GerandTwine

38 minutes about AVRT, the Beast, the AV, the structural model, the Big Plan

Link ^^^^

Aellyce

Dusty - I felt similarly about the book >5 years ago, when I first read it. The tone and somewhat outdated radicalism is indeed a bit unfortunate for readers these days, as we don't really relate to the heat against the "recovery culture" as much as people in the 1990's might have, and the general knowledge about some things have changed/progressed. Since you have the book, it might still be worth reading the parts that focus on practical tips for the Big Plan and AVRT, I think those sections contain less of the language that might annoy you.

I continued drinking for another several years until last fall, when I finally had real determination to seriously do something about my alcohol addiction. I re-read the book a couple months ago and had a very different experience with it, I think in a large part because I got into it with a mind very tunneled into looking for simple and elegant solutions, after unnecessarily (for me) over-complicating it for many years. Not saying this is the case for you, but I really think that mostly my AV came up with those criticisms a few years back, to dismiss something very useful on the basis of what I would now consider pretty irrelevant in the larger picture and context of my goal: to stay sober permanently. In my case, I now think those criticisms were mostly distractions my AV threw at me to dismiss the method altogether - a method that is otherwise quite compatible with my better self and personality, even if I don't agree with every single detail and perception.

This time reading, I didn't even feel the annoyance at all because I could understand where the author came from, his experience at the time it was written, and I wanted to focus on the real substance, not the fluff and what's irrelevant to me here and now. I have the same attitude toward the style of people discussing any method I detect as potentially helpful - don't care about the presentation, I want to extract and apply what's useful for me and not let anything get in the way. Content, not personalities. Maybe it's relatively easy for me as it is often my orientation to any content and discussion I find worthy of attention (also here on SR), I find it easy to detach from the people, attitudes, even small inconsistencies and inaccuracies for the sake of focusing on useful information... not sure how much it interferes for others. I will never become a hardcore "AVRT evangelist" but it's been one of the most useful methods during the past months, it actually works, and I even want to use the method for resolving other disruptive habits. But if you find the discussions here on SR and the Crash Course are enough for you, even better!

Fusion

Yes, he does, but perhaps it was fuelled by the era and place within which it was written. His concept that an individual was able to end their own addiction, not by treatment, but by a utilising the conscious central locus of control, self-awareness, self-actualisation, it would be named now: was revolutionary! I guess it was his intention in the first section of the book, to de-program readers who had exposure to the prevalent treatments, who believed they had no power over their mind that generated alcohol seeking thoughts, feelings and images.

Amy Johnson, in her 'Little Book of Big Change', credits Jack Trimpey when she describes the the AV. She has a website with free reading material. She doesn't distinguish between the focus of addiction (alcohol, food, unwanted thoughts, texts etc.) because she believes they arise from the same parts of the brain, the learning/addiction mechanism, and the consequent AV.

dustyfox

Thanks for the link GT is was useful, it hammered home the message, and explained very clearly how it works, I will listen again tomorrow.
Aellyce I will continue with the book and try to overlook the dated over the top radical tone.
I am totally committed to my decision never to drink again, and oddly reading the book made me feel weaker in this decision rather than stronger just because rather superficially I don't like the man's writing style! I suppose, Fusion as I have never been to any meetings or tried any treatment, all that was rather lost on me.
The one thing I am not sure is correct is dismissing the possibility of peer support helping in recovery - I am finding my daily check in here to this forum very helpful, it keeps my eye on the ball, and makes me feel good even when I am suffering physical withdrawal symptoms. That's surely a good thing and strengthens commitment?

GerandTwine

It’s not really “odd” as the AV will use anything within you to try to weaken your Big Plan, such as “Now you have a “weaker” “total commitment”” (as if that were even possible).
Here, you have no “learned helplessness” to unlearn. Much of the book is about unlearning that learned helplessness that is endemic to many social institutions serving substance abusers that make recovery a group process, believing it cannot be done alone; or even once and for all time.
Here, you have made contact with a simple learned Technique of RE-cognition of your Addictive Voice, and its quick process of leading one to the pledge of permanent abstinence. This is a learned willfulness; becoming abstinent the way most people do on their own; not a learned helplessness. I believe there’s a difference between using SR to build good firewalls around the willfulness of the Big Plan and using SR to build a support network because you might come to believe you can’t keep from drinking all by yourself.

Fusion

Hi DustyFox, GT provided a purely AVRT stance in the latter part of his final sentence, in the post 67. I do like his 'firewall' reference in the first part of that sentence. My view is that we are individuals, and if you find something helpful and strengthening to your commitment, then following your inner wisdom would be, well, wise.

On the question of peer support, I believe that support/guidance whilst learning AVRT, or building one's own self-development regime, is beneficial. I understand Jack Trimpey's rationale for abandoning AVRT meetings, but I feel it was counter-productive, and instead stifled the growth of his belief in self-recovery. I don't understand why a period of instruction on the technique would be deemed damaging, for me, it would be quite the opposite.

GerandTwine

Hi F,
This is like saying, support/guidance whilst learning how to ride a bicycle, OR building a bicycle-making factory, is beneficial. You can easily see the massive differences in the two goals that have nothing to do with each other.
There never were any AVRT meetings. Before AVRT was created by Trimpey, all those RR meetings were RET meetings based on Albert Ellis’s philosophy of counseling. When AVRT was created those meetings were cancelled as being obvious breeding ground for the Addictive Voice.
The growth of whatever Trimpey’s belief system is has nothing to do with the fact that self-recovery is the “silent majority” of all recoveries completed by people all around the globe.
You’ve understood AVRT for over five years. Are you using it? Have you made your Big Plan?
GT

Aellyce

Amy Johnson draws a lot from various kinds of Eastern spiritual traditions (Buddhism, Taoism etc), I think. I was quite into those things for a good while in my 30s (still am in some ways, e.g. in meditation practice) and they played a big role in a certain phase of my personal development, independently of addiction/recovery. I listened to some talks by Amy but, for me, it took a lot of forcing to get to the end because I felt she dilutes her message a lot, may be just my taste. I liked her writing (what I read on the web) better, more concise. Where does she reference the AV specifically, Fusion? How is The Little Book of Big Change, is it worth reading, is there anything useful/new/different in it for someone who is already quite familiar with most recovery approaches? Downloaded it a while ago (can get a free copy online) but I always have so many things to read, never felt interested enough to start.

dustyfox

GT you are a purist! I mean that as a compliment! You do not deviate one iota from the pure AVRT/RR ideology. (Perhaps ideology is the wrong concept, but in a way it can be seen as one as it does present a world view). I like your purist approach as it keeps AVRT undiluted and purposeful. I am taking from it all I need and I have found it totally suits me - I will never drink again, I will never change my mind, but in the course of the last couple of weeks, I have become interested in learning about addition as I have never had the opportunity to talk to anyone at all about addiction - and it has come as rather a relief to listen to others here. I don't see this as harmful or damaging. I hear the AV in many posts and it is helpful because it's good practice for me to get better an hearing it, whereas before I would not have been so ready to accept it as the AV.
I do agree with Fusion " I don't understand why a period of instruction on the technique would be deemed damaging, for me, it would be quite the opposite." - I have found all the instruction so far immensely beneficial. The book, at the moment is for me a red herring, I will have another look at it, but whether I read it or not it wont change my commitment to abstinence.

GerandTwine

It sounds like you’ve got a great handle on using the Technique. Go for it.
Be aware, that eventually, when you have forgotten what it used to feel like to be under the influence of any amount of alcohol, the ONLY reason you will still remain abstinent is simply because you made the pledge, NOT because you need to recall all the bad things that happened while drunk long ago, because you don’t need any of those memories.

GerandTwine

To a chemically dependent person who is managing their dependency within human society, YES, Addictive Voice Recognition Technique DOES present a sort of “world view.” A very dangerous “world view” changer. The management of a chemical dependency can become a HUGE task for a human being within society who is trying to keep that cycle going. I know someone who vapes THC regularly and appears to function successfully in society to everyone. But their partner sees the cycle and is ambivalent about that dependency because it becomes a dynamic part of their intimate relationship. AVRT offers a way to END that person’s “world view.”

To someone who finally wants to end a chemical dependency but finds themselves using against their better judgement (definition of addicted); for that person AVRT becomes an amazingly potent tool laid out as a manual for how to secure the pledge of abstinence, how to make that as easy as possible. That is Trimpey’s great contribution to repopularizing the pledge of permanent abstinence in the western world. To an addict AVRT is not a “world view”. It is a direct path out of an unwanted “world view” of an addict.

To someone who has completed their recovery by making a pledge of permanent abstinence (with or without having used AVRT) AVRT quickly becomes an “almost nothing” within their life. I had a skin graft over a small injury decades ago. Thinking about that graft is like my thinking about AVRT and it resulting pledge. It is an “almost nothing” in my daily life. That amazingly potent event of acquiring both was very important - because - they then each became an “almost nothing” as I continued forward for the rest of my life.

My being here on SR is an unusual altruistic donation on my part having nothing to do with my long past recovery. Before joining here I had gone for decades with spending virtually no time at all on AVRT and still have only used it once for a few minutes for myself when I ran out of a prescription of hydrocodone.

To a chemically dependent person. AVRT is a dangerous “world view”
To an addicted person, AVRT is “an amazingly unique and potent tool” for a quick and complete recovery
To anyone who has pledged permanent abstinence AVRT is an “almost nothing”.
How big a part of my life is my NOT ever drinking alcohol?
I spent NO money on not drinking.
I spent NO time on not drinking.
I spent NO energy on not drinking.

Fusion

Hi DustyFox, I read the six-part thread on AVRT started by Algorithm, then ordered the book. I found the six-part thread more informative on the technique, Algorithm's posts were intelligently succinct.

The book was for me, a disappointment. I wanted details of neuro-biology behind the birth of the Beast/AV and an action plan to rebuild myself post drinking. Instead I received a book which contained parts aimed at discrediting other recovery methods; discrediting 'me-the-drinker' in the family section and setting out how to deal with the Beast if it returned! The mere mention of the Beast returning, paved the way for a caveat, in that the Big Plan maybe, not final.

There was mention a couple of years ago, on the AVRT website that a new, revised and updated book was to be published. That reference disappeared and now the website is parked at GoDaddy. This is regrettable, because AVRT was the creator of the skill of AV recognition, that so many SR members use everyday, without knowing its source. I do wish that Jack Trimpey had passed the baton on.

Fusion

I agree. In fact many people I follow, I'm unfollowing, because they're no longer writing articles, just webinars, podcasts, videos....with so much fluff in them. I don't appreciate listening to 30 minutes, when the material could be condensed into a few minute read!

Aellyce, Amy does specifically reference the AV and credits Jack Trimpey with the concept. At the time I read it, it was enlightening, but on reflection now, it just sets out in straightforward terms, the habit/learning sub-conscious programming of the human's brain programming. I particularly liked how she doesn't differentiate between 'addictions' and create a monster for alcohol/drugs, i'e. that constantly checking social media can be an addition, and that was something I hadn't encountered prior. From memory she also refers to a 'Universal Mind' which at the time I found esoteric, but not so sure now.

I listened to a Dr. Joe Dispenza talk and he touched upon addiction and consequent laying down of new programming in the brain; and how ceasing to imbibe/engage in the addiction subject, would create 'reactions' in the brain, which lead to a 'voice' demanding that the drug/habit be indulged in again....in other words - the AV!

biminiblue

Fusion, I would say that AVRT is available to all, regardless of whether or not they ever hear/read about it.

I bought a different car, I don't think wistfully about the old one. I've moved on.
I left a marriage, I was Done. It was hard, but it was the right thing.
I quit all my prescription drugs. Done.
Quit that job that was sucking the life out of me. Finished.
Stopped dwelling on negative thoughts. Over it.
Quit drinking, DONE.


I think people quit things all the time. To me, alcohol is one of those things. If something is causing me problems, it seems the thing to do with it is change it.

AVRT simply verbalizes what I've known all along, and use every day.

The Power has always been there.

Do or do not, there is no try.

Aellyce

I definitely support views and approaches implying that many/all addiction-like problems (and obsessions) have the same mechanics. Tons of direct scientific evidence for it also these days. Why people sometimes recover from one addiction and trade it with another even before they notice, why simple things like eating can alleviate cravings for alcohol etc etc. It's a good thing because we don't need to look for completely different solutions to these issues, I think it's very common that people develop more than one throughout their lives. AVRT is definitely the simplest and if it works well for someone, I think it's quite lucky. Still, many of us go through tons of much more complicated "seeking" before arriving to an effective and relatively simple solution, including myself... we can say all that is AV, or just human nature.

For example (and this will be a message for Dustyfox and others re using recovery communities), I've recently read those old AVRT threads here in the Secular section from around 2015 and I really wondered where I had been at the time? Why I never read and participated in those - me, who signed up in 2010 and started posting a lot in 2014, not shy of engaging and expressing myself at all? Me, who always likes interesting and intellectually-fueled discussions, even debates? Why I largely dismissed (maybe more procrastinated using) the very recovery tools that could really make a difference for me, such as SMART and AVRT, until last year? Instead, I participated in countless long and complex discussions here on SR, many of which had little to do with getting sober and recovery directly, it was more looking for a social venue with some qualities I like, but not focused on recovery. It is so obvious now and easy to answer: I was never ready, never really wanted to stay sober long, never had any true commitment to it until the last few months, when I basically just took these things out of the closet and finally started using them quite easily. But all those years of participation in SR - what was that about? Learning, for sure, but also tons of distraction from what I would have needed to do if I had wanted to use this resource primarily for its intended purpose. I repeatedly, habitually engaged in ways that were not only unproductive for me but turned into another behavior that interfered with my more worthwhile goals, and was very addiction-like by itself. Engaged more deeply with some of the wrong individuals even, in ways that did not have perspective and merely provided yet another form of instant gratification via mental stimulation, never even lasting beyond a few weeks max.

I talked about this on various threads and do again here now, because I think it relates to the question about the usefulness of recovery communities. I would never blame my unproductive years on the nature or administration of recovery culture/communities though, it was my own choice alone, even if driven by certain kinds of predispositions. These resources can definitely be useful in many ways, but it's good to keep an eye on how we use them and be honest about our motives before it turns into another issue, mired with ambivalence, that has to be tackled and resolved, like in my case. Many people don't have any similar issue as far as I can see and don't experience these things as distractions, and if that's truly the case, it's great. But I like to share this because I was so blind to it for a while, and it interfered with giving a real chance for recovery to myself. Now I try to question every day when I am on here: is this really useful? Does it serve my goal? Still often find myself playing with red herrings, but the awareness and not letting what I feel as distractions progress far help a lot, it's much more balanced and goal-oriented now.

Aellyce

Oh, for anyone interested in the neurobiology of addiction and the brain - don't look in Jack Trimpey's work for that, or in spiritual traditions. Just google about the neuroscience of addiction (neuroepigenetics is particularly relevant) from the last ~10 years - it's complex but there is tons of great stuff also for lay audiences. I don't crave that knowledge because I have been doing that research for >10 years for living, immersed in it everyday, and while it didn't get me sober, the knowledge has been very helpful especially now that I'm serious about recovery. There is really nothing mysterious, baffling and even irrational about addiction and the difficult struggles to overcome it anymore if someone wants explanations. I think I would feel much more disturbed without that information because the first-hand experience indeed often does not seem to make sense... but in combination with the objective stuff it does (and I find it comforting) when you know how it works.

GerandTwine

Hi F,
Terminally Unique started the AVRT threads in 2011. Algorithm came around later and was also a great AVRT teacher.
Habituated pleasure seeking is not a mystery. It’s how life stays alive. When people go on hunger strikes, they don’t usually seek out academic papers on the neuro-biology of hunger. And Trimpey would never impose upon people how to get on with life after learning and using AVRT. That would all be AV clutter.
It cannot be said too many times that learned helplessness is a primary goal of the Addictive Voice. “You cannot quit drinking forever by yourself” Your AV says. There’s no good reason to not point that out. Look at the subtitle on the cover of the book.
If I were not to have “discredited ‘me-the-drinker’” all on my own, I would never have quit drinking. The axis of personal morality takes a major role in the beginning of AVRT. “the Beast if it returned”? It never left! AVRT renders IT harmless. I think your talking about the family dealing with “my drinking if it returned.”
Again, I think you mean “the mere mention of me drinking returning” blah blah blah. The family has no idea whether you really made a Big Plan. Trust returns at the pace of the truster. In the same vein it is also true that it is impossible for YOU to NOT know whether actually made a Big Plan.
AVRT is a no-frills way to end an addiction all by yourself. In his last book Trimpey calls it The Art of AVRT; part of the lore of self-recovery. Reread Biminiblue’s first sentence in their post above.
GT

GerandTwine

Here you go Fusion! Now your talkin! Remember, learning AVRT is like reading a users manual for an appliance - that appliance is The Residuals following YOUR termination of a misplaced habituated pleasure seeking.

If you haven’t terminated your addiction yet, then you’re simply poking around at AVRT as a threat to your “world view” of repeatedly mitigating the bad consequences of drinking over and over again. But even poking around at the surface of Addictive Voice Recognition Technique could eventually get you somewhere better than where you may be now.

Aellyce

I think we all have our own respective learning styles and preferences, and I think it's a good idea to take these individual tastes into account when it comes to how we obtain information and inspiration. For example, I'm smiling to myself reading the last several posts here, because I personally find Trimpey a pretty good writer and got much more out of New Cure book (second time reading, when my AV didn't interfere with my reading so much) than from any other AVRT sources, including this forum. For me, his text describing all the concepts and practical aspects of the method is very clear and super easy to comprehend, didn't need to read anything multiple times or wonder much what he meant. My personal favorite in the book is when he talks about the different kinds of Beast Attacks - the most helpful ever for me, when I deal with all the tricks of my AV, which is really a masterful manipulator and trickster and can invade my mind like nothing and no one else I've ever encountered! Especially the type of "attack" he describes as Vertigo - I experienced that virtually every single day during my first month sober, that's what I constantly complained about as incredibly disturbing cravings. What truly made the difference, relative to similar states in the past, was that (speaking in AVRT language) "I" was present during them, with my commitment and determination, while in the past I would just drop the lead and merge with the Beast/AV, even if I had countless transient moments of clarity.

I even found most of the sections on the larger social context, history and state of the recovery industry back in the 1990's (a lot still applies IMO) interesting, but I have my own professional interest in all this, so that might be why. I could easily ignore his particular passion on second reading recently when I disagreed with it, didn't find it relatable here and now, and even found his style and form of cynicism amusing at places. The long threads on SR are interesting and richer, but were not as useful for me as a solid source, to learn how to do it. For me, they are a bit too complicated, subjective, with too much irrelevant tracks to get the point and basics. But it was SR where I first heard of RR many years ago, so definitely not to be discredited as the first pointer. I also agree with others that the SR threads on AVRT are great to see the myriads of personal interpretations (and AV-driven doubts and criticisms) of the method. I think it also reflects nicely what Trimpey says in the book, that AVRT is as old as the human species, and people naturally discover versions of the strategy on their own to recover... or tweak it on their own while using (like me). I'm now reading another book by Trimpey, an earlier one focusing on overeating. I haven't had any issues with eating for two decades now but am curious and also want to learn a particular strategy from it about dealing with excessive behaviors/preoccupations where the "substance" cannot easily be completely eliminated from our lives, like food (thanks to GT for pointing my attention to it on another thread). I find the language similarly clear, comprehensible, even entertaining. So... to each their own .

Another aspect of the "recovery culture" and communities that I find useful to keep in mind is that it's far from being free of the usual power structures/games and people's striving/fighting for authority and influence. Including the SR forum - in fact, one aspect of online forums I enjoy the most is observing how this works in a "safe" microcosm (the forum and its membership), without having to take any risk or even having to integrate into it much when I don't want to. I think it's also generally helpful not to fall prey to mere personalities and styles (e.g. what may sometimes seem charismatic but lacks real competency) in recovery communities... and everywhere really. I think the good old cliche works well: take what is useful and leave the rest. No need to put down or try to kill something that does not seem useful, it only generates resentments...just move on. Such an attitude can also only enhance recovery from an addiction IMO, via reinforcing independence and autonomy.

Fusion

GT, thank you for asking about me. I have terminated my addiction, by stopping drinking. I'm now 'poking around' at raising my level of 'being', by living/thinking/experiencing my 'true/authentic/higher self" - the very same self that notices and dismisses the AV - the AV that is not me, but my addicted/programmed brain.