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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

Old 07-15-2012, 01:29 AM
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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

For an open discussion go to Part 6 https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-part-6-a.html (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 6)

This is part five of an ongoing thread for discussion on the method of Rational Recovery®, called Addictive Voice Recognition Technique®, or AVRT®, which is described in detail in the following book:
"Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey
The previous parts of this thread are available here:



If you have not done so already, you may want to read the following posts:

  1. Introduction — (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion)
  2. Difference between SMART Recovery & Rational Recovery — (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3)
  3. A note on "The Small Book" — (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3)
  4. Regarding Religion — (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3)
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NOTE:
Wherever they appear here, with or without the ®, Rational Recovery®, Addictive Voice Recognition Technique®, AVRT®, and Beast® are proprietary service marks registered by the United States Patent and Trademark Office and owned by Rational Recovery Systems, Inc.
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:10 PM
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Thanks, Dee. I'll send you the $20 for letting me get the last word on that other thread.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
A magic bullet? No, I am not that naive, and I accept and understand that my AV is part of a healthy brain. Nonetheless, annoying things are annoying. While I understand and accept that bees are a part of a healthy environment, I would still prefer not to be stung.
Except that the Beast can't "sting" you. You are giving it way too much power with that particular metaphor. The Beast is an impotent entity, a quadriplegic with no means to fulfill itself beyond getting you to believe that you want what it wants. The Beast can only fly around and make idle threats, metaphorically speaking. In the final analysis, if you actually believe what the Beast says and act on it, you sting yourself. The Beast can't pour drinks, after all.

Also, the preference not to be stung by bees is not quite the same thing as a preference for no bees, is it? In other words, a preference for recognizing AV nonsense is not quite the same thing as a preference for no AV.

Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
This leads again to a distinction between skillful and unskillful desire, as well as skillful and unskillful suffering. This is a useful distinction here, because without it the reductio leads pretty darn quick to the absurdum.
No, it isn't a useful distinction here, because AVRT makes no such distinction. The only distinction AVRT makes is between your desires and those of your Beast, your thoughts and AV thoughts. You are attempting to inject Buddhist ideas, precepts, and terminology into the AVRT framework, where they do not belong. While you may certainly use such ideas in your own life, and while there may be incidental, even very interesting parallels, AVRT is simply not based on Buddhism.

I shouldn't indulge this, but just for kicks, I would argue that the desire to not have Beast activity or a preference for AV silence falls under the category of unskillful desire, because it aims for the impossible. We cannot control what the Beast wants or mitigate the expression of that desire in our thoughts (ie, the Addictive Voice). The Beast is what it is, and it will come and go as it pleases, not as we please. Better to come to terms with that entirely.

Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
So I'm buying the bees. A preference for a smooth, easy journey through the day—to live comfortably in the presence of AV, as Dalek phrased it—is not the same as eagerly anticipating the magical disappearance of AV.
No, it certainly isn't. One point of view accepts the presence of AV, and the other wants it gone.

Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Isn't RR making a nod to the basic human desire for comfort when it says we can learn to relate to AV "as less than a nuisance"?
He might be making a nod, but I believe Trimpey's main point there was toward not fearing the Beast or the AV, or being threatened by them in any way. We accept both as a fact of life, and in relating to them as "less than a nuisance," we stop being "annoyed" by them.

Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Bearing in mind that a preference is not the same as a condition, I don't see how it meets these criteria (for AV)
The preference for the absence of desire or AV silence suggests self-doubt in the presence of those things. Since the only thing that the AV points to is drinking/using, that self-doubt is about abstaining, and self-doubt about abstaining implies the possibility of not abstaining, which is AV.

I would add that there is a mighty thin line between preferring AV silence temporarily and wanting the AV to go away entirely. Anyone who wants the AV to go away temporarily inevitably also wants it to go away permanently.

You can play with the words and say that you prefer but do not require AV silence if you want, and I will assume that to be the case, but I still consider that preference mighty suspect. In my own thinking, I would see it as Addictive Voice.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:58 AM
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you can play with the words and say that you prefer but do not require av silence if you want, and i will assume that to be the case, but i still consider that preference mighty suspect. In my own thinking, i would see it as addictive voice.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:09 PM
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I don't think it's really playing with the words. I give Trimpey & Co. a lot of credit for being so precise in their language, and personally think I could drive a truck through that mighty thin line... But I notice the horse is no longer moving, so I should probably stop beating it with this rolled up Big Plan of mine...

I'm glad you're here, Dalek; please do not stop calling them like you see 'em!
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:35 AM
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Let's all hold hands around the fire of our differences, warmed by the glow of our sameness, and chant out a couple of hearty songs, no?!
:rotfxko

You guys sooo slay me. Awesome. I'm in good company, and I'm grateful to be enjoying our collective experiences. What's there not to like?

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Old 07-17-2012, 11:56 AM
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Kumbaya, Rob. Kumbay effin ya.

So now that we've conclusively settled that issue, what's next?

PS: You shoulda seen the way my Beast jumped around in his cage at the fireside singalong metaphor. Appears I've discovered some more dusty old mental associations, lol...
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:29 PM
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At this point for me quitting is almost too easy. I'm not really sure why, maybe its the fact that I made it past that first 10 days or so? I'm not sure at all but I've really had almost no desire at all to drink after that initial few days. I've been drinking heavily for over 15 years and have not been able to moderate my drinking for all of that time.

I visited my wife a few days ago, took her shopping, she asked me why I didn't get beer, lol. She already knows I quit, then when we get back to her place she keeps asking me if i want a beer, she doesn't have anything else cold so I should really drink a beer, she had a few, I just drank semi-cold water. Then everytime she went to get her another one she was asking me if I wanted on that time, as if I'd change my mind haha.

I have no idea why she didnt want to put soda or water in the fridge, maybe she really thought she could get me to drink. The funny thing is, she was always trying to get me to quit drinking, for years, but then as soon as I did quit for a while she was always doing this and now I realize that I was right to move out before trying to seriously quit drinking. She doesn't have a drinking problem at all and can drink 1 or 4 or none so maybe she just doesn't get it but I don't understand why after she watched me drink for over a decade and was constantly complaining about it.

Anyway, I don't see this getting any more difficult and I have no intention of ever drinking again either. I know that even though it seems so easy it's also easy to get back on the same merry-go-round for many more years.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:45 PM
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oh how I have missed you guys! I know you all beat it up pretty good, but might I add that buddhism actually encourages a sort of "leaning into"...a sort of welcoming discomfort rather than running from or trying to abolish it in some way. I do see the parallels and have always said so, however I agree that it is not effective to inject these or any other ideas into AVRT. The simplicity is the key. The more one muddies the waters, well...the muddier the water is.
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:29 PM
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It is very good to have you back with us, Soberlicious, was getting a little concerned. Not concerned about you so much, but concerned about us! Good to hear from you again.
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:50 PM
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Hey, soberlicious, how ya doin? Badass as ever, I assume?

Don't get me started again on the Buddhist parallels... but alas, I don't believe the reincarnation elements, so that particular horse must horse remain quite dead to me.

Imaquitter, I just realized you're in SD, too. AVRT must be taking a serious toll on local liquor sales....

OK, sorry, I know this isn't a social thread. So how about this for a topic: The popularization of the term "AV." It seems to be a lot more common on the newcomers threads. Often it seems people know little about AVRT; some are even active in AA or another recovery paradigm.

So—what do you guys make of that? On the one hand, I agree AVRT is incompatible with many other programs. But viewing the desire as originating from my addiction, not me, and thereby detaching from it, was incredibly helpful to me before I had heard about AVRT and the Big Plan.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble
Badass as ever, I assume?
LOL...oh you know it R&A!

But viewing the desire as originating from my addiction, not me, and thereby detaching from it, was incredibly helpful to me before I had heard about AVRT and the Big Plan.
I agree R&A...it was for me too. The first time I quit I did so for 10 years, in this way. What was missing for me was truly identifying the AV. I did not understand the subtleties of the AV and because of that, I wasn't able at one point to maintain the seperation. It became I, and I became It...very quickly I might add.
Now, having just stressed the simplicity of AVRT in the previous post, I'm also going to say that I think it's a mistake to oversimplify the complexities of the AV. Reading RR has really allowed me to hone in on AV in myself and in others. Identify/seperate/dismiss. Obviously, w/o identifying, the rest is moot.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by imaquitter View Post
I don't see this getting any more difficult and I have no intention of ever drinking again either.
This is your AV creeping in. You have "no intention" of ever drinking again, or you won't ever drink again? Would it matter if it got more difficult? The Beast will often try to undercut the finality of the Big Plan by injecting ambiguity into the wording, or by subtly associating it with some other condition (such as difficulty).
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:47 PM
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Reading RR has really allowed me to hone in on AV in myself and in others.
Oh, totally, I didn't mean to endorse AVRT-lite as an ideal. Exposure to AVRT turned me from a combatant into... I don't know what I am now... the fairly accepting owner of an immortal feral pet, I guess.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
So—what do you guys make of that? On the one hand, I agree AVRT is incompatible with many other programs. But viewing the desire as originating from my addiction, not me, and thereby detaching from it, was incredibly helpful to me before I had heard about AVRT and the Big Plan.
Yeah, my same experience. I was apparently doing an unorganised variation of AVRT before I knew of AVRT proper.

I don't see AVRT as strickly incompatible with many other programs upon deeper introspection. I'm managing to make progress with AVRT, and I'm satisfied I've not been 'assimilated by the Borg-ness' [Star Trek] of AVRT, heh heh.

I do see as problematic how/if AVRT is expressed as a personal experience when compared with other modalities, programs, philosophies, etc. Side-by-side comparisons are unproductive and unrevealing, imo, except to bring confusion into the discussion, which can not itself be helpful.

It's all about the AV itself. We each have a subjective experience of our AV, and yet AVRT is not a subjective technique whatsoever when implemented to discover our AV.

This seperation of experience is interesting to say the least, and its this difference in experiences which defines AVRT has different when 'compared' with whatever.

The Beast is 'philosophically created', because of the results this seperation of addictive experiences /non-addictive experiences. And like we are saying, we seemed to have understood and appreciated our awareness of the existence of the Beast before we took up AVRT.

I too early on fully embraced my addicted self was not me myself, even though it was of me. This ongoing continuos experience has never failed me, and never will, because it works so well no matter the depth of my introspection.

Great question, RAA.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by imaquitter View Post
At this point for me quitting is almost too easy. I'm not really sure why, maybe its the fact that I made it past that first 10 days or so? I'm not sure at all but I've really had almost no desire at all to drink after that initial few days. I've been drinking heavily for over 15 years and have not been able to moderate my drinking for all of that time.
The AV understands "never" perfectly, and hates it. It wants to both not be recognized and try to undermine your Big Plan, and It's succeeded at both in your paragraph above by getting you to think in the incorrect "have been drinking" verb tense, as opposed to the correct "had been drinking" verb tense. In my mind this is far from an insignificant concept in AVRT - verb tense use regarading drinking/using.

Try repeating this a few times to yourself.
"I used to drink alcohol." and see if you recognize some new AV feelings connected to doubt.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
...how about this for a topic: The popularization of the term "AV." It seems to be a lot more common on the newcomers threads. Often it seems people know little about AVRT; some are even active in AA or another recovery paradigm.

So—what do you guys make of that? On the one hand, I agree AVRT is incompatible with many other programs. But viewing the desire as originating from my addiction, not me, and thereby detaching from it, was incredibly helpful to me before I had heard about AVRT and the Big Plan.
I'm beginning to believe (that Neo is The One, no, just kidding). I'm beginning to believe that AVRT can be introduced into other recovery modalities with positive results. Even with incorrect understandings about AVRT, I think people begin to realize that they don't need to be in the recovery group movement in order to stay stopped. Some AV awareness will allow them to go longer without meetings. Once that process begins, I think may people will find that desireable - more free time, more personal responsibility, and they will ultimately out-grow that dependence on meetings. It's kind of like a reverse Gresham's Law of recovery programming.

Then they can learn AVRT properly and REALLY put the problem behind them.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:50 PM
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Thanks for those responses, guys. Good, thoughtful stuff—as usual.
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Old 07-25-2012, 04:32 AM
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When hear my AV I just accept whatever and resolve my response to be as minimal as possible. In fact, just simple awareness of my AV is more than enough for me to descriminate between me and my Beast.

I wonder how others 'feel' about their Beast. I'm indifferent emotionally, and give the barest intellectual response to my Beast. Meh, its a learned skill, being indifferent, lol.
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:21 AM
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..... <cricket>..... <cricket>..... <cricket>.....
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