Aussiebutterfly

GerandTwine, I'm sure your beast will love this but I am wondering if there really is any need for you to make a Big Plan for sugar when you have done just fine in the last year. Of course if you find yourself totally out of control again then yes you should do it.

No need doing something so permanent if it's not needed is it?

GerandTwine

In my mind, this question brings up the very essence of not only AVRT, but also an important perspective on why and how humanity has created and human beings function in advanced societies. We have all learned from infancy to inhibit many, many tendencies we are capable of recognizing desires to act upon. Regarding actions towards satisfying desire, we have become habituated to saying no (not now, rarely, hardly ever, maybe not at all) instead of never because reality is complex, it's hard to predict the future, and desire leads to pleasure. Not to mention the influences all around us in our gigantic consumer society marketplace.

But we have also learned perfectly well how to permanently inhibit ourselves regarding actions towards preventing obvious harm to ourselves and our loved ones. This involves literally thousands of "I will never..."s such as the never swallow Drano example I gave in an earlier post.

AVRT is the method that makes the never regarding desire just as easy as the never regarding harm, because AVRT splits desire and harm in the simplest biological and moral way possible to allow the self-directed ending of an unwanted habit. (so much for the enhanced review)

MORAL, there it is. To finally answer the question. I have learned a lot about the sugar in our foods and what used to be my diet, and the more I learned, it wasn't hard to make it a moral problem for me.

"...so permanent.." you say. SO, SOOOOO permanent. I've become unafraid of permanent. Having known AVRT for decades, I LOVE permanent, and I exercise it carefully. And "not needed"? I don't need it - I WANT it.

Yes, I "have done just fine in the last" five months, but I know my Big Plan for sweets could and will now vastly streamline my gastronomical life with hardly any real change. So, what's the difference between, say, ten pounds of sugar over a year, and zero sugar a year? Virtually nothing.

This has nothing to do with being "out of control", but, over the last five months I've wondered about

-how much honey or maple syrup should I really eat.
-whether or not I will ever again eat those carefully heated french donuts from Dunkin Donuts that melted into greasy sugar-butter-dough in my mouth.
-when I'm offered deserts, whether I should join in to try to influence something or other.
-when I'll hit the half way mark on July 1, what will that be like?
-whether I should go straight into a Big Plan next year or pig out for a week or two.
-maybe dropping the Big Plan idea and doing the moderation thing you've recommended.
-and on and on and on and on

Why not end it once and for all? So, I did.
And I REALLY FEEL IT. The future really looks so much easier now. And I'm hungry, and it's NOT for sweets. YAYYYY! Off to a late dinner.

aNewEternity

just placed my order on Amazon for the Rational Recovery book.

spiritangel

If you call its bluff, the Beast will cut and run. If you doubt this, the next time you hear the AV say "let's have a beer," just think "OK, Beastie, we can have a beer... if you can go over to the fridge and fetch it for me. Don't forget the bottle opener."

Ha! This helped me more then you know. Thanks TU. New here and recovering from recovery!

TheSubtleKnife

Beast was more active last night than it has been before. I don't know why this is. But I don't drink so I didn't. I do enjoy life more though when beast isn't going on so much.

I know it only has one agenda alcohol. But I think the fact that as I had ran out of fruit juices I was looking in the fridge for milkshake or anything other than tea and coffee to drink. That's when my beast started making suggestions so I drank water not what my beast wanted :-)

have restocked up on nice non alcoholic drinks today though and found a nice new one with pinapple lime and coconut.

I keep hereing on different forums about triggers but surely triggers are just triggering the AV and aslong as YOU don't lift the drink to you mouth and drink alcohol nothing happens apart from your beast getting uncomfortable?

Or have I got all this wrong as I'm newish to it?

Aussiebutterfly

Who cares about triggers? Nothing triggers me to drink since I will never drink, end of story! If something wakes beasty up then that doesn't matter because I know how to deal with him.

Also don't go confusing yourself too much with what non AVRT people say since they may be "in recovery" It's best to keep things simple I find. We are recovered and don't need anything else right? There is no white knuckling with AVRT, the beast doesn't frighten us because we are in control of our hands so won't pick up that drink/drug.

GerandTwine

The act of finding something, putting it in the mouth, and swallowing, is way too complex to be "triggered" especially by the awareness that only certain beverages are in close proximity. Mistakenly putting a hand on a very hot stove is the type of act that can "trigger" a response.

TheSubtleKnife

Thanks for the responses. Whilst i Have been doing great with crash course and my big plan and reading the posts here I have decided to buy the rational recovery book as I want to learn as much as I can about how to recognise the AV. I've bought the new cure. Is there more than one. If so which book would you reccomend?

Aussiebutterfly

The only book to learn AVRT needed is RR: The new cure unless you find you need more help then you can get the DVD's or go to the actual course but most people don't need that.

hypochondriac

While you're on the question of books... What is The Art of AVRT like? As a complete newcomer to recovery I found the anti AA stuff in the new cure not very useful and would love to read a book which stands on it's own regarding AVRT techniques. Are any of them like that?

Dalek

RR: The New Cure does stand on its own, it just has some other material in there as well. The first 89 pages of The New Cure are more or less deprogramming from recovery group and addiction treatment methods. Part II (pages 91-240) is the actual AVRT book course. Part III (pages 241-322) deals with how to help an addicted family member, gambling, and the politics of recovery. Part III also has a transcript of an AVRT session (pages 274-291) that is definitely worth reading, even if you don't care for anything else in that section.

Though I personally did not mind any of the "anti-AA" material in The New Cure, and find it interesting that people who do mind can't just skip ahead (there is a table of contents), I can say that The Art of AVRT ramps things up from disagreement to true "AA bashing". It covers some things that were left out of TNC, most of which have been discussed in this thread, but if I were a gambling man, I would bet that you wouldn't like it too much. I would also bet that you put the RR book down very early on, without reading the good stuff, so here are some questions for you, so that you have an opportunity to correct me if I am wrong.

1. Have you read Part II of The New Cure (Pages 91-240)?
   
   
2. Have you read the transcript on pages 274-291?
   
   
3. Have you read through this discussion thread?

If you haven't read any of these things, I suggest that you do. If you have read them, perhaps you can tell us what didn't make sense to you? We'll then know how best to help you regarding AVRT.

hypochondriac

Thanks Dalek.

I have read through all of the new cure and really liked it. I haven't read all this thread though. I just didn't need deprogramming seeing as I had never been to AA nor knew a thing about it (and as an irrelevant aside I find it impossible to skip through things in books!). I was just wondering what the other books were like..

Thanks x

Aussiebutterfly

What are your future plans for drinking/using Hypochondriac?

Have you done the crash course on the RR website? Have you made your Big Plan yet?

You say you don't need deprogramming but if you'd read the True Cure book you would remember that saying you are in recovery IS recovery talk! Mr Trimpey says that you do not need to have ever have been in a recovery meeting to have picked up ideas about it, society in general can do that to us. Little words like that can play with your mind so be careful and maybe read the book again after reading all of these threads. It's been suggested before by some others and I know I also need to do the same soon.

If you have made your Big Plan then why don't you feel you are recovered? I know I am recovered and never want to waste another moment "getting help" in meetings or in any other place for a VERY stupid thing I did in my past which was drink myself into oblivion any chance I could. Time to live not recover!!! You are very lucky unlike many others. Many like myself have wasted hundreds if not thousands of hours sitting in rooms listening to how to try to stay sober instead of absinent.

I wish you well. It's great you are looking into it all. Don't be put off by anything you find negative, some people really need to hear things that may not affect you so it's hard for you to comprend I guess.

As I said before the book to read is the New Cure. It is the current and updated book, the old book is not of any use if you read New Cure.

Dalek

My mistake, then.

The contributors here have covered the basics of AVRT almost to the point of absurdity. It is quite an archive, and I'm actually wondering what the heck hasn't been covered. Worth reading through it from the very beginning. The book can have a different feel on a second read after you've had some key concepts clarified.

Are you attending AA meetings now?

aNewEternity

got my Rational Recovery book in the mail yesterday and have read to page 108. so far relatively good -- I think too much space was spent in the first part retreading the same anti-AA stuff over and over, but I certainly think he has reason for it and he struck gold with AVRT. the chapter I just finished had the thesis "you drank for pleasure, nothing more" which is a beautifully simple idea and liberating to hear. it's much easier to imagine avoiding it when it's stripped down to its inner logic like that, without all of the rationalizations and obscurantism of the AV.

Dalek

If you want to end the recovery-ism game (endless not-quite-recovering) for good, AVRT provides a very elegant and simple way to do so. You simply make a Big Plan for all your old recovery haunts, or any variations thereof, and then handle any thoughts of going back in the exact same way as you would handle your Addictive Voice.

hypochondriac

Thanks for the reply Aussie. I have done the crash course and I credit AVRT with getting me sober (along with SR of course). It's been incredibly useful to me. Thanks for pointing out the word thing though, I really think things like that are important. I still use the word recovery on the basis that I don't feel recovered though. I may not have fully understood RR but maybe it was just not for me long term.

I am going to AA now Dalek...Basically after a few months of sobriety I was feeling a bit lost seeing as all my friends are drinkers. And also fear of AA kept me drinking for a long time and I felt like it was something I had to face up to. The fact that I really, really did not want to go made me think I should do it. And it has been fantastic. I literally have nothing to be afraid of now. I am abstinent but I also call myself an alcoholic because again, it was a word I was terrified of. I don't want my sobriety to be dependent on any conditions. I will go to AA and do the steps by choice but also continue to read the AVRT stuff and anything else which may help me.

Thanks x

Dalek

AVRT purposefully reduces things to such simple ideas because against that backdrop, the Addictive Voice is very conspicuous. The Beast is a pleasure-driven survival drive, just like our sex drive, and regardless of what the AV says, the Beast just wants that buzz. There is certainly a greater purpose to sex than just pleasure, but if nature hadn't made it feel good, we would probably be extinct by now. Addiction mimics that existing survival drive, and as if falling in love with the bottle, the AV reorganizes our thoughts around the new object of our affection.

Dalek

Although I tend to be a purist as far as AVRT is concerned, and personally find AA and AVRT irreconcilable, I also view AA as a lifestyle. They appropriately call it "the AA way of life" even in their own literature. Some people apparently like that lifestyle, and I won't try to dissuade you from going. If you've read the Rational Recovery book, you are making an informed decision, and you will inevitably draw your own conclusions.

Aussiebutterfly

Well said Dalek! Yes each to their own as long as they don't drink/use but the recovery isn't needed if you are recovered.

I for one couldn't wait to tell my sponsor I wasn't coming back to any more meetings the minute I learned of AVRT & I did my Big Plan because now I knew I didn't have to depend apon anything else but myself to stay off the drink. Before that I just thought it was AA or die, didn't know about any alternative.

It was also a relief to know I didn't have to fumble through the steps anymore always wondering if I'd done them well enough to stay sober and then knowing that I'd be doing them again in the future...like a never ending melody of meetings, steps and reading/discussing something that almost killed me. Not fun.

Do you have any family or hobbies that could fill your time with instead Hypo? I've started taking care of myself better by spending time walking and learning to heal my body to any damage the drinking did through eating well. I'm enjoying researching it all online, bit of a hobby for me now.