Redmayne

To me and I know many others,quality is something you can't define but you know it when you see it...

In recovery, I've always felt that it's the quality of it, more than the quantity or longevity, that's often apparent in both others and myself, that is the most heartwarming and sets an example to others...

The good thing about quality in anyone or anything is that properly nurtured and cherished, it only improves with age. Left to its own devices or abused it often returns to less than its original form..

An obvious test of this is provided here on SRC, where to the discerning reader, you can tell by the words used in the various posts, those who really know what they're talking about on the specific subject relative to the forum or thread. Not least, despite in their sobriety date, if any (?) they provide in sharing their experience, strength and hope. They provide constructive comment or criticism...anything lacking this is similar to the Buddhist saying,'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned'. Quality, like I hope for all in recovery, doesn't have any of these qualities...

Boleo

I can easily tell when someone is using words that signify "quality" of recovery. They use words like;

Freedom (from thoughts of drinking)
Release
Liberation
Awakening
Enlightenment
Emancipation
Peace Of Mind
Joy
Sense Of Purpose

On the other hand, they almost never use words like;

Abstinence
Struggling (ODAAT)
Not-drinking
Resisting temptation
Distract your thinking

The full quote as taken in context is:

"Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned. However, if something contradicts logic but not experience, we should rely on experience rather than logic when such experience also corresponds to what the wise have to say."
(Kalama Sutta)

Redmayne

To boleo, three out of three, you fell for it...nothing personal but anyone would think you'rev pursuing an odd personal vendetta against me?

Hey, mesa man, one of the best, always...

Boleo

I gota obsession about pointing out quotes out of context and misinterpretations of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Redmayne

Seeing as you're so knowledgeable on all things, who was it said,'Old age and guile will always beat youth and enthusiasm'?

Boleo

Let's see... You said it in 2014 but Harold G. said it in 2009. Are they one in the same?

Now heres one for you; Who said "contempt prior to examination" first?

MesaMan

I just ran across my original 'Ham' Radio License the other day. As of tomorrow, I've been doing variations on this Forum 'thing' for 50 years. I started out via Morse Code, 'talking' to the World. Loved it, and it led to an Int'l Career in Semiconductor [and other] Electronics that was berry, berry gud to me. Retired years ago at age 48. Which gave me 'too much' time to Drink, but that's been permanently resolved. It took that 'Past' to get to this 'Present'. No regrets, because that simply is what had to happen.

My long-standing Unit-of-Measure when absorbing POVs continues to be how fundamentally a Person appears willing to understand - or let ride - a POV completely outside their own experience. Can they, on a basis of 'Open Mindedness', imagine a Recovery essentially different from their own? Can they imagine a series of Values very different from their own? If they can, we'll be Virtual Pals in Recovery. If they can't, we won't.

Some here can't imagine lasting Sobriety based on Human Decision. I can, 'cause I did exactly that. As did others here. I could not care less about how widespread a Recovery Approach is because this is not some Popularity Contest to assess Recovery Methods as one might judge McDonald's Hamburgers: based on some number of 'Fans'. The collective Opinion of millions doesn't somehow negate my Personal Truth. Or, alter my Boundaries. I alone make those changes.

To give a daunting example of Values differences I had to adapt to during Int'l Travel, I could not imagine a Restaurant where penned Dogs out back are killed to order, and cooked. I didn't eat Dog at one personally, but they exist in Asia. This stark reminder of just how very different dearly-held Values can be is something I invoke almost-daily here on SR. If someone pops onto SR anonymously, and states they practice 'x, y, z', I assume they're telling the truth. The viability to them doesn't much matter if I can personally relate or not. To try to relate is the ongoing Mind-stretching - and Personal Values - challenge.

When Folks feel the need to 'interpret for me' what my experiences - or the experiences of another - are, I simply laugh them off. I can't take that POV seriously. That's not a Recovery I covet. I encounter this same sort of projected personal insecurity on everything from Political Forums to Gun Owner's Forums. Someone always knows best re: what another should think, or do. Decades ago, I imagined a joke Tee Shirt saying: 'I'm Right. Just Ask Me'.

I assess Recovery viability here by Quality. Not by elapsed time - Quantity - or by vigorous assertions. It's easy to discern The Masters.
.

Boleo

I can easily imagine "Sobriety based on Human Decision". They mostly call themselves "teetotaler's". They don't much grab my attention. Except when they peruse a Recovery web site and brag about how easy it was for them to get sober.

I myself, found recovery to be by far the hardest thing that I have ever done. A thousand times harder than getting a bachelor's degree. A million times harder than boot-camp and it darn near killed me in the process.

Now I got a question for you MM. How is your recovery any different than Bob Newhart's $5 solution?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw

Redmayne

As Sun Tzu said in his book,'The Art of WAr',which is about life itself really....

'You must control events otherwise events will control you,' I guess, in one form or another all those in recovery are aware of this...

'If you stand by a river long enough, you will see the dead bodies of your enemies float by,' but then again, he did live in violent times..

Personally, I'm always grateful for those who disturb me, because they make me choose exactly the person I don't want to be...

Although I'm struggling to remember the name of the guy who on another forum, claimed to everyone's astonishment, that Tarzan who I'd always understood is a fictional character, was a Buddhist? Oh yeah, it was good ole Boleo....

Not quite the example of constructive comment or criticism most of us, in recovery are looking for...unless of course I've got it all wrong...

Boleo

I used to read Sun Tzu... Till I started reading Lao Tzu. Then I realized that Sun Tzu was a neophyte.

So quoting out of context was not enough? Now you are cross-threading quotes from multiple authors. A little fact checking might get me to stop scooping up your er..um, words of wisdom.

silentrun

Obsessed you say?

Boleo

"The truth is something so noble, that if God were to step aside from it, I would grab hold of Truth and let go of god."
(Meister Eckhart)

Redmayne

Wow! Misinterpretations of the Big Book. Well, let's see, so that gives us two choices, either the first 100 who contributed to it got it wrong, in whole or part or all those, particularly the late Joe McQuany and Charlie Parmly, revered by thousands, perhaps millions of recovered alcoholics via their 'Big Book' Study Meetings, held worldwide over a number of years, plus all those other noted AA speakers, Clancy, Jack Brennan et al, misinterpreted it to...in that case, applying cognitive thinking (truth and reason) what was and still is the point of us being here or anywhere else where it's still in practice?

We may as well all pack up and go home! Which in that case, will leave you all on your own, to misinterpret everything, as you usually do, all by yourself...anyone want to vote on it?

And whilst we're at it, hands up all those who think Tarzan was a Buddhist? We probably got that wrong to ?

Oh yeah, shall we throw in the moons made of green cheese, Elvis is alive and well and working in a fast food joint?

And let's not forget, this is recovery from alcoholism, a fatal disease/illness that has taken the lives of many and will no doubt continue to do so. Personally speaking, I don't think, in recovery, misinterpretation of anything that concerns mine or anyone else's recovery is up for discussion balanced against constructive comment or criticism....

Boleo

Choice #1 - The Big Book says "self-reliance" keeps us sober?

I guess that page must have missing from the 14 Big Books that I have owned.

Choice #2 ,"Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned"?

Never meet a good-old-timer who said anything remotely resembling that (including the dozen or so Joe&Charlie talks that I have heard). In fact, Bill W spent most of his career pointing us in the exact opposite direction from that. The phrase "Rocketed into the 4th dimension" couldn't possibly contradict logic more.

Now heres a Big Book passage that not only contradicts most everything that you say, plus I'll I bet you have never read it even once:

AA History - The Professor and The Paradox

Boleo

If you ever get around to checking any of your facts, you will find that someone else said that. It is 100%

Redmayne

It's really great to see you here, Boleo because you make me and I'm sure many others in the manner you approach alcoholism and recovery as an academic exercise, evidence that you know little about it or the pain and suffering many have endured in real terms, so that your presence here can make us chose the very person we don't want to be...not least in recovery... an example to us all.

Which is why I placed you on my 'Ignore Contact' list months ago...so you can rant and rave all you want...

Redmayne

must get lonely out there, huh? you, the only one spotting all those misinterpretations and the rest of us unable to see the truth of anything, without your intervention...tough call...

Boleo

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2597034

Actually I would say you buried your head in the sand way before that.

The reason I have posted 2400+ times in the 12 Step forum is because I want to know when and how I am misinterpreting the Big Book. You have been avoiding learning any of those lessons by hiding out in this slow and uneventful forum where you drop your er... um, words of wisdom without feedback.

Ken33xx

Well, we`ve got a bit of drama going on here at SR. However, nothing as hot as last Sunday night inter-group meeting in my neck of the woods: Two heavy-hitters both with 30 plus years of sobriety got into it over something minor. (Unpaid bill). They really hate each other with one calling the other, "an evil, evil little man."

Saturday night was interesting as well: A member who joined our community about 1.5 years ago attended. I was surprised to see him because he complained the tone of the meeting was about sharing "the mess and not the message." So he joined the happy, joyous and free crowd at another time . Well, it seems he threatened to kill his co-worker last week. Guess he`s not so happy, joyous and free.

AA... sometimes the best show in town. Can`t get to my weekend meetings fast enough.

Redmayne

Hi thanks for that, nothing's changed then, which explains why I stopped attending them eight years ago...done on the basis that at some, if they didn't read out the AA Preamble at the start of the meeting, you wouldn't even know you were at an AA meeting...and/or when it became apparent that there were people present whose problems were nothing to do with alcohol, alcoholism or recovery and everything to do with the disturbed state of their mental health...

It's getting like that on here now...which makes me think of what Carl Sandburg said,'A society which forgets where it came from, will destroy itself,' history has proved the truth of that on more than one occasion...