2dayzmuse

What seems so blatantly apparent to others, some of us have to live the insanity a little bit longer before we can finally see it, believe it and accept it for what it really is.

earlybird

Its just,...that,..to see someone log on to a sober-site and announce that he thinks he has even a remote chance of "curing" alcoholism through a half-baked, ignorant, almost laughable scheme in which he maps out times in which he drinks his booze is unbelievable to me. The fact that he can type what hes typed,........read it for himself,.....and STILL not see how insane it sounds. You drank to get drunk....PERIOD. We didnt drink because we appreciated a fine wines fragrant nose,...or because we liked the beers clean, crisp, refreshing finish. We drank to get blitzed. End of story. So this attempt to keep it at only a few, and not get drunk isnt even the TYPE of drinking you enjoyed. So what makes you think you can stick to this??? And why would you even WANT to? How is this type of drinking even apealing to an alcoholic?? Answer: Its not. So you will be drinking the same as ever if not even more and worse in a few short weeks or months. That much has been proven. You keep saying how you have gotten through a week or two of this "mapped out" drinking like its some great achievment,....thats nothing considering you will have to monitor it the rest of your life. What the hell is fun ( OR SOCIAL ) about that??????

FriendofBill

Earlybird...hey I get you gist,,,but the guys is new and attempts at controlled drinking are totally typical of one seeking to determine if they are truly powerless over alcohol or not. Nothing you say can make him "see" whether he is or isnt.

We, the grateful members of al-anon, have tried a great many of times,t o get the alcoholic to see that they are killing themselves by thier denial, but alas, we had no power.

So...do what we do.......Detach and live and let live.

Chip will find out in his own time whet his story is with alcoholism.

Don S

"...half-baked, ignorant, almost laughable...
ridiculous...
irrational and insane...
ramblings of a very alcohol dependant and desperate person...."

Cool it, earlybird. At this point, I'm more concerned about you than I am about Chip.
Don S

earlybird

Look,...I apologize for being too harsh. Its just that I get so frustrated when I see people hurting themselves and I thought if other alcoholics told him how flawed this plan was that there was a chance he would listen. I mean,..he DID find this site on his own,...I thought there was hope.

But,..I am sorry for being abrasive.

Don S

Hey, earlybird, please understand that I appreciate your passion and your concern about this. The thing I remind myself is that people who come to a Newcomer's forum are pretty ambivalent about abstinence, as we all were at one time. I do think there is hope, I do think Chip is listening and learning.

I don't agree with you that everybody who has been a heavy drinker is going to follow along on a predetermined path, since we probably disagree about what alcoholism is. I don't subscribe to the 12-step definition or approach. We probably agree that someone with a history of heavy drinking has a strong tendency to lapse back into that. But as I read Chip's posts, I believe he is thinking this through and being honest with us.

I don't see denial. I see ambivalence, and there's a big difference. Someone in denial, in my opinion, wouldn't even post on a 'sober recovery' forum. When someone is ambivalent, in my opinion the most useful thing we can give that person is unexaggerated information and the benefit of our own experience. But it's a mistake to project our own experience onto them and predict their future.
I certainly tried various permutations of moderate drinking (by my definition--not very 'moderate' in hindsight!) before I chose abstinence.

Chip, one thing I will tell you from my own experience is that I felt an enormous sense of freedom when I chose to quit for good. That I no longer had to worry about when to drink, how much, whether I had enough or too much in the house, etc. Abstinence is much, much simpler.

Most of my fears about what sobriety would be like proved to be unfounded. And there were many benefits I didn't expect. Once upon a time I thought I'd miss drinking, even though I knew the costs outweighed the benefits. But in reality, I don't miss it at all.
Take care, and keep posting.
Don S

livenletlive

Did anyone get you to stop before you were ready?


And Chip,

I reiterate, what you are doing is what is recommended by the big book. You are trying control drinking and there is nothing wrong with an experiment in early recovery. Only YOU can decide abstinence. And, the time will come for you to make that choice. And, BTW another person in AA, a friend of mine, runs a restaurant sober for 3 years. So, it can be done. It is a matter of going there for business, not pleasure he tells me.

nogard

Hi chip,

hows it going? Have not heard from you for a while, hope your ok. I have been having an interesting time. Its a storm in my body each day. My days nearly always start with me singing and dancing and thats great, I love waking up feeling good. Then the day goes as it goes and more and more I am challenged by emotions and practical events. Its all part of my growth so I stay with it regardless of wether its good or bad, I try not to define it anymore and just work through it. Some days everything is so clear and calm those days are so special when I am like that and then I change and have loads of things to deal with.

All in all I am alive and well and I hope your well too.

Later

nogard

Irish Virus

A question for you Livenletlive:

Where is it recommended in the Big Book that a heavy drinking drunk who has dried out for a bit go on down to the local pub and try some controlled drinking? I would like to read that part. I must of missed that part of Bob and Bill's recovery program. Somewhere between detoxing in a hospital and the Oxford Group meetings, they pointed drunks to the nearest bar. If you can supply page numbers I would appreciate it.

chip

Thank you all for the concern and the posts.

Abstinence is calling me, and I think I will soon pick a date to "try" it. Being "functional" is a natural excuse for not quitting altogether. Quitting altogether seems less complicated than monitoring.

Recently, I met with an aquaintence/customer who had been kicked out of my bar. He had leaned over the bar and attempted to pour himself a pint. Our bartender fought with him, and removed him from the property. He spoke with me yesterday, bruised and hungover. He told me that he was going to quit drinking, cold turkey. He said he becomes another person when he drinks. He said "one is to many, and 1000 is not enough". He told me he wouldn't be back at the pub, and bid me farewell.

I stay the same person when I drink, and for me, "1000 drinks are too many, but one isn't enough". Where does that put me? I'm NOT LIKE HIM. In fact, my staff at the pub think I don't drink AT ALL.

Look, again I say, I wouldn't be here if I didn't think I may have problem.

Tonight, I broke my goal. I'm on #6 beer...but thats it. It's been a really ****** week, and although that's no excuse, here I am. Earybird, I'm too ashamed to send you a personal note about my slip up. My average for the week is 3.75 beers per day.

It's too easy to admit weakness here... I am a weak, lonley, sorry individual who probably needs help. However, I am a resistant, stuborn, a**hole who would smash in the nose of any guy who looks at me the wrong way...let alone tell me I'm wrong. I'm thankful that because of this medium, I can had people like Earlybird keep me in check...without getting in trouble. Booze is talking here.

Earlybird is making more and more sense to me. I've been thinking alot about marking a date in my calendar, and trying REAl sobriety. I've also been thinking about continuing to stuggle with this as long as possbile. I REALLY must sell great amounts of beer to maintian my lifestyle. Being a drinker myself has only helped me, in the past, at getting the numbers I want to see (or, is it my imagination???) For some reason, I worry I won't be a successful bar owner without drinking myself.

As far as "switching jobs", I'd rather continue to foster a drinking problem than give up the lifestyle I give to my family. My wife and kids live very well as a result of my successful business. I hide my "problems" from them, and nobody questions my behaviour.
chip

livenletlive

Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 31, last paragraph. I have the 3rd edition.

chip

I guess I'm doing what most of you have already done. I'm really learning what alchohol means to me. Friday night is a hard time. With my plan, I am learning about myself and what seems to be a problem. I'm still hesitant about abstinence, but I think it is something I will eventually NEED to try.

Thanks for the support, and the good KICK IN THE ASS. I need it. Today's a new day, and I will keep trying to go with my plan for now.....however ridicious it may seem. I think I'm behind many people here, and yes...I realize I have some denial issues. Following my "plan" is helping me realize so much about myself. Last night's slip up (6 beers in 11 hours) is a result of poor planning, and a natural desire to drink heavy on Friday (after a ****** week). This is the kind of insight I wouldn't have if I weren't following some sort of "plan".

It may seem weird to say this, but I am glad that I have the power to stop at 6 beers in 11 hours.....That is something. I'm ashamed about breaking my promise to myself (my plan), and I fear that this may indicate real weakness.
Tired, yet determined,
Chip

CarolD

Chip you are not weak...you are suffering from a disease.

I do hope you settle into abstinence.

It is the only way to get in remission.

Phinneas

Chip, I'm glad your still posting, still trying, still hanging in there and figuring things out.

I fought the idea that I was an alcoholic - addict for a long, long time. There are many who do not believe that acloholism is a disease. I do because I know it is for me. I could not stop, I could not control it. And once I finally knew that I had a disease and that no amount of will power made any difference, I could finally find some peace and get into the solution. You are not weak, Chip, you are an alcoholic. There is hope. There is freedom from this condition, one day at a time. Help is available to you now or later. Your choice. I respect your path and hope it leads you into the arms of recovery.

hugs,

phinny

Irish Virus

livenletlive:

Thanks for the reply.

I figured that was the part of the book you were talking about. The way I interpret this paragraph is to either prove or disprove that a person is an alcoholic. It is aimed at the person who person who attempts to control his drinking and is denying the fact that he is a drunk.

As in the paragraph above the one you pointed out, it states, "Here are some of the methods we have tried" Among them are, limiting the number of drinks, which is exactly what Chip attempted to do.

To me that recommendation was to see if someone was an alcoholic or not. It was meant for someone still in denial and unsure. It wasn't recommended as a way of life.

But it is interesting as in pg 21 4thEd There Is A Soloution wherethey state a heavy drinker can in fact become a moderate drinker. It's quite a mystery.

And Chip, best of luck if you attempt the road to sobriety. Maybe you can ask Earlybird to be your online sponsor if he's starting to make sense to you.

livenletlive

Yep, your welcome. I agree with you on this statement. The text is to portray a method to see if one is or is not an alcoholic. I thought Chip was stuggling with that issue in the beginning.

And, I will have to re-read what you stated about where they state a heavy drinker can in fact become a moderate drinker. I don't remember reading that. I guess we have to keep working due to the fact that we missed many explinations of the text, but this is normal. All us alkies pick up new meanings and missed messages the more times we re-read the material in the book.

And, Chip...I hope you are doing good buddy. Just wanted to comment that not drinking shouldn't make you a less profitable bar owner, it should be quite the opposite.

chip

Thank you people for the responses and support. At some point I may look for a sponsor. I will mark a date in my calendar, and I will try abstinence. This abstinence period will be to wipe the slate clean. If I want to do REAL moderation, I should start with a clean slate. Real moderation is NOT 4 drinks a day. My plan, so far, has been to allow myself to drink what I feel is the bare minimum I can handle at this point. Sad isn't it?

In the short term, I need to develop a better plan for friday nights. I will purchase a combination lock, which only my wife will know the combination. I will put the lock on the fridge each night when the urge for "one more beer" hits. I'm going to continue with my plan, and make sure I get that lock on the fridge on friday nights....before I get tempted to break my plan.

This whole thing is absurd, and it is not "normal". I am not a "normal" person, I guess. I admit this is complicated. Who has a clipboard with drink sheets and estimated BAC levels? Who goes out and buys combination locks? I do wonder if I would be better off abstaining forever. I guess I can't imagine doing that.

Once I get successful at keeping within the goals of my current plan, I will ween myself off some more. I will mark a date sometime in November, and on that date, I'll go without beer. According to the moderation management program, people are suposed to go 30 days without drinking before starting the program. I've been in denial about needing to commit to the 30 days. I still look at it like a mountian which would be very hard to climb. However, I'm beginning to think that it isn't impossible.
chip

earlybird

"I will purchase a combination lock...." ?????
This is getting way too out of control. GO INTO TREATMENT. All these things you're having an insane amount of trouble "seeing" yourself being able to do??? Well,...the treatment center shows you how to do those things. Not being able to see him......doesnt stop billions of people from believing in God. Its called "FAITH". We know you cannot see living the rest of your life without drinking. We know you cannot see yourself quitting. We know you cannot envision keeping a strong running business if you dont drink. We know all this. A day isnt going to come while you are still drinking that you will miraculously BE ABLE to see these things and THEN you try and quit. You must quit on FAITH. I PROMISE you these uncertainties will become certain. The shadows will lift. You will feel an amazingly fresh, welcomed, feeling of freedom. You will be happy. TRUELY happy. Doesnt that sound alot better than screaming at your wife because she wont give you the combination? Your last statement I quoted

"I still look at it like a mountain which would be very hard to climb"

Ya know,...we are very much alike. I used that same exact, almost to the letter, phrase at an AA meeting 3 weeks ago. I was describing my last days of drinking. Sitting in my trashed apartment, crying. Wishing I could quit. I kept thinking over and over again, that I cant quit because I JUST CANNOT ENVISION A LIFE WITHOUT DRINKING.

I then described it as "Standing at the base of a gigantic mountain, with no tools, thinking how impossible to climb it seemed"

You have to have faith. This type of faith wont let you down either. How can not drinking be a bad thing??? You wont lose your business if you dont drink. Why would you? You think customers are going to stop drinking at your bar if YOU dont drink? Doubt it. You said it yourself. Most of the people at your bar would be suprised to find out you drink. So which is it??

Drinking has nothing to do with you being a business savy, well-rounded, intelligent person. In fact,...you will be even more so if you quit clouding up your mind with booze. But FOR GOD SAKE,...QUIT DOING THIS TO YOURSELF.

livenletlive

That's

You would be too weak to do it by yourself at this point or ever for that matter. Why put yourself through the struggle alone. Get to a meeting. Many people go to meetings drunk or drinking earlier. The point is that you go and get some assistence. Many of us are in a "We" program where there is strength in numbers.

And, how are you going to get a sponsor if you don't get to a meeting? This internet forum alone won't help you with your current maladay.

Forget the combo lock and just stop already. Getting the lock is absurd.

Don S

I am going, once again, to disagree with the fervent 12-step approach being pushed so hard here.
Yes, Moderation Management recommends a 30 day period of abstinence before attempting to resume controlled drinking. It isn't BS. They also have guidelines for moderate drinking, and suggest that if you have trouble adhering to those guidelines (which are much lower than what you're doing now) that you consider abstinence as your best option.
The point is that it is a choice, and it is your choice. MM has a very useful program for people who are ambivalent. It is NOT TRUE that you are 'too weak' or unable to do it alone. Most people quit on their own. Many people use internet resources for their support in choosing abstinence. I did. There are other programs which don't view alcohol abuse as a disease. Behavioral approaches include SMART Recovery (my preference) and Rational Recovery. Other approaches include SOS and LifeRing.
Only AA uses sponsors. Many people find the group support of other programs is sufficient.
Here is a link that compares the best-known recovery programs:
http://rrci.net/recovery_spectrum.htm
I can't even imagine why you would consider a treatment program. Try 30 days abstinent and see how you like it. If, at that point, you still want to try controlled drinking then follow the MM guidelines. If you want to remain abstinent--if you choose to remain abstinent, I'd be happy to discuss how SMART Recovery works with you. Check out the other program web sites. Choose one, commit to it, and be patient with yourself.
Don S