Why do people force the disease and 12 steps on everyone else?
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by Confuseddotcom 
it is strange though how many more AA/NarAnon ppl are likely to use more aggressive sounding phrases than people who go a different approach,
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,967
AA does not have a disease concept of alcoholism; it's a malady..... 
working the steps helps us to find a power greater than ourselves, that's all, we only need to believe our way isn't working then we take a look at our patterns of behaving....
there are so many methods available today to help us to stay stopped, if we are willing to stick with it
keep moving forward in sobriety!
working the steps helps us to find a power greater than ourselves, that's all, we only need to believe our way isn't working then we take a look at our patterns of behaving....
there are so many methods available today to help us to stay stopped, if we are willing to stick with it
keep moving forward in sobriety!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 35
lol sugarbear are we down to semantics now?
malady
A malady is an illness, like a malady that keeps you home, sick in bed for days, or something that causes you to have trouble or to suffer, like jet lag — a malady that affects travelers.
Malady, pronounced "MAL-uh-dee," comes from the Latin words male, meaning "bad or ill" and habitus for "have, hold." When you have a malady, it is like something bad is holding you, such as an illness — the common cold: a malady of winter. Some bad habits cause maladies, such as never having any money — the malady of people who spend freely, not thinking of the future.
disease
A disease is a health condition that has a specific set of symptoms and traits — such as malaria or heart disease.
Disease is not always about the human body being sick. Plants and animals are often the victims of disease. People also use the word disease in a more figurative sense to illustrate just how bad or damaging a negative influence can be — like the disease of greed among capitalists or the disease of plagiarism among college students.
illness
n impairment of normal physiological function affecting part or all of an organism
Synonyms:
malady, sickness, unwellness
sounds all pretty much the same to me but ok for arguements' sake i will make a mental note to refer to it as a "malady model" vs "a choice"
malady
A malady is an illness, like a malady that keeps you home, sick in bed for days, or something that causes you to have trouble or to suffer, like jet lag — a malady that affects travelers.
Malady, pronounced "MAL-uh-dee," comes from the Latin words male, meaning "bad or ill" and habitus for "have, hold." When you have a malady, it is like something bad is holding you, such as an illness — the common cold: a malady of winter. Some bad habits cause maladies, such as never having any money — the malady of people who spend freely, not thinking of the future.
disease
A disease is a health condition that has a specific set of symptoms and traits — such as malaria or heart disease.
Disease is not always about the human body being sick. Plants and animals are often the victims of disease. People also use the word disease in a more figurative sense to illustrate just how bad or damaging a negative influence can be — like the disease of greed among capitalists or the disease of plagiarism among college students.
illness
n impairment of normal physiological function affecting part or all of an organism
Synonyms:
malady, sickness, unwellness
sounds all pretty much the same to me
but ok for arguements' sake i will make a mental note to refer to it as a "malady model" vs "a choice"
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Sorry to nit pick but I have a pdf of the 4th edition primarily for ease of access but also for looking things up. The word disease is mentioned 29 times. The first is on page 64 as follows:
"Resentment is the “number one’’ offender. It destroys
more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all
forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only
mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually
sick."
"Resentment is the “number one’’ offender. It destroys
more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all
forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only
mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually
sick."
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by Confuseddotcom
i find that quote really insulting to people who choose alternative ways to being clean/sobriety! really? they can sod off?? Personally i find it hard to take some of the views of AA/NarAnon, this goes back to the "disease model" vs the "choice model".. for me, i made a choice (a BAD choice) to take handfuls of pills, im not sick or diseased, i made a bad choice to escape from whatever it is that i can't face and because they gave me a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling and nothing much mattered. I am not doomed to a lifelong struggle, i have to be committed to overcoming certain thought and behaviour patterns and, like a child, i have to be open to be taught different ways of coping.
If other people are happy to subscribe to a lifeterm of treatment, believe that they were powerless and want to go down that route, that is FINE, but i wouldnt tell anybody who disagrees with my personal, more scientific route to getting back to normal life to sod off. Using aggressive language as such does sound like forcing one way over another onto people, you are basically saying that the ONLY way is the AA/NarAnon way and that's just not true.
If other people are happy to subscribe to a lifeterm of treatment, believe that they were powerless and want to go down that route, that is FINE, but i wouldnt tell anybody who disagrees with my personal, more scientific route to getting back to normal life to sod off. Using aggressive language as such does sound like forcing one way over another onto people, you are basically saying that the ONLY way is the AA/NarAnon way and that's just not true.
Sod off is a lot less strong than get lost so maybe this part was lost in translation like Dee implied along with me thinking before I post;-)
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 35
lol oh come on yeahgr8 we BOTH know being this side of the pond that you may as well have said eff off (at least in this part of the country where im from) 
and yes i agree it is getting pedantic and semantic and all sorts other things FUN at times..
urgh prunes why dont you add some plums to your inventory then i might frequent your shop and spend some money there :P
Oh and i hope were all having great day today! which ever way were going..
and yes i agree it is getting pedantic and semantic and all sorts other things FUN at times..urgh prunes
why dont you add some plums to your inventory then i might frequent your shop and spend some money there :POh and i hope were all having great day today! which ever way were going..
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,457
I removed several posts today relating to phrases and what they meant - let's not go back to that, please.
This thread is not about that.
PM's are the best medium for personal discussions.
Posts relating back to the OP - please.
D
This thread is not about that.
PM's are the best medium for personal discussions.
Posts relating back to the OP - please.
D
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 35
I just had another thought... this is a WORLD WIDE forum, so for some people here, english may not necessarily be the first language (for me its the third, but i am considered fluent in all).. and i wonder if in some countries literature is translated differently than in the us/uk available literature?
But yeahgr8.. (lol i almost typed jack as dee referred to you as jack the lad).. i can sort of see where everyone is coming from.. the frustration of being told that something that worked for you is not working for someone else, so they come along and promote something different, then invariably yet another person comes along and says "well none of those actually work you need THIS method" and so on and on we go until all of us are blue in the face and exasperated.
I still maintain that there are valuable tools and support and help to be found EVERYWHERE, even in the least likely place we may pick up something that will help.
But yeahgr8.. (lol i almost typed jack as dee referred to you as jack the lad).. i can sort of see where everyone is coming from.. the frustration of being told that something that worked for you is not working for someone else, so they come along and promote something different, then invariably yet another person comes along and says "well none of those actually work you need THIS method" and so on and on we go until all of us are blue in the face and exasperated.
I still maintain that there are valuable tools and support and help to be found EVERYWHERE, even in the least likely place we may pick up something that will help.
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Originally Posted by biminiblue
Well this has gotten pedantic, hasn't it LOL?
Pedantic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
But anyway, getting back on topic...
I think recovery is basically just getting oneself back together again, hopefully better than ever. The how doesn't matter; just the results.
I think recovery is basically just getting oneself back together again, hopefully better than ever. The how doesn't matter; just the results.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 35
lol dsober i guess we could be accused of echolalia .. i think it is great that we can have a bit of fun interspersed with this very seious topic.
And, if someone like me, who is in very early days, can learn from a discussion such as this (i had never heard of rational recovery) and see that there are as many different approaches as there are addicts, it is only a good thing. The first thing people say to me is usually "well why dont you go to aa" .. i then have to try and explain that im hooked on codeine/painmeds NOT alcohol, but to be perfectly honest, when it comes to alcohol, my first and foremost thought in "the days before my own fall" was always AA is the only way.
Maybe it is because AA have been around for such a long time and the secular approaches are fairly new, cbt, rebt, RR et al are all relatively "new concepts" in the world of psychology and the various applications.
A bit like treatments for depression/anxiety.. those have drastically changed from overmedicating in the 60s/70s/80s to more talking and cognitive based first time approaches.
This is really an invaluable thread, with HUGE amounts of information.. i have trawled back to earlier pages and have picked up some great points.
And, if someone like me, who is in very early days, can learn from a discussion such as this (i had never heard of rational recovery) and see that there are as many different approaches as there are addicts, it is only a good thing. The first thing people say to me is usually "well why dont you go to aa" .. i then have to try and explain that im hooked on codeine/painmeds NOT alcohol, but to be perfectly honest, when it comes to alcohol, my first and foremost thought in "the days before my own fall" was always AA is the only way.
Maybe it is because AA have been around for such a long time and the secular approaches are fairly new, cbt, rebt, RR et al are all relatively "new concepts" in the world of psychology and the various applications.
A bit like treatments for depression/anxiety.. those have drastically changed from overmedicating in the 60s/70s/80s to more talking and cognitive based first time approaches.
This is really an invaluable thread, with HUGE amounts of information.. i have trawled back to earlier pages and have picked up some great points.
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Jeez confused... I'm spending as much time at the dictionary as I am here, lol.
Pedantic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
I agree. I know my first and only thought initially was AA. Various authorities think/believe likewise. As you said, probably because it's been around so long. The book was written in 1939, and hence the name AA, but it evolved from the Oxdord groups before it.
I learned, and am still learning about the other approaches. AA, at last, seems to be working for me but I'm not a strict adherent. Many in AA frown upon this but many others, like myself, say: "Take what you need and leave the rest". As far as I'm concerned, whatever works. The important thing is what's said at the end of many meetings: "Keep coming back". I believe any approach is going to take time. Longer for some than for others. One must never quit; the consequences for the addict (of any mind altering substance) are too grave.
As for substances other than alcohol, I've been to rehab for 1 month stretches twice. There were addicts of all shapes and sizes there. We all went to AA, NA and CA meetings. They're all based on the Big Book and none of us ever felt unwelcome or out of place at any of them.
Pedantic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
I agree. I know my first and only thought initially was AA. Various authorities think/believe likewise. As you said, probably because it's been around so long. The book was written in 1939, and hence the name AA, but it evolved from the Oxdord groups before it.
I learned, and am still learning about the other approaches. AA, at last, seems to be working for me but I'm not a strict adherent. Many in AA frown upon this but many others, like myself, say: "Take what you need and leave the rest". As far as I'm concerned, whatever works. The important thing is what's said at the end of many meetings: "Keep coming back". I believe any approach is going to take time. Longer for some than for others. One must never quit; the consequences for the addict (of any mind altering substance) are too grave.
As for substances other than alcohol, I've been to rehab for 1 month stretches twice. There were addicts of all shapes and sizes there. We all went to AA, NA and CA meetings. They're all based on the Big Book and none of us ever felt unwelcome or out of place at any of them.
Recovered from Hopeless State
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Oops, wrong link...
Echolalia - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Echolalia - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
Originally Posted by freshstart57
The AMA is not the medical community. Most doctors do not belong to it, and those that do feel that it does not speak for them. Even doctors who are AA members overwhelmingly do not believe this. Were you referring to some other reference for this?
People die from tobacco consumption too. They are addicts, and their addiction has many health repercussions and some of them can be fatal, while their addiction itself is not considered a disease.
People die from tobacco consumption too. They are addicts, and their addiction has many health repercussions and some of them can be fatal, while their addiction itself is not considered a disease.
You are correct that its acceptance of the disease concept in the 1950s is what I was referring to.
Perhaps I was in error referring to that as the medical community.
You may want to look at these:
Alcoholism Definition - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic
Alcohol Use Disorders | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)
Coincidentally, I got to tour the Mayo Clinic in Rochester a couple of weeks ago, and I was pretty overwhelmed with the experience.
I am comfortable accepting its assessment on anything, and, if I am ever very ill, I will go there for care.
You say that "Even doctors who are AA members overwhelmingly do not believe this."
I certainly haven't noticed this.
But I don't debate the disease concept during or after AA meetings, because I try to focus on what I need to do to stay sober.
Alcoholism either is a disease or it isn't.
I don't purport to know and I don't care.
I am not a physician.
You may be a doctor and have a better read on this matter.
But I do know that alcoholism can kill me.
Take care,
CAH
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
