Quality v. quantity...
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Redmayne 
Hi thanks for that, nothing's changed then, which explains why I stopped attending them eight years ago...done on the basis that at some, if they didn't read out the AA Preamble at the start of the meeting, you wouldn't even know you were at an AA meeting...and/or when it became apparent that there were people present whose problems were nothing to do with alcohol, alcoholism or recovery and everything to do with the disturbed state of their mental health....
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
Great!
Great, I'm genuinely pleased for you not east as I'm well aware that the quality of AA meetings, remembering that each group is independent and self supporting, vary so much...
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Welp ~
I share this fabulous Birthday with Stevie Wonder - with me appropriately popping into this World on Friday the 13th - so the Song Title below kinda fits, eh?
'Tis true that my Recovery Style was more along the lines of the Bob Newhart Parody linked below. WAY back when, one of several joke Tee Shirt ideas I came up with was gonna say:
'Making The Simple, Difficult'
It was intended to be a playful reference to those who favor complexity. I got free Training in Japan on how to solve Problems doing exactly the opposite: looking at an Issue in new ways, and finding a simple way forward.
In terms of Recovery Quality - the OP question - I couldn't beat my current Life with a Stick! Carry on!
- 'Superstition' ~ Stevie Wonder ~ Live -
- 'Stop It' ~ Bob Newhart -
.
I share this fabulous Birthday with Stevie Wonder - with me appropriately popping into this World on Friday the 13th - so the Song Title below kinda fits, eh?
'Tis true that my Recovery Style was more along the lines of the Bob Newhart Parody linked below. WAY back when, one of several joke Tee Shirt ideas I came up with was gonna say:
'Making The Simple, Difficult'
It was intended to be a playful reference to those who favor complexity. I got free Training in Japan on how to solve Problems doing exactly the opposite: looking at an Issue in new ways, and finding a simple way forward.
In terms of Recovery Quality - the OP question - I couldn't beat my current Life with a Stick! Carry on!
- 'Superstition' ~ Stevie Wonder ~ Live -
- 'Stop It' ~ Bob Newhart -
.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
In terms of Recovery Quality - the OP question - I couldn't beat my current Life with a Stick!
Only difference is, I had to go around and touch all the bases first. You got the credit the instant you stepped up to the plate. Funny how addiction works like that. Some stop in time while others go over the edge.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
As this thread...
Cognitive thinking (truth and reason), obviously lacking in at least one individual's attempts to derail it, who obviously doesn't have that ability,tells me, this thread which I started. Has now run its course , with grateful thanks to all the others who did contribute by way of constructive comment or criticism, ...
It's time to apply one of my favourite Buddhist sayings...
'Anything (including anyone) that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama's ,'Little Book of Buddhist Wisdom,'
See ya...
It's time to apply one of my favourite Buddhist sayings...
'Anything (including anyone) that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama's ,'Little Book of Buddhist Wisdom,'
See ya...
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Redmayne
It's time to apply one of my favourite Buddhist sayings...
'Anything (including anyone) that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama's ,'Little Book of Buddhist Wisdom,'
'Anything (including anyone) that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned,' - the Dalai Lama's ,'Little Book of Buddhist Wisdom,'
(Kalama Sutta)
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Here is the quote without your spin:
"Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned. However, if something contradicts logic but not experience, we should rely on experience rather than logic when such experience also corresponds to what the wise have to say."
(Kalama Sutta)
"Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned. However, if something contradicts logic but not experience, we should rely on experience rather than logic when such experience also corresponds to what the wise have to say."
(Kalama Sutta)
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Despite all the back 'n forth that's been going on here, or maybe because of it, I think I'll address my comments to the Original Post................:
So, Quality vs Quantity........it would appear, Red, that you belong to the 'quality' school of thought. As a friend of mine has often reminded me, it takes some quantity to achieve some quality (it ain't manna from heaven). Let's also remember that the term 'quality' is a very subjective term. What's quality recovery/sobriety to one person, may be crap to another person.
When I was new to recovery, I wasn't looking for quality of any kind; I just wanted to learn how to quit and say quit. I know some folks use the story of 'the drunken horse thief.' If all one does is remove the alcohol, one is still left with a horse thief, albeit, a sober one. Well, that sounded good to me, and still does.
When new, I had hope, but I wanted the experience and strength of others. Both of these qualities come with time (quantity). So, yes, I'm probably more apt to truly listen to a person with 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 30 years, or 40-45 years over a person who has 'a little time,' but it's really quality time according to some.
You have 7 years, Red, so this doesn't really apply to you, however, I still remember a group of folks, again when I was new in recovery, who would seemingly march around chanting, "It's quality, not quantity that counts; It's quality, not quantity that counts; It's quality, not quantity that counts." The funny thing is, none of those folks seemed to be able to accumulate much in the way of any quantity, so I guess they counted on the only thing that they could...........: quality, by their definition.
For me, I love quality (what I perceive a quality), but I prefer it in someone who has some quantity, not someone fresh off the boat. So I guess I'm a quality quantity (or would that be quantity quality) type of gal............................
(o:
NoelleR
Originally Posted by Redmayne
To me and I know many others,quality is something you can't define but you know it when you see it...
In recovery, I've always felt that it's the quality of it, more than the quantity or longevity, that's often apparent in both others and myself, that is the most heartwarming and sets an example to others...
The good thing about quality in anyone or anything is that properly nurtured and cherished, it only improves with age. Left to its own devices or abused it often returns to less than its original form..
An obvious test of this is provided here on SRC, where to the discerning reader, you can tell by the words used in the various posts, those who really know what they're talking about on the specific subject relative to the forum or thread. Not least, despite in their sobriety date, if any (?) they provide in sharing their experience, strength and hope. They provide constructive comment or criticism...anything lacking this is similar to the Buddhist saying,'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned'. Quality, like I hope for all in recovery, doesn't have any of these qualities...
In recovery, I've always felt that it's the quality of it, more than the quantity or longevity, that's often apparent in both others and myself, that is the most heartwarming and sets an example to others...
The good thing about quality in anyone or anything is that properly nurtured and cherished, it only improves with age. Left to its own devices or abused it often returns to less than its original form..
An obvious test of this is provided here on SRC, where to the discerning reader, you can tell by the words used in the various posts, those who really know what they're talking about on the specific subject relative to the forum or thread. Not least, despite in their sobriety date, if any (?) they provide in sharing their experience, strength and hope. They provide constructive comment or criticism...anything lacking this is similar to the Buddhist saying,'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned'. Quality, like I hope for all in recovery, doesn't have any of these qualities...
When I was new to recovery, I wasn't looking for quality of any kind; I just wanted to learn how to quit and say quit. I know some folks use the story of 'the drunken horse thief.' If all one does is remove the alcohol, one is still left with a horse thief, albeit, a sober one. Well, that sounded good to me, and still does.
When new, I had hope, but I wanted the experience and strength of others. Both of these qualities come with time (quantity). So, yes, I'm probably more apt to truly listen to a person with 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 30 years, or 40-45 years over a person who has 'a little time,' but it's really quality time according to some.
You have 7 years, Red, so this doesn't really apply to you, however, I still remember a group of folks, again when I was new in recovery, who would seemingly march around chanting, "It's quality, not quantity that counts; It's quality, not quantity that counts; It's quality, not quantity that counts." The funny thing is, none of those folks seemed to be able to accumulate much in the way of any quantity, so I guess they counted on the only thing that they could...........: quality, by their definition.
For me, I love quality (what I perceive a quality), but I prefer it in someone who has some quantity, not someone fresh off the boat. So I guess I'm a quality quantity (or would that be quantity quality) type of gal............................
(o:
NoelleR
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by NoelleR
As a friend of mine has often reminded me, it takes some quantity to achieve some quality (it ain't manna from heaven). Let's also remember that the term 'quality' is a very subjective term. What's quality recovery/sobriety to one person, may be crap to another person.
However, I have watched some people get better fast and watched others stay restless, irritable and discontented for decades. At around 2 years I asked a truly good-oldtimer why that was?
His response was: "It ain't by accident. Pay attention to what people "do" rather than what people "say", and you will see that action speaks louder than words".
Sure enough, now I see it every time. Those that "act" on suggestions get well. Those that just give lip-service to suggestions don't. It's that simple.
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
You still here?
You still here? All on your own, the rest of us have all gone home, haven't you realized that yet?
You know Einstein said the definition of insanity is when you keep doing the same thing over and over again with same result.
Which is exactly what you're doing now, you might want to think about that, it's not a good sign in recovery.....now go and sit on the naughty stair...and stop being silly.
You know Einstein said the definition of insanity is when you keep doing the same thing over and over again with same result.
Which is exactly what you're doing now, you might want to think about that, it's not a good sign in recovery.....now go and sit on the naughty stair...and stop being silly.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Redmayne
You still here? All on your own, the rest of us have all gone home, haven't you realized that yet?
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,360
I just finished reading this
Alcoholism and Psychiatric Disorders
Alcohol brain damage can mimic Psychiatric Disorders. The following is information about people who actually do have these disorders even without the alcohol. That would suck so bad to be doing everything you could to get better and still have the symptoms. Those people don't need another whirl around the BB. They need medication and professional help.
When one applies these more precise definitional criteria and classifies only those patients as depressive who meet the criteria for a syndrome of a major depressive episode, approximately 30 to 40 percent of alcoholics experience a comorbid depressive disorder (Anthenelli and Schuckit 1993; Schuckit et al. 1997a
]Among the axis II personality disorders, ASPD (and the related conduct disorder, which often occurs during childhood in people who subsequently will develop ASPD) has long been recognized to be closely associated with alcoholism (Lewis et al. 1983). Epidemiologic analyses found that compared with nonalcoholics, alcohol–dependent men are 4–8 times more likely, and alcoholic women are 12–17 times more likely, to have comorbid ASPD (Helzer and Przybeck 1988; Kessler et al. 1997). Thus, approximately 15 to 20 percent of alcoholic men and 10 percent of alcoholic women have comorbid ASPD, compared with 4 percent of men and approximately 0.8 percent of women in the general population. Patients with ASPD are likely to develop alcohol dependence at an earlier age than their nonantisocial counterparts and are also more prone to having other drug use disorders (Cadoret et al. 1984; Anthenelli et al. 1994).
In addition to ASPD, other conditions marked by an externalization of impulsive aggressive behaviors, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) (Sullivan and Rudnik–Levin 2001), are also associated with increased risk of alcohol–related problems. (For more information on the relationship between alcoholism and ADHD, see the article by Smith and colleagues, pp. 122–129.)
Alcoholism and Psychiatric Disorders
Alcohol brain damage can mimic Psychiatric Disorders. The following is information about people who actually do have these disorders even without the alcohol. That would suck so bad to be doing everything you could to get better and still have the symptoms. Those people don't need another whirl around the BB. They need medication and professional help.
When one applies these more precise definitional criteria and classifies only those patients as depressive who meet the criteria for a syndrome of a major depressive episode, approximately 30 to 40 percent of alcoholics experience a comorbid depressive disorder (Anthenelli and Schuckit 1993; Schuckit et al. 1997a
]Among the axis II personality disorders, ASPD (and the related conduct disorder, which often occurs during childhood in people who subsequently will develop ASPD) has long been recognized to be closely associated with alcoholism (Lewis et al. 1983). Epidemiologic analyses found that compared with nonalcoholics, alcohol–dependent men are 4–8 times more likely, and alcoholic women are 12–17 times more likely, to have comorbid ASPD (Helzer and Przybeck 1988; Kessler et al. 1997). Thus, approximately 15 to 20 percent of alcoholic men and 10 percent of alcoholic women have comorbid ASPD, compared with 4 percent of men and approximately 0.8 percent of women in the general population. Patients with ASPD are likely to develop alcohol dependence at an earlier age than their nonantisocial counterparts and are also more prone to having other drug use disorders (Cadoret et al. 1984; Anthenelli et al. 1994).
In addition to ASPD, other conditions marked by an externalization of impulsive aggressive behaviors, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) (Sullivan and Rudnik–Levin 2001), are also associated with increased risk of alcohol–related problems. (For more information on the relationship between alcoholism and ADHD, see the article by Smith and colleagues, pp. 122–129.)
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by silentrun
Alcohol brain damage can mimic Psychiatric Disorders. The following is information about people who actually do have these disorders even without the alcohol.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by silentrun
So are you saying a pure alcoholic has to have a psychiatric disorder?
Are you saying that they all belong in Psychiatrists offices?
Redmayne
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manchester, England, UK.
Posts: 1,543
If memory serves me correctly...
If memory serves me correctly, I think there's mention in the BB, that most alcoholics, when sober are,'friendly, able and intelligent people,' not unlike most of those on here, notwithstanding the few who have mental disorders and are 'always going on the wagon' etc., etc...and are seriously psychiatrically disturbed....not unlike the odd one (geddit?) on here...
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Redmayne
... notwithstanding the few who have mental disorders and are 'always going on the wagon' etc., etc...and are seriously psychiatrically disturbed....not unlike the odd one (geddit?) on here...
It just so happens that I am a professional caregiver specializing in caring for Dementia and Alzheimer's patients.
Why do my discussions with you, seem like "work"?
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