what he’s posted here publicly. I choose to spend minimal time in the Private Messaging world on SR. I always presume that people are doing what they want here and IRL, Including struggling with ambivalence over a chemical dependency if that’s where they are.

Speaking of which, I haven’t heard much on how you are faring so far here a third of the way through 2021.

GT

Aellyce

There have been quite a few highly prolific, inspired and intense AVRT enthusiast contributors in the Secular section of SR over the years. They post a lot and engage in discussion deeply for a while (sometimes months, something a couple years) then disappear. Some show up every now and then but become more enigmatic about the state of their recovery.

I often wonder what this means - do most/many of these members just move on, as it is "supposed to" happen with this approach? Or disappear / become more low-key because they could not keep their Big Plan and would feel too exposed and ashamed coming back to admit it didn't quite work out as intended, even just say they needed to change the approach? Probably a mix of these, it would be hard to ever find out true success rate I guess, even how to measure the outcome of the "forever" pledge with any accuracy. Is anyone aware of any literature on this, even from Trimpey's older follow-up studies, that is more detailed than what's mentioned in the main RR book?

I would not let my own commitment and sobriety influenced by any such statistic but it's hard not to wonder just out of curiosity...

slayingthedrago

that is a great question Aellyce. I'd be curious about that as well. I know for me, and I can only speak for myself of course, I now view SR differently than I did a few months ago. I still believe strongly in it- I know it helps many people, but it will always come down to action or my inaction in the end. I do think that if RR/AVRT truly "takes", than there isn't a need to lurk or post or hang around too much. BUT, we all need connection and connecting with those with similar struggles is comforting in a way, at least for me.

This is all very new for me quite honestly and I don't want to get overly confident despite the fact that I am feeling very confident in abstinence. I feel a switch has been flipped for me and I am feeling quite on top of the world tbh.


It does seem that RR/Trimpey has kind of fallen off the map. Even the wiki page puts it all in the past tense. There is a page in the book that says something to the effect of...."even if you are the first in the world to make this work, it diminishes nothing and you are just the first". (paraphrasing broadly here...). That makes sense to me too...if it works or "clicks" for us, then it doesn't matter who else has succeeded or what the success % is.

Fusion

Hi GT, I'm faring well. Thanks for asking.

Hi slayingthedrago, I hope that Jack Trimpey has passed the baton to someone else, should he no longer be able to carry the message. I asked in Secular Connections, what had happened to the RR/AVRT website, currently displayed as 'under construction', and have received no enlightenment so far. I hope Jack is OK.

msl999

There is another group we often don’t think about, the lurkers who got what they needed and never joined SR.

I was such a person. I lurked for years while searching for a method that worked. Of course my AV told me to ignore AVRT, but eventually I decided to give it a go. I read through the 6-part thread and the book. After I made my Big Plan I was not going to join, but I saw that the posting in the Secular section was getting pretty thin. I had almost 2 years at the time, so I decided to join SR to bear witness to people like me; people who read the forum and get what they need and move on, and for those who wonder if they can do it alone, without meetings or forums. I wanted them to know it is indeed possible to achieve permanent abstinence independently.

Alas, most of the SR forums have gone private since that time, but thankfully, the Secular forums have remained public (thanks SR!!!). This means that when people check SR out, they will be able to read our success stories and maybe give this AVRT thing a shot.

I don’t know how long I’ll hang around here, but rest assured that I’ll never drink again and never change my mind, whether or not I post on SR.

Aellyce

I have always been at least somewhat ambivalent about whether hanging out on SR helps my recovery or not (I misused the community aspect for a long time), but one thing is true without doubt: the information available here, all in one place, is unique and priceless. And it's great that one doesn't have to be a member to access a lot of it even passively.

My own motives for being here for so long are a bit more complex than just the problem I had with alcohol, a large part is because my career has been in mental health for >10 years and I am interested in many aspects of it. This is also why I enjoyed Trimpey's discussion on the broader context in the RR book, because I am in somewhat similar shoes in a different era that still has many flaws, and believe that being so embedded in the mental health industry has both helped and hindered my progress with resolving my own addiction. I still clearly remember why I signed up in the first place in 2010: that was when I just moved into a new field of research involving addiction and I wanted to find places to see the larger human reality as well, in addition to my own small world and the studies we run in labs. Of course I did not say this at start . So it remains interesting to me for the same reason, but sometimes it can also be too much of a distraction. I'm fine now since I'm on an extended vacation, but will need to cut back again later when I get back to working full-time. This is not only about SR - I've been on many forums (including others related to mental health and very different ones) over the years and like seeing the diversity, enjoy the discussion and interacting with a variety of people I would never meet (would never even want to) face-to-face, but the virtual world can be a little addictive on its own for my introverted nature and I think I'm not alone with this. I was upset about this many times, because my goal was abstinence and not harm reduction (replacing it with another, less destructive habit). But I'm trying to accept we are just wired to have something..., and reading/talking about stuff that interests me won't harm me if I don't drink and exercise some discipline about my time.

I absolutely believe that most people who resolve an addiction (and many other mental health issues) do it on their own, as the RR book also claims. When I was much younger, I also recovered from a pretty serious eating disorder on my own (clearly there must be some predisposition there, had the ED in my teens and beat it by mid-20s) - at the time, I knew nothing about mental health, didn't even read up on it much, but figured it out on my own intuitively and via trial and error, and it never came back. Looking back, I think what I did with the eating disorder was very AVRT-like in some aspects, plus learning that deprivation leads to desire for destructive excess, so creating a fulfilling, interesting life will help to deter that sort of AV as well. Addictive substances and behavioral inclinations are as old as humanity. These days it's much easier to get information, and that definitely helps a lot since we don't need to reinvent the wheel from scratch. As for the recovery community, I think it varies a lot how much and in which format people need that. Many obviously don't need it at all. I tend to think that I more like it than need, but it would be hard to test now.

Oh my, now I'm turning my thread into the woods again with my rambling habit, so will stop here .

Aellyce

To the original topic, I found these old discussions on the question of sobriety dates, tracking time, anniversaries etc. Not exactly about the question of whether "early recovery" makes sense, but the views are interesting. Starts at ~post #208.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rt-1-a-11.html (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion-Part 1)