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AV - Addictive Voice: Interested in discussing?

Old 04-06-2021, 02:59 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aellyce2 View Post
Yes. That's the book most of us are usually discussing here. The author also wrote another one earlier called The Small Book (I believe the title contains a bit of sarcasm ), but the one you cited is more comprehensive and came out a bit later. You can download a free copy online.
I went ahead and bought the book too. Been reading it the last 2 evenings. All the free downloads I found had pages missing, plus I like to read in bed and the blue light from an electronic devices screen messes up my sleep patterns.

Should have read it years ago. In 2003 or so, I just did the Crash Course on the web page, made a Big Plan and quit for 3 years, 7 months. Then that 4th year I got half assed and allowed a dialogue with my AV instead of shutting it down like I had always done before...What a dumbass!
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Old 04-06-2021, 03:41 PM
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Just an aside. For those who don't mind reading e-books, perfectly complete free, decent quality, I believe scanned versions of the RR book are available via Library Genesis (one of my favorite places on the web to get all sorts of books, BTW). They can also be loaded into a book-reading app and read much like any e-book.

JustJohn - in the last ~10 years I read much more electronically than paper books, but the blue light was an issue definitely in the past. I kinda resolved it by downloading programs on my devices (laptops and phone) that changes your device's light system and tries to mimic the natural circadian cycles. There are different such softwares available for free on the web and I definitely find them helpful. First I thought I would not like staring at an orangey screen at night, but it never bothered me, felt natural from start.

Hope this post does not count as advertising, I just love the ability to do so much of my reading and have my book collections electronically. I go at great lengths to optimize it .
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:11 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JustJohn View Post
In 2003 or so, I just did the Crash Course on the web page, made a Big Plan and quit for 3 years, 7 months. Then that 4th year I got half assed and allowed a dialogue with my AV instead of shutting it down like I had always done before...What a dumbass!
The Big Plan does not have a 4th year clause that says “go ahead and drink some more if you get half assed about permanent abstinence”. What you had was a stop-for-a-while-plan. You can only make a Big Plan once in your life due to the obvious reason of logic. But you can still make a Big Plan any time you want. It only takes around one minute.

Following the making of a Big Plan, dialogue with your AV can never lead to drinking. It is just a form of “shifting” back and forth between YOU and IT. YOU talking at IT. If you have made a Big Plan you cannot fail to RE-cognize your AV every time before alcohol makes its way into a cup in your hand that you would pour into your mouth.

Occasionally, over the decades, I have held glasses of alcoholic beverages to hand to other people. Those occasions were completely insignificant to me. I cannot quite remember when or where they happened.

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Old 04-08-2021, 08:25 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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Just to post something positive: I feel very comfortable using AVRT now and like it much better than juggling all sorts of different methods, attending meetings, thinking and talking about my urges too much etc. Have all the time to enjoy my freedom and normal life stuff, only need to deal with the AV sometimes internally. Quite a few people here on SR suggested simplicity to me, and I think I'm really getting the hang of it now and it does feel like the best approach for me. Still a lot of AV chatter overall, but I don't expect that to vanish anytime soon. I like looking forward, it's also my natural tendency. Just wish I had arrived at this state earlier, but oh well.
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Old 04-08-2021, 07:01 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Aellyce
You only quit once, the trick is allowing yourself to enjoy it.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:25 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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I've been thinking about something during the past few days on and off, as I observe the patterns and qualities of my AV, and thought to post about it here. I'm sure it has already been mentioned before on some of those complex past AVRT threads because it's so obvious, but maybe interesting to bring up here and now. One feature that really stands out in how my Beast/AV works is how it completely lacks any long-term consideration and vision. People often say we should live in the present because that's all we truly have, and learn how to live in the moment if we haven't done so... but this was definitely a double-edged sword for me in the past. By nature, I tend to be someone who loves looking at the larger picture in everything, I like forward vision and planning, even thinking about predicting future trends - a lot of my profession involves these even, and the past alcoholism affected those abilities (maybe more the willingness) a lot.

I did realize (was also told by a few others) many years ago that I should focus on and learn to live in the moment more, because somehow my default is so future-oriented (I recall being like that even as a child), and I often lost the spark of the momentum when younger, sometimes didn't know how to enjoy the moment. Well, developing the alcohol addiction definitely changed that, but obviously not in good ways... although I must say I've learned from it, learned about how to focus and stay in the present more, what internal motivations to use for it. Of course the sober version is infinitely better . I think one of the ways my Beast/AV is in such stark contrast with my sober self that can make good decisions is this orientation to very strictly present vs. longer-range, forward thinking. My addicted part is definitely severely myopic, which is so alien for the rest of me that is not impulsive at all... well, at least emotionally and cognitively (do need eye glasses to correct literal vision). I find this interesting given how what we call the Beast grows out of the part of the brain that normally serves survival... just another indication how degenerate it becomes in the context of our drug / addictive behavior of choice.

In any case, don't know if others have felt a similar very strong contrast. It actually helps me now in practicing AVRT, because I recognize this "myopic" feature and the contrast instantly and very easily, often very early when it pulls me in a wrong direction, not only in situations that may present danger to my sobriety, but also other habits that mostly just waste my time.
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Old 05-16-2021, 05:10 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Living in the present is not the same as having no regard for the future.

I acted impulsively as a drinker having absolutely no thought for tomorrow, or for consequences.

As you say Aellyce, thats pretty much addiction encapsulated.

D
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Old 05-17-2021, 06:20 AM
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Plans, goals, great endeavors don't take place in a day. They can't be done without an eye for the future. This seems especially true in recovery. This is how humans progress. The Big Plan in AVRT is all about the future. My plan was all about my future. A plan has no meaning without the future. There is probably a happy medium somewhere that even includes the past, along with the present and future.

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Old 05-17-2021, 06:38 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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I realized that the stuff I posted yesterday was incredibly banal. As Dee said, the destructive impulsiveness is the most basic feature of addiction... and I write about it as if it's some great insight .

DriGuy - I think a happy medium is pretty easy to come up with. Remember and use what can be learned from the past (without dwelling on it too much and letting it cause any more damage), enjoy the sober days and fill them with healthy and meaningful activities, and realize whatever dreams and goals we have in the remainder of our lives. Specifics to be filled in individually. I think aging also helps to find a better balance in these things, for me at least, although if course it keeps cutting the future part. The AV will likely always be part of all this but if it stays exclusively mental in the present and future domains, can do no more harm.
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Old 05-17-2021, 02:04 PM
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I didn’t think it was banal - fundamental would be a more fitting term

D
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Old 05-19-2021, 11:42 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aellyce View Post
I think one of the ways my Beast/AV is in such stark contrast with my sober self that can make good decisions is this orientation to very strictly present vs. longer-range, forward thinking. My addicted part is definitely severely myopic, which is so alien for the rest of me that is not impulsive at all...

I find this interesting given how what we call the Beast grows out of the part of the brain that normally serves survival...
I agree it's fundamental. It's the ambivalence. My Beast/AV/Voice of Addiction is solely interested in survival NOW, and damn the future, doesn't care if I drink to excess today, risk my life and prejudice my future/tomorrows. I call it my Instant Gratification Monster.

Whereas, the future planner, I call it my Pre-frontal cortex and associated brain parts, is interested in my well-being today, and survival in the future, for which it forward plans. The longer I dwell on this issue, the more I believe it boils down to the 'which do you feed' concept. The future planner me, must be nourished, so that the Instant Gratification Monster is starved.

A Carpe Diem power grab - for my future wellbeing.


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Old 05-21-2021, 10:17 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
I agree it's fundamental. It's the ambivalence. My Beast/AV/Voice of Addiction is solely interested in survival NOW, and damn the future, doesn't care if I drink to excess today, risk my life and prejudice my future/tomorrows. I call it my Instant Gratification Monster.

Whereas, the future planner, I call it my Pre-frontal cortex and associated brain parts, is interested in my well-being today, and survival in the future, for which it forward plans. The longer I dwell on this issue, the more I believe it boils down to the 'which do you feed' concept. The future planner me, must be nourished, so that the Instant Gratification Monster is starved.

A Carpe Diem power grab - for my future wellbeing.
Hi F,

Your requirement on creating and feeding “the future planner” in order to keep alcohol out of your mouth is actually your Addictive Voice. You can still draw that “line in the sand” by promising yourself “I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind.” any ole time you want. I know you have made other “plans” in the past. But I know you can still make the BIG one, too. The BIG plan is not dependent upon anything else.

The Beast knows everything YOU know and IT feels everything YOU feel. Even though IT is SINGLE-MINDED, IT is not stupid. It understands waiting, and can use what IT knows are your beliefs and traits against you.

GT
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Old 05-21-2021, 01:39 PM
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Thank you, GT. Or a "line in the wet concrete?" 😎.
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Old 05-21-2021, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hi F,
The Beast knows everything YOU know and IT feels everything YOU feel. Even though IT is SINGLE-MINDED, IT is not stupid. It understands waiting, and can use what IT knows are your beliefs and traits against you.
GT
I am just wondering - if the BEAST knows me - and feels everything I feel - does it follow that if I know the BEAST and everything he feels, his weakness, his beliefs, - because if I do, then would it follow he will never succeed ? Is it about self knowledge and denying the false self in favour of the true self?
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Old 05-21-2021, 06:48 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Just to butt in, not answering for anyone else. But I’d say that parsing gives the Beast too much credit so to speak. Imbues It with too much gravitas and even too much substance.

The only way the Beast ‘succedes’ is as a parasite influencing a host . The desire for alcohol hijacks the ‘operating system’ of the totality of the complex system we call humans, yeah ?

The Beast isn’t in the same category as a ‘self’ , it isn’t a contest between equals , a negative self as opposed to a true self . Self’s are ‘bigger’ than desires and drives.

Beast as entity isn’t complex in any manner , it is simply the desire for more alcohol. The interactions between the truer self or higher brain functions and the ‘lower’ or more base impulse functions are more complex and reside in a bigger ‘space’.

AVRT exposes the true power dynamic and reestablishes the proper hierarchy.
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:08 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dustyfox
I am just wondering - if the BEAST knows me - and feels everything I feel - does it follow that if I know the BEAST and everything he feels, his weakness, his beliefs, - because if I do, then would it follow he will never succeed ? Is it about self knowledge and denying the false self in favour of the true self?


The Beast of AVRT, by definition, is and always has been a quadriplegic. IT has no control over your voluntary muscles. And IT has only ONE “belief”. IT must get you to drink again using ITs Addictive Voice against YOUR recent change of heart about drinking some more and especially to persuade you to go against your Big Plan. IT must get you to believe you really didn’t mean I will never drink again. IT will do everything in its power to get you to take possession of doubt over your Big Plan including using what others might say against your ability to succeed at that plan.
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Old 05-22-2021, 08:39 AM
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''Beast as entity isn’t complex in any manner , it is simply the desire for more alcohol. '' said dwtbd
Is it though?
Interesting discussion - and I wonder - Isn't the desire for more alcohol more complex than just the 'desire for more alcohol' - isn't also a desire to 'escape from something', to 'block something out', to 'avoid something', to 'deny something', to obliterate the true self because by consuming alcohol there is no need to have to listen to the true self, the big plan or whatever it might be called.
I agree the BEAST is a parasite but it isn't it more psychologically complex, more nuanced - somewhere back in the mists of all our times, there was a time where we had no beast - or do we we think the beast is always there in everyone but in many it never wakes - 0r was there BB ( before beast) and if there was how did it enter in the first place - is there an AB ( after Beast) I don't believe so as once he is known he cannot therefore be unknown. - I think it is perhaps to to simple to think in binary opposites like Beast and True self or whatever but it is helpful in , for me, early days where I need a strong message for myself.
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Old 05-22-2021, 09:15 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Escaping , avoiding , blocking and denying the four horsemen of the existential angst apocalypse, eh ?

The binary aspect in ending an addiction is the decision, in AVRT making a Big Plan, deciding to never again ingest a particular substance and simultaneously decide to never change your mind about the decision.

I see recovery as an event , the making of a Big Plan.

Enduring , navigating, understanding , enjoying , overcoming , being purposeful, peaceful ect in the midst of the (my) human condition is a much broader ‘thing’ , and once freed of the ambivalence of addictive consumption the illusion of panacea as the experience of intoxication is less ‘tainted’ by AV.
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Old 05-22-2021, 09:36 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dustyfox View Post
''Beast as entity isn’t complex in any manner , it is simply the desire for more alcohol. '' said dwtbd
Is it though?
Interesting discussion - and I wonder - Isn't the desire for more alcohol more complex than just the 'desire for more alcohol' - isn't also a desire to 'escape from something', to 'block something out', to 'avoid something', to 'deny something', to obliterate the true self because by consuming alcohol there is no need to have to listen to the true self, the big plan or whatever it might be called.
I agree the BEAST is a parasite but it isn't it more psychologically complex, more nuanced - somewhere back in the mists of all our times, there was a time where we had no beast - or do we we think the beast is always there in everyone but in many it never wakes - 0r was there BB ( before beast) and if there was how did it enter in the first place - is there an AB ( after Beast) I don't believe so as once he is known he cannot therefore be unknown. - I think it is perhaps to to simple to think in binary opposites like Beast and True self or whatever but it is helpful in , for me, early days where I need a strong message for myself.
Good questions. AVRT has created a definition for the Beast of AVRT for a specific reason. The only solution being sought is not just to NOT drink, it is to NEVER drink AGAIN. Other psychological issues are completely extraneous to whether someone can decide to NEVER drink again. I KNOW that for myself, and anyone using AVRT must come to know that, too, because ANYTHING contrary to that knowledge IS the Addictive Voice, not YOU. AVRT is a wonderfully direct and simple dissociative technique that avoids the whole morass of “triggers”, “excuses”, “learned helplessness”, etc, that is out there in the world of chemically dependent people trying to get by with bluffing, lying, and throwing out lots of red herrings in the path to confuse others they have infringed upon in order to secure future drunkenness with as few bad consequences as possible.

The Beast of AVRT is born when a person becomes chemically dependent, meaning the habituated appetite for booze has become incorporated into the midbrain appetite center as a “need” - like oxygen. When a chemically dependent person finally gets into so much trouble that they realize it’s time to stop drinking completely, then that chemically dependent person transitions into addiction. They are drinking again AGAINST their better judgement; they are ambivalent about drinking again while just chemically dependent people are not ambivalent, they believe it is right and good for them. The Beast of AVRT transitions from an as yet unidentified beloved partner in chemical dependency to a well defined and simplistic adversary in an addict who is learning AVRT. Dissociating from that very specifically defined adversary is what makes AVRT so effective.

The only reason anyone ever ingests flavored diluted ethanol is to gain the effects of that chemical on the brain and body. It is a deep pleasure, an assault of deep pleasure. A byproduct of that pleasure is the reduction of a human mind to chemically enhanced stupidity that can get into a lot of trouble in our complex society with complex relationships and roles we play.

It is silly to try to solve all the “excuses” that we come up with to decide to get drunk in order to figure out how to not drink any more. Also, by the time we have that first drink going down our throats feeling that wonderful familiar flavored alcohol, the problem the excuse was presenting to us? It’s already gone. We’re feeling great with the drink in hand. And what is our blood alcohol level at that time? STILL ZERO. So it can’t be getting alcohol into us that solves any of the excuses we come up with.
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Old 05-30-2021, 04:19 PM
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Just a passing comment really - I received the Jack Trimpey book today - started reading it - was really looking forward to it - BUT I find his 'tone' and writing style almost unbearably annoying!
I am still 100% committed to Never drinking again and never changing my mind - but am so disappointed in the book, he comes across as bitter and moaning - and lacking in the intellectual rigour I was expecting. I suppose it doesn't matter really as it changes nothing for me.
I wonder if there are other books which describe this philosophy that are not written by J T?
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