WineOhNo

I am new here. I have been reading through all of the threads over the last few weeks and I just wanted to say thank you. It took me years of ooking for a way to conquer this and I finally feel at peace with things. I no longer let my beast control me. I will never drink again. I will never change my mind. Never.

Thank you so much.

Aussiebutterfly

Awesome WineOhNO! Good for you.

kanamit

I haven't posted for a while but I have been reading these posts. It's so great to see that in spite of Terminally Unique's absence, AVRT is being expounded so well. As a relative newcomer, I don't have anything to add so have therefore kept quiet.

Great job though, everybody. I'm sure these threads have helped a lot of people. I should know as I am one of them!

One thing that does concern me, being the pessimist that I am, to whom do you think Jack Trimpey will appoint as his successor when his career ends? I don't know how old he is but I'd guess he soon deserves a long-overdue retirement. It strikes me that RR is a very small company and I can't imagine anyone can cut through the AV nonsense quite like JT.

shockozulu

SMART Recovery survived the illness and death of Albert Ellis. I don't see why the same won't hold true for Rational Recovery.

IAmAbstinent

Guys Im feeling rather torn now...

I relapsed on monday after my beast having planned it for a good while. Now my issue with AVRT is that it says you should jsut lump any hardship that comes with resolving not to use again. For me this I found just built up my stress more and more- even though drugging causes me WAY more stress- does that just mean I should have stronger will power? The stress certainly wasnt 'imagined'.

Ive felt awful all week.

Now in my despair I contacted the local drug treatment centre. Im kind of torn cos part of me agrees that I dont want that to become a crutch but another part of me thinks that avrt didnt work for me because it doesnt suggest replacing you old behaviours with new more constructive ones which the treatment centre seems to advocate.

I was reading their blurb and it says its based partly on CBT which Ive been reading recently and find to be very rational in itself.

So Im not sure what to do- I agree wtih some of the things they say about working on getting new activities and such and that is what they will work with me to do but still dislike the idea of them becoming a crutch. The advisor on the phone told me they will teach me skills on how to be independant and it gives me the opportunity to speak to others who are already abstinent and learn from them.

So not sure what to do? The main problem for me is I isolate myself in my house so think that it would be good just to get out of the house and speak to ppl who have gone through similar issues. Im also wary of them being a crutch too tho.

So I still agree with the basic premise of avrt however dont agree you shouldnt work on replacing it with other stuff as being one of the main underpinnings of continued abstinence. I sort of agree with parts of each.

I said to myself I should at least go to one session to be able to get an informed decision of what its all about.

Maybe I should also inquire in the other forums.

GerandTwine

I recall TU emphasizing dependency as the original problem, so it makes sense to not replace it with another dependency. That's why AVRT leaves your new life up to you and recommends not backtracking from a Big Plan into thinking you need recovery group membership in order to remain sober. AVRT never discourages people from seeking professional counseling. AVRT simply alerts people to be wary of non-AVRT recovery thinking in professional human service workers.

Have you considered making that once in a lifetime Big Plan for your beast's favorite drugs? Since Dalek joined one month ago (see top of p. 12 of this thread) and posted about smoking again there's been an ongoing discussion about how AVRT doesn't work well at all unless you've made that once in a lifetime Big Plan for the stuff you want to quit.

IAmAbstinent

I already made a big plan already . Just repeating to myself that I wouldnt take drugs again as I said I didnt really find effective, I think I also have to get a more social lifestyle as it was my isolatory habits which led me to such activities. I know the talk about your abstinent shoudlnt be contingent on anything which I agree with in theory but I think you still have to deal with the causes to get rid of the desire- which I know trimpey would prob disagree with cos he says you will always desire.

hmm will check top of p12.

Yes this service seems to be about offering counselling and a support worker. Im still in two minds about it due to the dependence part of it maybe being aware of that aspect I would could chose not to get into that, but rather take lessons from others.

I know I definitely have to also focus on making a life for myself as being part of my continued abstinence which I would have to do myself anyhow.

Also I am a 'failure' in avrt terms am I not for breaking the big plan- or its worded as 'reversal of intent'?

Anyway as I said the underlying life issues were still there which are what encouraged me to use imo. So just repeating the mantra and not changing the lifestlye I think would likely lead down the same route- I know it as in the past. So I have to change my lifestyle as my priority I think.

GerandTwine

No, you are not a failure of any sort. You simply haven't fully understood the true meaning of the Big Plan, and have yet to make it. I know you can do it.

1 - The Big Plan cannot be broken.
2 - The Big Plan can only be done once in a lifetime for any given substance.
3 - The Big Plan is a very deliberate decision and YOU WILL FEEL the impact of its permanence and KNOW that you will ALWAYS recall the Big Plan whenever the desire to use again comes to mind - that being your Addictive Voice.
4 - You will have some very uniquely human positive feelings upon making a Big Plan called the ACE - Abstinence Commitment Effect.

For me, number 4 was a grand awareness of absolute domination over the habit I was terminating - the Beast. An incomparable reverberation of knowing time and timelessness. Knowing I will die having lived happily without that stuff ever getting inside of me again is such a solid idea that it gives me confidence to go out and do all kinds of other things without worrying about having to choose to use, or not, in the future.

bumble

On "replacing it with other stuff":

I replaced food with alcohol. I was a compulsive binge eater, and then I was a compulsive binge drinker. This was bad replacement strategy!

Now, I'm trying to replace alcohol with exercise. Reading. Cooking. Etc. I consider this a good replacement strategy.

If AVRT, or any method, works, isn't the proof that it's working lie in the fact that you are now doing something else other than drinking/using?

And IAm, if you think it would help to get out and talk to people who've been there, by all means - do so!! Can't hurt, can it?

WineOhNo

I think that repeating to yourself that you won't take drugs again is very different than actually not wanting to and understanding that it is your addiction that wants to indulge, not you. In any given situation, I've found it fool proof to shift between what my "inner psycho" wants and what "I want". When I look at it this way, it's easy for me to see that yes, my addiction would love a drink - but there's no way that I do. It's not even an option. And even if i have to take a walk or find something to entertain myself until the thought vanishes, that's what i do.

That being said, I don't think that there is anything wrong with trying something else. Everyone is different. If you're not ready to commit to giving up drugs permanently than you are probably better off looking into a program. It certainly can't hurt. We're all different, do whatever you think will work for you.

IAmAbstinent

Well I am absolutely ready to commit to permanent abstinence. I just wrote up my big plan specifically for stimulant drugs.

So I see that you are saying that going to a program is at odds with permanent abstinence.

IAmAbstinent

I'm thinking when they ring back I'll decline their offer and focus on RR and also on adopting new activities- the second part being the new addition to the equation.

IAmAbstinent

Is it better to make a big plan for each specific drug or drugs in general?

For example stimulants have been the main problem for me but I also never want to take psychedelics again either however stimulants have been the main issue for me.

I first did it for stimulants but then changed added another 'I will never take recreational drugs again and I will never change my mind'.

Maybe for another clause I will also add 'and I will learn new activities to enjoy life in secure abstinence'.

GerandTwine

Your Big Plan sounds right, if "recreational" means any mind altering drugs outside of a prescription from a trusted doctor. Congratulations, I bet it feels different this time.

Your last sentence, though, is your AV sneaking in to propose another clause to your Big Plan regarding what else you need TO DO as opposed TO NOT DO.

What you will be doing in the future is not part of the AVRT method, although the Beast would love to make it so. AVRT sticks to a very particular something you will not be doing, in a very precisely focused way, which makes it pretty easy in the long run.

As you move ahead with your life and make longer plans, it would be perfectly logical to take advantage of counseling sessions from a professional. Good counseling can be a positively creative experience.

When you think about your future, who you are, what you like, what you want, what does it really feel like to you (not IT) as you now realize the simple fact that you will never be getting high again?

Aussiebutterfly

From what I remember in the book I believe it's "I will never drink/use again" and in saying that it means ANY type of drug or drink unless it's prescribed by your doctor and you aren't trying to use it to get high.

So... keep it as possible or you'll just end up making loopholes for the beast to get you high or drunk another way. NO drugs or alcohol. End of story.

If I'm incorrect then I don't mind because I'm sticking to this.

GerandTwine

Thanks for the clarification. Alcohol is "The" flagship recreational drug of our society in my book.

IAmAbstinent

Ye I think I remember trimpey stating that in the book.

I lost the page now but I was jsut reading a part on beast refutations- that isnt what it was called in the book but where trimpey gives a list of beast excuses then refutes them.

This is pretty much what I was getting at with finding new activities and Im glad trimpey also spoke about this.

For example where the beast excuse is: I used because Im stressed.

and the refutation would be

I chose to use rather than finding other productive things to do like as other people would.

Im gonna write up my own beast refutations in a spreadsheet now.

IAmAbstinent

Here's what I've come up with:

I chose to use because... Refutation
There was nothing else to do|||||| I chose to use rather than making the effort to find constructive and healthy enjoyment in life

...of stress|||||| I chose to use because I did not want to make the effort to find proven and effective stress reduction techniques

of depression||||||I chose to use because I did not want to make the effort to build a fulfilling lifestyle

I wanted confidence||||I to use rather than learning lasting confidence strategies

Other people have their vices so its only fair I have mine||||I chose to use rather than making the effort to find constructive and healthy enjoyment in life

GerandTwine

What you have come up with is a list of Beast Lies followed not by refutations, but more AV that IT would love to have you and others around you continue to believe. The post is all AV.

I used to try to get other people to think this way about my behavior before I quit booze and drugs for good. And after I quit (before RR came along) and entered a recovery program, I kept hearing this sort of disjointed logic, but I didn't let it affect my commitment to abstain.

Then, when I learned about RR and saw AVRT being developed and refined, I knew I was right all along in not believing the weird excuse logic for using mind altering substances. There was just one reason. I knew it then, I know it now, and I actually knew it way back when I was trying to pull the wool over other peoples eyes about why I drank and toked so, so much.

If you go to p. 151 and 152 in RR:TNC, you can see how to deal with Beast Lies quickly and completely.

Also, if you review my post 182 and 184 of this thread you will see why, in utilizing AVRT, there is really only one reason you chose to use which any possible excuse attempts to cover up.

Also, first, two questions for anyone, and third, a question for anyone who's made a Big Plan.

1. What is the AVRT way to quickly recognize and dispose of a Beast Lie?

2. What is the one clear and logical reason that dependent users drink or drug?

3. What good feelings did YOU have when you were making your Big Plan. Did YOU (not IT) feel the sense of hope about your future now that you no longer have the ability to choose to use? How does it feel to know that you have permanently taken away from yourself not only the possibility of feeling high from drugs again, but you've also taken away your ability to even choose to get high ever again?

Aussiebutterfly

My answer to number 3 was relief.

IamAbstinent, you did not drink for any of those reasons. You drank because you just like any of us that drank/used ourselves into oblivion we did it because we were being selfish invdividuals just thinking about us and nothing more. We just wanted to do it and we did no matter how terrible the consequences may be.

And GT is right your reasons are pure beast activity. It's a bit like when you go to meetings and they say if you don't make sure you do this this this and this you may drink again. That is what you are doing... it's your way of having escape route to a relapse whenever you choose.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I'm not trying to be but it's just how RR works. It's honest and to the point and best thing is it works when you follow a few little tips.