AV - Addictive Voice: Interested in discussing?
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Please GT, stop these cognitive semantics, I HAVE NOT made an AVRT Big Plan, as you allege. To me, it's bordering on bullying....you telling me what I mean, instead of accepting what I actually said. I made an AVRT Big Plan once and broke it - I will never make one again - and never change my mind, it would have no efficacy, my AV would crawl all over me. I am doing it differently this time, because words are important to me: why won't you accept that?
Please desist from applying pressure on me to agree, or conform, to the RR/AVRT party-line, and also alleging that I've followed it. This is beginning to feel like persecution.
Please desist from applying pressure on me to agree, or conform, to the RR/AVRT party-line, and also alleging that I've followed it. This is beginning to feel like persecution.
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Originally Posted by Fusion 
Please GT, stop these cognitive semantics, I HAVE NOT made an AVRT Big Plan, as you allege. To me, it's bordering on bullying....you telling me what I mean, instead of accepting what I actually said. I made an AVRT Big Plan once and broke it - I will never make one again - and never change my mind, it would have no efficacy, my AV would crawl all over me. I I am doing it differently this time, because words are important to me: why won't you accept that?
Please desist from applying pressure on me to agree, or conform, to the RR/AVRT party-line, and also alleging that I've followed it. This is beginning to feel like persecution.
Doesn’t “words being important” to you also mean “cognitive semantics” might be important?
Not The Way way, Just the way
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Fusion,
I’m trying to be very calm and factual about what’s going on here.
I think your post #101 was in response to Terminally Unique via msl999 and dwtbd’s posts #99 and #100, and had nothing to do with me.
Then I posted a response #102 to what I believed was a positive development in your recovery “I never drink now.” It makes absolutely no sense to me why I’m suddenly the bad guy.
GT
I’m trying to be very calm and factual about what’s going on here.
I think your post #101 was in response to Terminally Unique via msl999 and dwtbd’s posts #99 and #100, and had nothing to do with me.
Then I posted a response #102 to what I believed was a positive development in your recovery “I never drink now.” It makes absolutely no sense to me why I’m suddenly the bad guy.
GT
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine
Fusion,
I’m trying to be very calm and factual about what’s going on here.
I think your post #101 was in response to Terminally Unique via msl999 and dwtbd’s posts #99 and #100, and had nothing to do with me.
Then I posted a response #102 to what I believed was a positive development in your recovery “I never drink now.” It makes absolutely no sense to me why I’m suddenly the bad guy.
GT
I’m trying to be very calm and factual about what’s going on here.
I think your post #101 was in response to Terminally Unique via msl999 and dwtbd’s posts #99 and #100, and had nothing to do with me.
Then I posted a response #102 to what I believed was a positive development in your recovery “I never drink now.” It makes absolutely no sense to me why I’m suddenly the bad guy.
GT
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As far as what's allowed, I guess AVRT discussions are allowed in this subforum ( I am not that well-versed in the nuances of these particular subfora ) but I think if Fusion doesn't want to go down that rabbit hole and since it's his thread, we should be respectful of that, right?
Apparently this different forum is where AVRT is off-limits:
Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...overy-methods/
according to this link from the Admin:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rum-rules.html (Forum Rules)
Apparently this different forum is where AVRT is off-limits:
Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...overy-methods/
according to this link from the Admin:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rum-rules.html (Forum Rules)
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Guys
It is pretty hard not to discuss AVRT when the thread is about AV.
I personally really dislike the dynamic here - to which more than one person is contributing - But...there are no rules being broken.
I’m not closing the thread...but the thread really has become recursive.
If there’s someone who bothers you, use the ignore function...or just walk away and let.it.be.
Looks to me like that other forum might be useful for those of you who want to discuss things outside the AA/AVRT nexus.
I’d find other terms to use than AV tho, or any other turn of phrase associated with particular methods.
D
It is pretty hard not to discuss AVRT when the thread is about AV.
I personally really dislike the dynamic here - to which more than one person is contributing - But...there are no rules being broken.
I’m not closing the thread...but the thread really has become recursive.
If there’s someone who bothers you, use the ignore function...or just walk away and let.it.be.
Looks to me like that other forum might be useful for those of you who want to discuss things outside the AA/AVRT nexus.
I’d find other terms to use than AV tho, or any other turn of phrase associated with particular methods.
D
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Dee, the tenet AV is used throughout Newcomers, Alcoholism forums etc. Is the 'Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods', for AV references now?If so, I'm sorry, I didn't realise this Secular Connections forum is AVRT only. I understood that the Permanent Abstinence Based Recovery forum was for AVRT only, which is why I posted here, and didn't post there. I'm sorry.
Please would you lock this thread, it's really harmed me over the last few days, I've never suffered online 'bullying 'prior, I know that term is subjective, but that's how it felt to me. It's not pleasant, particularly on a help forum.
Please would you lock this thread, it's really harmed me over the last few days, I've never suffered online 'bullying 'prior, I know that term is subjective, but that's how it felt to me. It's not pleasant, particularly on a help forum.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by Fusion
Dee, the tenet AV is used throughout Newcomers, Alcoholism forums etc. Is the 'Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods', for AV references now?If so, I'm sorry, I didn't realise this Secular Connections forum is AVRT only. I understood that the Permanent Abstinence Based Recovery forum was for AVRT only, which is why I posted here, and didn't post there. I'm sorry.
Please would you lock this thread, it's really harmed me over the last few days, I've never suffered online 'bullying 'prior, I know that term is subjective, but that's how it felt to me. It's not pleasant, particularly on a help forum.
Please would you lock this thread, it's really harmed me over the last few days, I've never suffered online 'bullying 'prior, I know that term is subjective, but that's how it felt to me. It's not pleasant, particularly on a help forum.
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Originally Posted by Fusion
I'm sorry, I didn't realise this Secular Connections forum is AVRT only.
I'm really sorry that you have felt bullied in this thread. Please make use of the Ignore function.
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I can also chime in, not drinking now so my mind is pretty clear 
. Responding because I got a lot out of this thread and am quite grateful for some of the members who posted here, including GT and you, Fusion, for the opportunity to clarify a lot of things and share experiences, because I firmly believe the damn cravings are the reason I struggle with terminating my addiction, even if more commitment might make them less intense as some people suggest, but the cravings are real.
I agree with Dee overall. Also assumed, when I first posted on this thread, that it would be primarily about AVRT and I didn't mind as that's what I wanted to learn more about, but if that's now what you want, time to change direction indeed. I often use words like cravings or urges for the same thing we describe as the AV (as defined on the previous page), maybe use something like that to avoid drawing in the same kind of discussion? Could the title be changed perhaps?
Fusion, I think now you have made your view and interest very clear now, hopefully it won't be misunderstood again and you won't be/feel pressured. I guess part of it may be that you quite openly discussed your situation, struggles and liking of AVRT in the past and deeply engaged with that crowd (I just read the older long threads the other day for the first time), and later have become less expressive about your recovery and what you are doing, except saying at least on one other thread briefly that you struggled with drinking, but not much more follow up - I don't want to speak for GT, but I was also wondering, I think most of us do when someone makes hints but does not discuss it further. I think we all want everyone to succeed in the long run, and the topic of SR is certainly something we have strong feelings about, whether it's ongoing frustration or a sense of victory.
I think there is also frequently a lot of projection going on in online forums, like you pointed it out about me projecting on you a couple days ago (that was true at least in part) and people often don't recognize while projecting. We speak from our own personal, internal passion, often driven by what specific challenges we have had, and it's easy to project when we only know things about each-other via written text and text interpretation. Easy to infuse posts and posters with whatever, to assume things. It happens every now and then in the Newcomers forum as well. I just felt that way a bit today reading my recent thread, and the impulse is to get defensive, but I consciously decide not to and consider the suggestions instead, because everyone really means well and wants to help primarily. I think it generally helps, when something feels intrusive, not to react, not to become defensive - it'll stop then sooner.
In any case, I am interested in discussions about cravings, drinking urges, AV, whatever we call it. With full honesty, I did the best when I deeply engaged in the part of the SMART program focused on urges, including attending a weekly meeting where we discussed this topic specifically and learned tools to manage the urges. Do you struggle with urges/your AV these days, Fusion, or are just interested in a general discussion?
I often brought up SMART strategies as I like them, but there was never much response to it, for some reason the membership of SR does not have too many SMART fans even though the online meetings are very popular. It has a much more comprehensive section specifically about managing addictive urges than any other program I am aware of, and people generally encourage personalized approaches, also mix and match a lot. There are the Buddhism-inspired programs, I think we can view/practice those as secular as they focus on meditations, values and self-improvement and don't deal with anything esoteric. They talk a lot about craving there as well and place it in the framework of how Buddhism sees that as the cause of most human suffering. It's definitely causing all of my suffering and failures with recovery, I would only have simple normal daily challenges otherwise and it was so great last fall when my urges subsided to just weak, passing thoughts a few times a week.
I'm a bit torn right now whether it's useful or not to analyze the AV and trigger patterns - that was very helpful during the three months of great sobriety I had, using worksheets and exercises from SMART, they were also good distractions as I was dealing with that daily instead of ever allowing myself to start the wrong act, it even reinforced my motivation and determination. After relapse, I wanted to make it more simple, but I think it's fair to say that method has failed so far, whether it's because I'm doing it half-assed or it's not the right way for me after all. I can also honestly say that when I first decided to get sober last fall, it wasn't nearly as a struggle as more recently. The difference? Now I have too much free time, dropped scheduling my days and keeping it with a good discipline, just do whatever I want each day. But it feels less satisfying because I've lost the momentum and perspective for lasting sobriety, and of course the AV is louder because my brain reminds me that it wants something more rewarding, and it craves the fastest and strongest it knows. I think my desire for this addiction to be over is the same, except that last year I gained reinforcement from the success and feeling great. Now there is little healthy positive reinforcement recovery-wise as it hasn't been going well lately, but periodic drinking reinforces the addicted brain circuits and cravings it generates.
Just saw the request for closing. I also had a thread of mine closed about cravings, I felt discussing so much made mine worse in the end, so I can understand, but am a bit lost right now what would truly help me in practical reality other than not drinking ever again. I hope this will post before the thread is closed. Maybe open a new one with a new title then, and make clear in the OP what you are interested in? It might still get diverted as we easily get carried away with whatever interests/concerns us, sometimes it's just the way these things go. Maybe post it in Newcomers, that would also resolve your concern about privacy and likely would get more responses.
. Responding because I got a lot out of this thread and am quite grateful for some of the members who posted here, including GT and you, Fusion, for the opportunity to clarify a lot of things and share experiences, because I firmly believe the damn cravings are the reason I struggle with terminating my addiction, even if more commitment might make them less intense as some people suggest, but the cravings are real.I agree with Dee overall. Also assumed, when I first posted on this thread, that it would be primarily about AVRT and I didn't mind as that's what I wanted to learn more about, but if that's now what you want, time to change direction indeed. I often use words like cravings or urges for the same thing we describe as the AV (as defined on the previous page), maybe use something like that to avoid drawing in the same kind of discussion? Could the title be changed perhaps?
Fusion, I think now you have made your view and interest very clear now, hopefully it won't be misunderstood again and you won't be/feel pressured. I guess part of it may be that you quite openly discussed your situation, struggles and liking of AVRT in the past and deeply engaged with that crowd (I just read the older long threads the other day for the first time), and later have become less expressive about your recovery and what you are doing, except saying at least on one other thread briefly that you struggled with drinking, but not much more follow up - I don't want to speak for GT, but I was also wondering, I think most of us do when someone makes hints but does not discuss it further. I think we all want everyone to succeed in the long run, and the topic of SR is certainly something we have strong feelings about, whether it's ongoing frustration or a sense of victory.
I think there is also frequently a lot of projection going on in online forums, like you pointed it out about me projecting on you a couple days ago (that was true at least in part) and people often don't recognize while projecting. We speak from our own personal, internal passion, often driven by what specific challenges we have had, and it's easy to project when we only know things about each-other via written text and text interpretation. Easy to infuse posts and posters with whatever, to assume things. It happens every now and then in the Newcomers forum as well. I just felt that way a bit today reading my recent thread, and the impulse is to get defensive, but I consciously decide not to and consider the suggestions instead, because everyone really means well and wants to help primarily. I think it generally helps, when something feels intrusive, not to react, not to become defensive - it'll stop then sooner.
In any case, I am interested in discussions about cravings, drinking urges, AV, whatever we call it. With full honesty, I did the best when I deeply engaged in the part of the SMART program focused on urges, including attending a weekly meeting where we discussed this topic specifically and learned tools to manage the urges. Do you struggle with urges/your AV these days, Fusion, or are just interested in a general discussion?
I often brought up SMART strategies as I like them, but there was never much response to it, for some reason the membership of SR does not have too many SMART fans even though the online meetings are very popular. It has a much more comprehensive section specifically about managing addictive urges than any other program I am aware of, and people generally encourage personalized approaches, also mix and match a lot. There are the Buddhism-inspired programs, I think we can view/practice those as secular as they focus on meditations, values and self-improvement and don't deal with anything esoteric. They talk a lot about craving there as well and place it in the framework of how Buddhism sees that as the cause of most human suffering. It's definitely causing all of my suffering and failures with recovery, I would only have simple normal daily challenges otherwise and it was so great last fall when my urges subsided to just weak, passing thoughts a few times a week.
I'm a bit torn right now whether it's useful or not to analyze the AV and trigger patterns - that was very helpful during the three months of great sobriety I had, using worksheets and exercises from SMART, they were also good distractions as I was dealing with that daily instead of ever allowing myself to start the wrong act, it even reinforced my motivation and determination. After relapse, I wanted to make it more simple, but I think it's fair to say that method has failed so far, whether it's because I'm doing it half-assed or it's not the right way for me after all. I can also honestly say that when I first decided to get sober last fall, it wasn't nearly as a struggle as more recently. The difference? Now I have too much free time, dropped scheduling my days and keeping it with a good discipline, just do whatever I want each day. But it feels less satisfying because I've lost the momentum and perspective for lasting sobriety, and of course the AV is louder because my brain reminds me that it wants something more rewarding, and it craves the fastest and strongest it knows. I think my desire for this addiction to be over is the same, except that last year I gained reinforcement from the success and feeling great. Now there is little healthy positive reinforcement recovery-wise as it hasn't been going well lately, but periodic drinking reinforces the addicted brain circuits and cravings it generates.
Just saw the request for closing. I also had a thread of mine closed about cravings, I felt discussing so much made mine worse in the end, so I can understand, but am a bit lost right now what would truly help me in practical reality other than not drinking ever again. I hope this will post before the thread is closed. Maybe open a new one with a new title then, and make clear in the OP what you are interested in? It might still get diverted as we easily get carried away with whatever interests/concerns us, sometimes it's just the way these things go. Maybe post it in Newcomers, that would also resolve your concern about privacy and likely would get more responses.
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Dee, the tenet AV is used throughout Newcomers, Alcoholism forums etc. Is the 'Secular Exploration of Different Recovery Methods', for AV references now?If so, I'm sorry, I didn't realise this Secular Connections forum is AVRT only. I understood that the Permanent Abstinence Based Recovery forum was for AVRT only, which is why I posted here, and didn't post there. I'm sorry.
Please would you lock this thread, it's really harmed me over the last few days, I've never suffered online 'bullying 'prior, I know that term is subjective, but that's how it felt to me. It's not pleasant, particularly on a help forum.
Please would you lock this thread, it's really harmed me over the last few days, I've never suffered online 'bullying 'prior, I know that term is subjective, but that's how it felt to me. It's not pleasant, particularly on a help forum.
Yes the AV term is used quite extensively and very loosely in other forums - so are other phrases like one day at a time, but these - the Secular forums - are a specific space for secular methods discussion.
It wouldn't be fair to use the term AV in the Secular Exploration forum and then bar AVRTers from discussion, so if threads start there I'd expect people to use a little imagination and find other terms or ideas
so that's the Secular Exp[loration forum.
12 step and AVRT is off topic there.
In this particular forum - the Secular connections forum - we're open to all secular methods.
There are no barriers to people posting, outside of the rule on no 12 step discussion.
It would be unfair to stop AVRTers posting in a thread like this
But...I'm sorry you feel bullied.
Personally I think its common courtesy to quit when someone asks you to, but there's no rule on that - that's way too subjective for us to get involved in as Mods/Admin.
One persons harrassment is anothers genuine desire to explain a method 'by the book'.
I dislike the style of discourse this thread devolved into but I don't think only one member was an active party in this situation.
You guys as adults should be able sort it out by discussion, or by leaving the thread or using the ignore function.
In the end one party or the other has to quit even if just to say 'ok whatever, kthanksbye'
I hate to close the thread but I think it's going to be hard to go back into a meaning discussion after this, so thread closed.
It can be re opened at a later date if you change your mind Fusion.
Maybe post it in Newcomers, that would also resolve your concern about privacy and likely would get more responses.
I've spent enough time on this, guys.
Dee
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