OutofIdeas75

I am not only sick and tired of this debilitating addiction, but I fear it is affecting my health in a serious way (I'll elaborate later). I haven't asked for help before, so I apologize if I do not come across correctly.
I have registered and read over some of the forum sticky topics, but feel I need some additional advice, and hope I have come to the right place. I apologize in advance for such a lengthy post, but please understand that this is the first time I am asking for help, and want to provide as much information as I can to receive adequate advice and to outline my condition for other people to possibly relate to...so they know they are not suffering alone.

For the last few years, I have built an addiction to Lorcets (Watson 503 - 10-650's aka "green beans"). It started out by visiting the dentist for legit reasons, then I broke a few bones in an accident, obtaining yet more prescriptions. I have never, until recently, faked a doctor visit in order to receive my pain medications. I have only faked a doctor visit once, and to be quite honest, it was very easy to be prescribed 120 Lorcet 10-650's within an hour of visitation to a "pain management" clinic (my "friends" call them "pill mills", as they know exactly what is going on with these prescriptions).

Habit outline:
I started out taking 1 pill every 4 hours, as directed. Then, in order to get the same "high", I had to increase dosage over the last 2 years. This has resulted in my current situation where I am no longer getting a "high", but rather avoiding detoxing.
Currently, I am taking 7 Lorcet 10-650's at a time, every 2.5-3 hours. I have detoxed at least a dozen times (which is pure HELL), yet I always slip into a "celebration" dose a week or so later...which puts me right back into my cycles. I am very self aware as to what I am doing and what risk I am taking.

Ill affects:
Financially, it's ruining me. I buy 99% of my pills illegally. I pay anywhere from $3-5 each. I have a very good career, and make a very decent living. However, all the gain I receive for my skills is negated by the required funds it takes to sustain my habit.

Medically, I have developed sores on my body (mostly on my shoulders and calves) from the itching sensation the drug creates. It's not a lot, but it's enough that I noticed that these "scratch scabs" aren't going away, but getting worse.
My stomach has been through a gauntlet of abuse, and currently I have daily bouts of nausea where I cannot keep food down for very long.
Sleep is only obtained by taking 1-1.5 Xanex "bars" to fall asleep. I do not have an addiction to these other than the fact that I seem to require some type of sleep aid...or I won't sleep AT ALL.

Detox is an experience relative to all the other experiences described on the net. It feels close to death, and I need at least 2 weeks recovery time. During these 2 weeks, I'm lucky to get out of bed to make it to the bathroom...so a vacation from work is required to "get through" the detox period. I cannot describe the depth of suffering I endure when I work up the courage to commit to detoxing. I have found that dosing Xanex bars and Somas to stay asleep works best, as I believe in the saying that the body heals 10x faster while sleeping...and it keeps me in a coma state during the suffering parts of the process. I would rather sleep for 10 days straight than endure a day of the horrible feeling I experience during detox.


I have heard of a drug that is available to help with detox... I don't know what it is, nor how to receive it, but I was told that you take 1 pill a day to counter-act the withdraw symptoms...similar to heroin addicts taking methadone. Is this a real thing?

Tapering...

Does this work? Won't I suffer the ill effects of detox by tapering, too? Won't I just be stretching out the discomfort of withdraws by being in a constant state of "I need more to feel normal"? If not, what is the recommended steps of tapering? 1 less pill per dose? Longer periods in between dosing? What is the target dose per day before going cold turkey?

Home remedies...

Is there anything I can take to stem the affects of withdraw, that I can get OTC?

I want to stop taking these pills...forever. I am done, but I need a way out that won't put me back in to avoid the horrible withdraws. Psychologically, I can handle quitting. It's the physical aspect that I need help with.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thank you.

OutofIdeas75

To add, after calculating how much I take per day, I found that I am taking over 27,300MG of acetaminophen a day... I understand that is double the amount that is liver damaging... So, I assume that my liver is probably not in too good of shape and is probably the reason for my skin condition. Luckily, I'm not a drinker, so I am not adding to the damage by drinking alcohol ontop of it.

Any advice on that would be very helpful, as well.

Dee74

Hi Outofideas75.

We're a peer support group here - we can share our experience but only within our rules....(rule 10 here

It's in your best interests to obtain medical advice from a professional.

I recommend you see a Dr and ask these questions about symptoms, med, tapering and home remedies of them - it's a priority especially if you're taking large amounts of paracetamol every day.

D

OutofIdeas75

I am taking Lorcets (Vicoden) every day.
I apologize if my post violates the forum rules, as I have read your link and cannot connect my post with any infractions. The information I am requesting has been given to other members, but it was specific to their needs, not mine. I am merely seeking advice on the most effective way to taper (amount, time or a combination of both), if there is a methadone equivalent for codeine withdraws and what a toxic dose of acetaminophen is per day (which I have found an answer for already). I am also seeking advice on home remedies/OTC resolutions for assistance with symptoms of the detox process. All of these questions have been asked and answered on your forum, but as I said, the answers were tailored to the posters specific query and dosage amounts.

I do not seek medical advice, merely support for a subject matter that this forum seems to specialize in. Maybe I have come to the wrong place to request assistance in planning for the process by which I can obtain my abstinence from my "DOC".

Untoxicated

That's about 7 times the maximum recommended dose and about 3-4 times the toxic dose.

Toxicity, Acetaminophen: eMedicine Emergency Medicine (WebMD)

You may not like the advice but you should see a doctor.

Dee74

I sent you a PM.

Again, the best advice anyone can give you is see a Dr - quite apart from anything else that's a really dangerous amount of paracetamol by anyones standards.

D

Marcus

Definitely get yourself to a doctor. I was taking 40 norcos a day for a while which is an INSANE amount of tylenol, but still only 1/2 of what you are ingesting (27 GRAMS of APAP a day). Don't wait until your body shuts down. Your liver can recover, but you should get professional help now. They can set you up for a safe detox plan too. We will be here to help support you through whatever schedule they put you on.

whiskerkissed

Welcome to SR. This is the first place I came to the very first time I asked for help, too.

I've detoxed twice - once cold-turkey with a docs help...second time - medical detox facility.

Tapering never worked for me. I was still taking a drug and my mental and physical dependence was too strong. I needed a 6 day detox. Had to take time off from work to do it in a safe, medically staffed place. Insurance paid.

I had to get honest with my doctors. Get the help I needed.

TheReader

Your story sounds like mine from about 7-10 years ago. For about 3 years back then I took the exact same drug - 12 to 15 pills per day at the max. - 3 at a time4 to 5 times per day. My main side affect was weight gain - about 30 lbs. in 3 yrs. I was 50 yrs old when I finally quit. I did taper, but never bought off the street or truly doc shopped. I did it over 4 months and took the last pill 8/17/2003 (just one pill that day). Stayed clean until the summer of 2004 (after losing 60 lbs) when I began buying codeine on line, just a little at first; and then off and on until Nov. 2010. I tapered off that, too, and have been clean 65 days. I don't know why I went back to opiates, except I can tell you I don't think I was ever totally committed to recovery back then and was also dealing with and angry at 25 yr alcoholic husband until his recovery 5 yrs ago. I am committed today and SR is a valuable resource to me to my recovery.
However, we are all different in our body structure and health history. I can taper; others can't. I always ate very nutriously during all my using years and got some exercise. I agree with others that due to your symptoms and use patterns, medical advice from a doctor is best. I am also concerned you cannot sleep with this large dose of opiates.
Please keep posting. There are some posts on SR surrounding oxy use that may also be helpful in answering some of your questions about natural remedies and w/d assistance - what worked for others, but not medical advice.

windysan

Go see a doctor. Go to a detox/rehab. It's MUCH easier to kick there and you'll have medical supervision. If you don't you'll prolly die.

good luck

OutofIdeas75

My issue with going to a rehab clinic is the affect it will have on my job. Also with future employers. Can't they see this information? It's not only embarrassing, but no one wants an ex-junkie working for them...

I would rather try tapering to detox at home... I know it's hard (I've done it a dozen times), but if I had better tactics, I'm sure I can make it out the other side this time.

Thanks for the replies.

FT

Hey OutOfIdeas:

You actually HAVE come to the right place, where support for your decision to quit oxys and to let us help you through the withdrawal phase with a great deal of empathy and compassion, as pretty much all of the posters on some of the threads have been through exactly what you are going through.

We're all careful about "medical advice," and I hear ya. You do need medical advice, but you also need some company.

If you haven't already read the threads, "Oxycodone withdrawal help..." and "I'm going cold turkey off oxycodone....", I would recommend reading through both of those for lots of people's experiences with withdrawal.

First things first, though, it would not be medical advice to tell you that the medical literature will tell you that taking more than 4 grams, or 4,000 milligrams of tylenol (paracetamol, acetominophen) can be toxic to your liver. It is so toxic, that some people who have viewed it as as "good idea" to commit suicide with it have suffered DAYS of agony in liver failure from the overdose -- not pretty.

No one but a physician can tell you whether you have done liver damage yet, or if you have how much, but the liver is regenerative to a point -- if you STOP what you are doing. That's why Dee74 is so strongly recommending you get to a doc right away, because nothing we can say or do for you here will help you find that out. Don't be afraid to go. Simple blood tests can tell the doctor very quickly if your liver is suffering. I have no idea if your skin lesions are a sign of liver toxicity, but a doctor should look at them, like NOW.

Back to your other questions, though. Yes, there are doctors who do a medical detox, and all you have to do is Google "Addiction Medicine" and you will probably find a bunch of them where you live. Around here the doctors who do it have to be specially trained to use "Suboxone," which is the brand name for buprenorphine and naloxone combined, if you want to look it up. There is even a forum here that is devoted to that topic, so you should look at it.

I hear you when you talk about the physical withdrawals being prohibitive of your stopping oxys. The other "half" you speak of is the psychological piece, which part doesn't seem to worry you.

I can only speak to my own experience, but when it really comes down to it, when the physical withdrawals are coming at you in the form of cold sweats, stomach cramping, diarrhea, whole body aches, insomnia, and the like -- man oh man, that gets to your head -- so, for me anyway, the psychological piece is the way you STAY in recovery or not.

Yeah, the physical piece is REAL crappy, and I don't need to tell you more about it here, because you seem to have that part down. But I would urge you to PLEASE prepare yourself for the psych piece.

It isn't my invention, but I call the psych piece the "addict brain," because it is the part of you that will start screaming at you to use. It will CONVINCE you that life cannot be lived, and this withdrawal cannot be tolerated, without caving and using. When I started my recovery from oxys on December 15, 2010, my addict brain was screaming at me so loudly I did not know if I could withstand another second of it, stand another day of feeling so sick I could not move, but I couldn't hold still either. It was horrible.

So I came here. I reached out to the guys on this forum, and I wanted to find out HOW do you DO this? CAN you do this? Has ANYONE ever gotten through this? What kind of SAINT must that person be? Certainly, not ME. Then thank God for SquareHead who posts here a lot. He reached out to me, and suddenly I was no longer alone. Thank you SquareHead for getting me on the right track!

I read and I read and I read, first the "oxycodone withdrawal help..." thread, and then I posted there. I was terrified, sick, and I hadn't told my husband or my doctor what I had been doing, which was trying to taper, over and over, failing at tapering over and over (hence my "handle" here), getting higher and higher doses of drug, then taking so much it was making me sicker and sicker.

I think you are there. This drug is making you sicker than it ever had the ability to make you feel good. Now you never feel good. You never feel normal anymore. Now, life just consists of how to stay out of withdrawals. That's where I was.

I did my detox on my own without a doc. But I wasn't using the tylenol combo you are using. Either way, a doc has to get involved. Even with me, I did get my doc involved a few weeks after I had already stopped the oxys, because I had to know, had to find out how much damage I had done to myself. So I went in, after I fessed up to my husband who almost killed me with anger for awhile (no, he's a gentle guy folks). I went in for a complete physical and had blood taken, and I told the doctor about my addiction. Because I didn't want the stigma of "addiction" written in bold on my medical chart, the doctor was kind enough to list oxycodone and opiates in my drug allergies, as an "adverse reaction."

PLEASE get to the doc. You've got to get your healing under control. The psych piece will come. If you taper, you will still withdraw. Check out the suboxone thread. Get your medical advice from a real person and not off the internet. I'm in the medical field and, while I would love to advise people medically, I recognize that I CAN'T DO THAT with someone I unable to place my hands upon, look in the eye, and do the proper followup that a good doc will do for you.

Please tell us how you are doing. I am SO GLAD you came here. This is the RIGHT place to post, and there will be some good experiences to help you on your path. Good people here.

As we say on the "going cold turkey" thread, FOK the OX. (no offense intended here, just raw humor)

OutofIdeas75

Well, after the initial disheartening reply, the rest of the responses were exactly what I was looking for. For that, I give you my thanks.

I have contacted 8 different "clinics" for detox... A few of them were those weirdo pill doctors that try to put you on a "Whole Body Healing" pill regimen...which is just a scam. However, I have been pointed in the right directions.

It was suggested that I go the way of a 2 week Suboxone (sp?) regimen to avoid the suggested YEAR of taking the stuff and tapering off of it, too. They said replacing my addiction with another addiction defeats the purpose. Also, it's an out-patient situation, without the label of "recovering addict" on my file. This is exactly what I have been looking for. I know my strengths (psychological dependence avoidance) and I know my weaknesses (relapsing as an art). So, getting through the physical toll it puts on the body is the #1 thing for me at this point. Staying away from it will be easier if I'm not experiencing the "near death" part of detox. If I wanted to substitute, there is a plethora of other narcotics I could do... But I don't want that. I want to be squeaky clean for now on. I have other responsibilities in life that need my attention, instead of living on a 3 hour at a time life clock. I'm sick of timing my doses...it's become a religion of sorts...and I want out. Currently, I'm looking at the clock... I dosed at 10am, and it's almost 1pm...time for another 7...ugh....

OutofIdeas75

Yes, exactly. Thank you.


Been there, done that. I would come across an important project for work and think, "This is the wrong time to quit...I need to be "on top of my game" for this...and being a zombie will not allow me to get this done... I need to ensure I have adequate doses to make it through this...then I'll think about detox later!". The addiction is tricky...

It's nice to be able to talk to people who have actual experience with what I am going through!

FT

When I was on oxy's, I truly felt I was at the top of my game. I felt like I did my "best work" when the oxy's were still making me feel good.

Now, at 2 months clean, I look back at the past couple of years and I can't believe no one noticed my sluggish response to things, and since I work alone at my computer much of the time, nobody was there to see my chin hit my chest as I nodded off for a few seconds, at the peak of my "best work."

I wasn't thinking clearly for a LONG time. Somehow I got through it, and I now realize it was like trying to hear someone talk to you when you are under water, like in a pool. The oxy cloud that enveloped me was soft and fuzzy for awhile. I wasn't hearing things correctly, I certainly wasn't seeing things correctly, and I was CLEARLY (in hindsight) NOT doing my "best work."

The addict brain has all its lies in order. You likely know them all well by now. Knowing they are lies won't stop you from using, because you WANT to believe them. It is only AFTER you are in so deep that it's hard to climb out that your realize that the OX is poisoning not just your body, but your brain, the thinking part of us that is driving the car, so to speak.

Well, I AM DRIVING THE CAR now, not my addict brain. You know that detoxing is so worth it on many levels, not the least of which is being able to function at peak performance at whatever it is you do. Oxys will only inhibit that, and at some point you will get CAUGHT. Either YOU will catch YOURSELF, or something is going to happen that pulls the rug out of your career, whatever that may be.

You sound smart, and you sound savvy. I think you know EXACTLY what you need to do. Yeah, I've been through it. As a medical professional about to re-enter clinical practice, I could NOT have proceeded in the manner I was doing. I can not, and will not.

Like I've said elsewhere before, look around you at the world. How many of the people that you see every day would YOU want to be high on oxys? Other drivers? Your doctor? The bus driver? The mailman? ANYBODY who could affect your safety and wellbeing? HELL no. MOST other people don't walk around in the OXY FOG. My addict brain had me convinced that it was not POSSIBLE to ever, ever, ever, EVER feel like a normal person or have the strength and stamina to do ANYTHING unless I was on oxys. BIG addict brain lie.

Funny thing is, once you have been there, you SEE the ones that ARE in the OXY FOG. You don't want to be one of them, at least I don't.

As you do this, you will feel like crap during withdrawal. Come here and tell us about it. Share what's happening to you, how you feel, how you cope with it. There are lots of people who hover here, never posting, but who gain strength and resolve to get off this OXY HELL because they see others of us doing just that.

I'll be waiting to hear from you, along with the rest of us here.

TheReader

This was me exactly. On opiates, I cooked better, cleaned better, worked better, planned supply around major projects and holidays, on and on. Now that my fog has lifted, I realize I have done more true work with actual results in the past few weeks than I did in the past six months. I use to "plan" to do a lot while high, did some, but planned more than did.

Timebuster

Welcome to the boards OutofIdeas75,

I hate to come in and pee in the proverbial Lucky Charms parade, but my ES&H...this is how addiction starts, not how it ends. You go through WD"s or Taper then what?

You need a better plan than the one you're making up for yourself, which is to say, the 'staying busy' plan. It may work for awhile, but I can tell you from experience, it takes more than that.

I seriously recommend getting yourself into some program of recovery. Otherwise, there is every chance that someday you're going to be one of those people trying to kick ungodly amounts of dope...Again....your life in a total shambles...Again.

Don't underestimate this disease my friend. A LOT of us for whom the disease eventually ended up much worse went through self-enforced 'clean periods', especially early on. Again, not to rain on the parade, but I hope you heed what I'm trying to share with you here.

Take it from someone who's tried it, and seen a LOT of other people try it ... without a good longer-term outcome.

Best of luck, and hang in there.

TB

FT

Nobody wins in this drug game. Nobody.

I hear Timebuster, and I hear a hardened edge to this deal. I get the "Lucky Charms Parade.

Metaphors are not missed on me, and when I hear posts like Timebuster's, it reminds me that we are a mixed bag here.

Welcome all comers.

Really.

The truth is, I really think that few of the hardened folks that I met in the pain-doc waiting room, the hundreds of drawn, weary faces, tired from the struggle of survival, some who managed to get L&I to pay for their gig, some persuading enough drug from the pain-doc to sell as soon as they got out the door to pay for their own supply -- very, very few of those guys would give a crap about how I got there, and would not be able to relate to my experience any more than their grandma shaking their finger at them and telling them how hard life was for them when they their age, and THEY never had any trouble getting a job, never had any trouble with DRUGS.

I am not street-wise. I don't know s--t about snorting, shooting up, popping, mainlining, nothin'. I really don't. Any if anybody comes to this site seeking experience getting off that crap, they aren't going to want to talk to me.

Some people here will relate to me, some won't. I'm not saying that Timebuster IS street-wise, but if he is, well we need him. Street-wise people are going to recognize others that are such, just by their manner of reference, their experiences, and yes, their age.

Like I said on another thread, I probably have underwear older than most of you reading here, posting here. Timebuster is right -- you can spend a lot of your life with bursts of being clean, figuring you're DONE, falling down again, getting into worse drugs and higher doses and other methods of putting drugs into your system, getting clean again -- just repeating this downward spiral over and over and over again until you're in so deep you don't think you can get out, or you die. For many, the only way out is some kind of organized help, like NA, AA, etc. Thank God they are there, and they have saved a lot of lives.

I don't want to throw OutOfIdeas off track. I have no idea who he will relate to here, maybe nobody. Maybe me. I think throwing him a hard line is not a bad idea. It is an angle to this drug issue that doesn't describe me, but a LOT of people coming to this forum WILL relate to every word he says.

I don't think I'm really making much of a point here, except to say that drug addiction is hitting ALL walks of life. They used to show us films about drug addiction when I was in grade school in the 50's, black and white things showing prostitutes lying in alleys, and the HEROIN addict hovering over her with a cigarette hanging out of the side of his mouth, and he probably had SYPHILIS. That was how we were taught about drug addiction in the 50's. And REEFER MADNESS. My God, it is now a cult film. I'll bet most of you have seen it. It is NOT a joke. We were shown that film, for real. Totally man.

These days it's easy to look normal and be an addict. I guess that's where I'm coming from here. Went I went to NA years ago, nobody looked like me, had a job like mine, as my group was ALL streetwise folk, with life stories that scared the HELL out of me. I have never been homeless, I have never stolen to get my drug, never gone to the street to get it. Nada. Totally.

I'm a little worried that what I just wrote is going to offend somebody. Not intended. It's just that Timebuster really threw some cold water into my reality that I think needed to be thrown in there. I just share what I know, no more, no less.

FT

Actually, Timebuster, it kind of DOES describe me. You're right. Geez. Addict brain talking again. Naaaaaa, it wasn't that bad. Was it?

OutofIdeas75

I know I'll have urges. However, the lengths I have to go to just to obtain the crap is, to say the least, a circus. I have to deal with some pretty dirty people who are looking to scam me at every moment. It wouldn't seem like a big deal...find a few people who "farm" the pills that sell them at a 200% profit...but then they (and their "worker bees") end up running out of script appointments. Then, I'm left with calling dozens and dozens of people trying to find them...working out deals with a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend...being "taxed" all the way down the line.

After I get over the physical aspect, I think the task of obtaining them at all will be enough of a deterrent to returning to my cycles. Yes, I know that sounds flimsy as hell, and is probably just a lie I'm telling myself... However, I truly believe the only thing keeping me from being clean is going through the detox itself. I've done it a dozen times, but I am very aware of what happens when I go back into it. I go into it knowing another detox is just around the corner. Seeing as I no longer get a "high" (I won't do more than 7 at a time, for fear of respiratory arrest), the only point to dosing is to avoid the W/D... If I am over the W/D...there is no reason to dose.

I have learned my lesson. THAT is NOT an "addict brain trick". It's the solid frigging truth. I understand what it does and what the end result will be. Putting another one of those in my belly is just asking to go through detox again...and no pain med high is worth that.

Also, my new job requires a lot of travel (85%+), so finding a supplier in some random City/Country is not a guaranteed possibility. Even if I did, who is to say I would get the right amount to keep dosing during the entire project? If I were to start detoxing mid-project, I might as well say "Good bye" to my dream job. So...right now is the PERFECT time to do this. I have a small window of opportunity to just be DONE with it. I don't have any "replacement addictions" to lean on, as I have tried most and tired of them all (I don't do anything else but pain meds...no drinking, smoking or snorting here!). So, this is going to be new territory for me overall...a complete lifestyle change. I can't wait to be free from my "3 hour timer" hell. I can't wait to stop planning when I eat so I don't end up having to dose on a full stomach, ruining the potency of the dose. I can't wait to have normal bathroom abilities (not to be too personal or graphic, but I'm sure the majority here know about the rarity of a visit to the bathroom while on opiates).

Again, sorry for my lengthy posts... I type in excess of 120wpm burst...so it's easy for me to ramble on and on...