Dr. Silkworth on Alcoholics and Human Nature
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
Originally Posted by Greenwood618 
That's why some alcoholics from some groups have so many yummy little relapses. One one hand, they are powerless over an awesome disease. On the other, they have to go around asking for forgiveness for behavior that isn't their responsibility. I'd drink to if I had to do that all the time.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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I have no ecumenical responsibility to you. I don't care if you drink of not. No one does. But I would absolutely rather drink for the rest of my natural life that have to pretend I have a disease and spend my free time in church basements.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
Originally Posted by Greenwood618
I have no ecumenical responsibility to you. I don't care if you drink of not. No one does. But I would absolutely rather drink for the rest of my natural life that have to pretend I have a disease and spend my free time in church basements.
kinda like I don't believe the earth is flat, ya know?
Cause there's photos taken from space. Evidence.
Maybe you should try to have the AMA change their diagnosis on Alcoholism.
You have an opinion, so that's a start.
Build your case, gather the evidence.
The world awaits
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
Nice one Bimini.
It's only 15 degrees in Melbourne this morning.
Normally the temperature at this time of year is 20 plus.
I'm now convinced global warming is in the fantasies of over zealous do gooders.
I think I'll smoke a hundred cigarettes later, after all, the health warnings are obvious bunkum.
Probably another thing made up on a whim by the AMA and their cronies.
I'd like to see their evidence........ Pffffftttt.
It's only 15 degrees in Melbourne this morning.
Normally the temperature at this time of year is 20 plus.
I'm now convinced global warming is in the fantasies of over zealous do gooders.
I think I'll smoke a hundred cigarettes later, after all, the health warnings are obvious bunkum.
Probably another thing made up on a whim by the AMA and their cronies.
I'd like to see their evidence........ Pffffftttt.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
"Turtles all the way down" is a jocular expression of the infinite regress problem in cosmology posed by the "unmoved mover" paradox. The metaphor in the anecdote represents a popular notion of the myth that Earth is actually flat and is supported on the back of a World Turtle, which itself is propped up by a chain of larger and larger turtles. Questioning what the final turtle might be standing on, the anecdote humorously concludes that it is "turtles all the way down".
I guess that's a good way to put it.
Ignore the science / reality / evidence and substitute your own opinion.
Must remember that one.
I guess that's a good way to put it.
Ignore the science / reality / evidence and substitute your own opinion.
Must remember that one.
Not much else to say to you I guess.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by Greenwood618
The world has way to many people giving recovery advice without the slightest knowledge of what motivates drunks.
And there is only one answer to that: the desire for the deeply pleasurable sensations of alcohol intoxication.
Everything flows from that and anything that contradicts that is pure nonsense,
And there is only one answer to that: the desire for the deeply pleasurable sensations of alcohol intoxication.
Everything flows from that and anything that contradicts that is pure nonsense,
I realize that I did make a sort of a broad generalization myself earlier in this thread. But I'm stickin to it. There's evidence for it in this thread.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by awuh1
How about a desire for oblivion due to extreme guilt. How about extreme anxiety in social situations. How about symptoms of PTSD due to past traumatic experience. These are just the first three that come to mind. For you it may have been the "pleasurable sensations" of intoxication, but that is not generalizable to everyone with an alcohol problem. In fact, I think this is the point of the OP in this thread regarding "alcoholic personalty". Be careful with your generalizations.
I realize that I did make a sort of a broad generalization myself earlier in this thread. But I'm stickin to it. There's evidence for it in this thread.
I realize that I did make a sort of a broad generalization myself earlier in this thread. But I'm stickin to it. There's evidence for it in this thread.
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Originally Posted by MorningGlory
Discussions are fine. Respectful disagreements are fine too. I consider a discussion a conversation when all parties are listening to each other and sharing ideas. Respectful disagreements are disagreements that still allow the other person their own opinion. Discussions are showing an interest in understanding why another feels a certain way. We listen intently as they explain themselves and are free to admit any error in our own ways of thinking. A discussion is a cooperative effort and seeks resolution resulting in a peaceful end even when there are disagreements. Discussions help all to gain a better understanding of both sides of the issue.
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Debates [for the purpose of this forum] are when posters only want to express themselves and discredit the opinions of others in a disrespectful way. Attacking someone else's ideas is not appropriate...Posts that flame or mock another recovery method, spiritual belief, sexual preference, race, disability, mental illness, moderator, or member etc.. are inappropriate. Off site links with similar content are also inappropriate.
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Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
I depended upon drinking alcohol all through my twenties. I knew it was for the feeling I got when alcohol influenced my brain. Yes, a deep, deep pleasure. Everything bad connected to it was worth it until I switched sides and took a serious stand against my habituated appetite.
Alcohol is a specific substance, and the way the human brain functions organically is pretty much the same with everybody. So, I suppose like the simple blackening of the lungs from tobacco smoke, evidence of prolonged alcohol use in the brain makes some sense. But I don't believe that would destroy a person's ability to make decisions when not under the influence (such as a Big Plan and practicing Addictive Voice Recognition Technique).
I also believe it is quite easy to lead a person through any "relapse" to logically understand that pleasure was and is the single goal. All other reasons are an attempt to ameliorate the audience.
OK, when did you first get the idea to drink some more?
blah blah blah.
OK, so you had these bad thoughts and feelings you wanted to get rid of by drinking, right?
yes
So, there you were in this undesirable state. Where did you go to get the alcohol?
blah, blah, blah
OK, sooner or later, you were in possession of some alcohol and in a position to drink it. Maybe alone, or in a bar, or wherever. Maybe you stormed out of the house in your bad mood and were off to the local gin mill.
Yeah.
As you brought that glass with the tinkling ice and familiar volatile aroma to your lips, you finally took that first sip or slug or gulp. You felt the alcohol in your mouth and throat, and, Oh, YEAAAHHHHHH!!!! "Boy, I sure needed that."
right
Well, let's stop right there for a moment. That very instant of swallowing the first sip.
How were you feeling at that VERY INSTANT?
GREAT! JUST GREAT!
OK, what was your blood alcohol level at that very instant?
Um, well, I guess it was still zero.
EXACTLY!
Your blood alcohol level was ZERO, and you were already feeling GREAT!
I rest my case. You were NOT drinking alcohol to get rid of any undesirable thoughts or feelings.
You had ALREADY GOTTEN RID OF THEM AND YOUR BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS STILL ZERO!
Alcohol is a specific substance, and the way the human brain functions organically is pretty much the same with everybody. So, I suppose like the simple blackening of the lungs from tobacco smoke, evidence of prolonged alcohol use in the brain makes some sense. But I don't believe that would destroy a person's ability to make decisions when not under the influence (such as a Big Plan and practicing Addictive Voice Recognition Technique).
I also believe it is quite easy to lead a person through any "relapse" to logically understand that pleasure was and is the single goal. All other reasons are an attempt to ameliorate the audience.
OK, when did you first get the idea to drink some more?
blah blah blah.
OK, so you had these bad thoughts and feelings you wanted to get rid of by drinking, right?
yes
So, there you were in this undesirable state. Where did you go to get the alcohol?
blah, blah, blah
OK, sooner or later, you were in possession of some alcohol and in a position to drink it. Maybe alone, or in a bar, or wherever. Maybe you stormed out of the house in your bad mood and were off to the local gin mill.
Yeah.
As you brought that glass with the tinkling ice and familiar volatile aroma to your lips, you finally took that first sip or slug or gulp. You felt the alcohol in your mouth and throat, and, Oh, YEAAAHHHHHH!!!! "Boy, I sure needed that."
right
Well, let's stop right there for a moment. That very instant of swallowing the first sip.
How were you feeling at that VERY INSTANT?
GREAT! JUST GREAT!
OK, what was your blood alcohol level at that very instant?
Um, well, I guess it was still zero.
EXACTLY!
Your blood alcohol level was ZERO, and you were already feeling GREAT!
I rest my case. You were NOT drinking alcohol to get rid of any undesirable thoughts or feelings.
You had ALREADY GOTTEN RID OF THEM AND YOUR BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS STILL ZERO!
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
I depended upon drinking alcohol all through my twenties. I knew it was for the feeling I got when alcohol influenced my brain. Yes, a deep, deep pleasure. Everything bad connected to it was worth it until I switched sides and took a serious stand against my habituated appetite.
Alcohol is a specific substance, and the way the human brain functions organically is pretty much the same with everybody. So, I suppose like the simple blackening of the lungs from tobacco smoke, evidence of prolonged alcohol use in the brain makes some sense. But I don't believe that would destroy a person's ability to make decisions when not under the influence (such as a Big Plan and practicing Addictive Voice Recognition Technique).
I also believe it is quite easy to lead a person through any "relapse" to logically understand that pleasure was and is the single goal. All other reasons are an attempt to ameliorate the audience.
OK, when did you first get the idea to drink some more?
blah blah blah.
OK, so you had these bad thoughts and feelings you wanted to get rid of by drinking, right?
yes
So, there you were in this undesirable state. Where did you go to get the alcohol?
blah, blah, blah
OK, sooner or later, you were in possession of some alcohol and in a position to drink it. Maybe alone, or in a bar, or wherever. Maybe you stormed out of the house in your bad mood and were off to the local gin mill.
Yeah.
As you brought that glass with the tinkling ice and familiar volatile aroma to your lips, you finally took that first sip or slug or gulp. You felt the alcohol in your mouth and throat, and, Oh, YEAAAHHHHHH!!!! "Boy, I sure needed that."
right
Well, let's stop right there for a moment. That very instant of swallowing the first sip.
How were you feeling at that VERY INSTANT?
GREAT! JUST GREAT!
OK, what was your blood alcohol level at that very instant?
Um, well, I guess it was still zero.
EXACTLY!
Your blood alcohol level was ZERO, and you were already feeling GREAT!
I rest my case. You were NOT drinking alcohol to get rid of any undesirable thoughts or feelings.
You had ALREADY GOTTEN RID OF THEM AND YOUR BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS STILL ZERO!
Alcohol is a specific substance, and the way the human brain functions organically is pretty much the same with everybody. So, I suppose like the simple blackening of the lungs from tobacco smoke, evidence of prolonged alcohol use in the brain makes some sense. But I don't believe that would destroy a person's ability to make decisions when not under the influence (such as a Big Plan and practicing Addictive Voice Recognition Technique).
I also believe it is quite easy to lead a person through any "relapse" to logically understand that pleasure was and is the single goal. All other reasons are an attempt to ameliorate the audience.
OK, when did you first get the idea to drink some more?
blah blah blah.
OK, so you had these bad thoughts and feelings you wanted to get rid of by drinking, right?
yes
So, there you were in this undesirable state. Where did you go to get the alcohol?
blah, blah, blah
OK, sooner or later, you were in possession of some alcohol and in a position to drink it. Maybe alone, or in a bar, or wherever. Maybe you stormed out of the house in your bad mood and were off to the local gin mill.
Yeah.
As you brought that glass with the tinkling ice and familiar volatile aroma to your lips, you finally took that first sip or slug or gulp. You felt the alcohol in your mouth and throat, and, Oh, YEAAAHHHHHH!!!! "Boy, I sure needed that."
right
Well, let's stop right there for a moment. That very instant of swallowing the first sip.
How were you feeling at that VERY INSTANT?
GREAT! JUST GREAT!
OK, what was your blood alcohol level at that very instant?
Um, well, I guess it was still zero.
EXACTLY!
Your blood alcohol level was ZERO, and you were already feeling GREAT!
I rest my case. You were NOT drinking alcohol to get rid of any undesirable thoughts or feelings.
You had ALREADY GOTTEN RID OF THEM AND YOUR BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS STILL ZERO!
And what other disease disappears when the sufferer merely changes his or her behavior?
In addition, the Journal of the American Med. Assn. has published and endorsed junk science before. Just because they say so don't make it so. In addition, not many other countries consider it a disease.
And in almost everyone's gut, the truth is known. Even little kids know, they know people can choose their behaviors.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
And on the day that a drink becomes a necessity to function as a going human concern, the pleasure is dispensed with.
If I don't have a couple of shots to stop the shaking of my hands, I'll have to go to work today and withdraw from physical addiction to alcohol in front of the entire work place.
Then I'll be sacked, my income is lost, my family might go hungry and the bank may foreclose on the mortgage.
Would you define that as "necessity" or "pleasure"
I'm going to work half cut today because I like being at work half cut
Or
I'm going to work today half cut because if I don't, the consequences are diabolical.
If you haven't been there, you are lucky.
Might start off with the seeking of pleasure, but it progresses past that.
The fun / pleasure stops and the living hell begins.
Party time is over.
Without alcohol I'm a shaking, shivering mess and I wish to hell that wasn't the case, but it is what it is, so I drink so my life doesn't get any worse.
Where is the pleasure in that?
And down the track that morning drink won't stay down and blood appears in your vomit.
But if one doesn't stay down, it's physical withdrawal in public..... So it's keep trying till one stays down.
Pleasure, fun, hilarity?
Party party?
Sounds like an illness has taken over to me, but Ymmv.
If I don't have a couple of shots to stop the shaking of my hands, I'll have to go to work today and withdraw from physical addiction to alcohol in front of the entire work place.
Then I'll be sacked, my income is lost, my family might go hungry and the bank may foreclose on the mortgage.
Would you define that as "necessity" or "pleasure"
I'm going to work half cut today because I like being at work half cut
Or
I'm going to work today half cut because if I don't, the consequences are diabolical.
If you haven't been there, you are lucky.
Might start off with the seeking of pleasure, but it progresses past that.
The fun / pleasure stops and the living hell begins.
Party time is over.
Without alcohol I'm a shaking, shivering mess and I wish to hell that wasn't the case, but it is what it is, so I drink so my life doesn't get any worse.
Where is the pleasure in that?
And down the track that morning drink won't stay down and blood appears in your vomit.
But if one doesn't stay down, it's physical withdrawal in public..... So it's keep trying till one stays down.
Pleasure, fun, hilarity?
Party party?
Sounds like an illness has taken over to me, but Ymmv.
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