samseb5351

i wonder if we place way too much emphasis on the idea that recovery is all about "been there, done that" kind of identification, that only a person who is an alcoholic can really help another alcoholic, I guess its the Identification Principle. Having experienced something does not mean we hold some kind of truth about an addiction, I agree that it may help to relieve some of those isolating feelings we get (where you feel you the only one) but really without anything else I imagine its just a bandaid. Dismissing people from any part of the medical and scientific community because they are not themselves Alcoholic seems incredulous to me.
I would agree perhaps there are too many people giving recovery advice, both those without and with experiential knowledge of what motivates the addict, I really am not sure what counts as advice or simple observation, perhaps just developing a good sense of positive skepticism can get people to decent recovery methods.

How can we know there is only one answer to this? What do you mean by deeply pleasurable? Are there any cases, where a person would drink alcohol for other reasons than deep pleasure, like peer pressure as teenager, or pain relief for a world war one amputee, or in medicine? BUT I see you mentioned "what motivates Drunks" So my question would be is a drunk a person who gets Drunk or is it something else? Is there a difference between drinking on a regular basis and not getting drunk and drinking and always getting drunk? For that matter what is "Getting Drunk"? i guess I am motivated to ask all these questions because you have made an absolute statement about motivations of an alcoholic, but I don't understand your evidence or methodology.

JeffreyAK

Not too many years before Silkwood helped found AA (a decidedly non-medical, non-scientific approach that nevertheless works for some people) and wrote about addiction, doctors relied on bloodletting - often with leeches - to treat just about every disease. I presume we should discard that approach to treatment despite its origins in the medical community. We're collectively smarter now, and we know much more about causes and treatments.

The other issue is, alcoholism is primarily a brain disorder caused by too much alcohol drunk for too long (setting aside reasons for drinking enough in the first place to become an addict, some of which are genetic but most of which seem environmental). This brain disorder manifests itself in behavior changes and psychological changes that someone on the outside can't understand, except by categorizing and looking at indirect signatures like MRI scans. This is probably why counselors in addiction treatment programs are almost never medical doctors and scientists, they are psychologists, social workers, and family therapists, most of whom are former addicts. I'd also note that addiction support groups are nearly always led by former addicts.

Not to slam doctors and scientists, I happen to be one, but without an understanding of what it is really like, the best one can do is stick to medical consequences and look to drugs as a tool combat addiction, which can help in some cases but is far from the whole story.

anattaboy

Pretty complex disorder to say the least. My daily drinking at 53 was nothing like it was at 27, and of course 15 to 25 was full of black-outs. Abstinence is different now also. I absolutely cannot relate to those who still think of moderating or even crave a drink after 48 hrs or so of quitting. Complete abs is still the answer for me but I'm not so sure we are all the same type of alcoholic. I got my impetus to taper to zero from HAMS and Moonwatcher at MDJunction--never once did I consider moderating but maybe some can. As for behaviors, I think most get beat up a bit from not being able to keep their word to themselves but the degree varies greatly. My wife could not taper and had very high BP for days (she is a health professional and did not want the record). Things are good now but it's hard to say if more damage is done by abrupt cessation (my take ) or daily binge drinking (waiting till 5). I like reading all the info, Silkworth.net is bookmarked here as well as everything else. Just a hobby I guess. Thanks for the thread.

Morning Glory

2nd notice that 12 step references are off topic on this forum. That includes the Blue Book and other references referring to 12 step recovery methods. I just skimmed through quickly so I'm not sure if bacon or sausage is included on the list.

...and remember... the only reason I allowed AVRT discussions here is because you all were finally able to discuss it appropriately within our forum rules.

dwtbd

I like bacon, based on empirical evidence