Irish Virus

Don S.

Chip is putting locks and chains on his refrigerator at this point to keep him away from an ice cold beer. And you state:

"I can't even imagine why you would consider a treatment program. Try 30 days abstinent and see how you like it. If, at that point, you still want to try controlled drinking then follow the MM guidelines".

Maybe, just maybe, do you think Chip needs something more than a web site at this time?

Don S

Not necessarily, Irish. Meetings might be helpful, but don't minimize the value of online resources.
25 - 30% of people quit drinking on their own, for a variety of motives and by a variety of means. It goes by the clinical term 'spontaneous remission'. And one published study had an interesting "three-stage model of spontaneous remission" based on surveys of heavy drinkers who had quit on their own:

"The initial stage of the model involves finding the resolve or motivation [from] a handful of initiating factors--medical problems, pressure from family and friends to stop using, extraordinary events, financial problems--that account for over half the reasons cited by self-remitting alcohol, tobacco, and other drug abusers….

The second stage … consists of a public pronouncement to quit. … Finding substitute activities, replacing old associations with new ones, developing nondrug recreational/leisure interests, and changing one's place of residence….

The third or maintenance stage … [is] ongoing social support, a growing sense of self-confidence and willpower, and the discovery of life meaning through religion, education, physical exercise, and identity."

I think all of us can find something to relate to in that outline.

I drank very heavily and I've never been to a face-to-face meeting of any kind. I doubt if I'd ever have walked through the door. Online support can be very helpful. Various programs have online meetings; SMART Recovery has a list on their web site; 12-step meetings are available here, and so is a secular meeting.

One comment about the lock on the refrigerator: I don't think, Chip, that it should be your wife's job to keep you from drinking on Fridays. If you don't want to drink, make sure there isn't any alcohol in the house and make other specific time-filling plans for that evening.
Don S

pedagogue

You need to figure out alternative activities to do during your 'trigger times'. Locking your fridge should be less of a concern if you plan another activity, possibly outside of the house. How about going out to a coffee house with your wife? Maybe go to a Borders, browse some books, and settling in for a night snack at their cafe?

I'm sure people can give great advice for things that they do/did instead of going otu to a bar, or settling into their couch with a 12-pack.

earlybird

Don S.....
You have stated yourself in the past that many people use AA and sponsors to get sober and it works for them. Then you go on today, to say that you DISAGREE with the fervent 12-step approach. Why would you disagree??? It works. I respect whatever form of help you sought. Why will you not respect AA? Chip is waay too far gone to sit at home by himself. Waay too far gone to rely on his own willpower at this point. Combination locks? Having his wife keep the key or combination secret?? He has already blueprinted out a failed schedule of drinking that he truely believed would work with confidence only to have THAT blow up in his face as we all told him it would. Do you really believe that deadbolting a fridge is a rational or even wise idea?? He needs to "out" his problem. Go to a treatment center. He has proven he cannot do it on his own. You can see THAT much just by reading his demeanor in his posts. He is about to give up on himself. He doesnt have to come out and say it for us to see that.

Whether it be actually consuming alcohol or mapping out a schedule, or shackling up a fridge, he is all consumed by alcohol. His whole life is wrapped around it. Its not healthy. His mental health is in jeopardy with this approach. Dont tell me for one second that the form of abstinence you were taught had locks, schedules, wives with sacred keys involved in its teachings. These things are insane. And I dont think calling it "insane" is at all uncalled for. This disease is filled with insanity. Its main ingredient is insanity. It counts on its prey being encompased in insanity. It tells us we do not have a problem when we really have a very large problem. Its holds on to its victims for a little while longer even when they WANT to quit by making them believe they can do it without help. By these ridiculous measures chip is taking. All this does is prolong its torture upon its victims.


You keep telling Chip to try abstinence for 30 days,.. then "MM" methods after that. HE CANT GO 4 HOURS WITHOUT A DRINK. How is he going to get 30 days? And if he ever did by some miracle, he would surely hit the bottle harder than ever on day 31.

earlybird

I dunno Don S,......I believe some forms of support only work depending on how bad it got with the alcoholic. Maybe if you told your story here it would help us understand how not seeking help through meetings can actually work with the type of alcoholic Chip seems to be. Just a suggestion.

FriendofBill

Why would you put your wife into such a harmful situation?
She is not your beer-keeper. WHat if she refused to give you the combination and you couldnt get your beer?

Could you accept that and gently walk away?

I must say, I have never seen such an irrational, devious plan of controlled drinking.

chip

Thank you Don S and liveandletlive. You have been very helpful to me.

I've been abstaining today, and I feel fine. I havn't had a beer today, since my last one last night. I'm thinking about going into tommorow as well. I can do this, and I can quit if I want. I am ambivialent, but I think I'm working through this. I'm just taking small steps.

I quit smoking cold turkey 5 years ago.

I will complete 30 days of abstinence in November. Right now, I'm focusing on a no beer weekend. It isn't so bad.... DonS, you are right about the beer fridge. I need to be in control.

I'll post more soon, but I will not be drinking anything tonight.
chip

doorknob

I've seen late stage alcoholics and seemingly hopeless crack addicts get sober in secular programs. I think it is harmful and wrong to represent faith based programs as the only way. From reading this thread, I agree that Chip really needs to quit altogether, but AA is not the only valid method of achieving that.

DK

Don S

Cool, chip! So as you've found, it isn't unbearable to go for a day or so without alcohol. That can be a pretty big hurdle. In fact, people tend to be pretty scared of sobriety. Congratulations on having taken an important step.

Now while you have a day sober, take some time to write down the benefits you've already noticed. One of the first things people do in SMART Recovery is write a cost-benefit analysis (CBA) about drinking.

Most people quit drinking, regardless of what method they use, when they come to believe that the costs of drinking outweight the benefits. I'm guessing that's why you quit smoking. Well, you can use exactly the same approach to drinking. Nobody talks about nicotinism, describes it as a disease, or applies spiritual principles to smoking cessation. It's a compulsive behavior. You can approach your alcohol abuse the same way. Perhaps you will find it useful to embark on spiritual change, or to seek the company of like-minded people. You may seek counseling to focus your goals and get realistic feedback. Those are all approaches that you can use to augment your decision to change your behavior.

Sometimes it's a matter of being more realistic about those purported benefits--are the things we think alcohol does for us really as valid as we believe? Sometimes we aren't seeing the costs clearly: what alcohol does to us. But often ambivalence can be resolved by rational analysis.

Once you've made a firm commitment to change, it becomes possible. It's the change in beliefs we have to start with. And one of the reasons to start with a specific period of abstinence is that rational analysis is more effective with a clear mind. A good reason for choosing a specific period (30 days, for example) is that it neatly gets around that 'I can't quit drinking forever!?' belief. That fear of sobriety issue.

If you want some guidance on how to do a cost-benefit analysis, here's an article from the SMART Recovery web site that you might find helpful:

Four Questions About My Addiction

1.What do I enjoy about my addiction, what does it do for me (be specific)?
List as many things as you can that you liked about whatever you are/were addicted to. a. Where possible, find alternative ways of achieving the same goals.
b. Recognize positive thinking about the addiction as a potential relapse warning sign.
c. Realize that there are some things you liked about the addiction you will have to learn to live without.
d. List what you enjoy about your addiction so you can ask yourself if it is really worth the price. e. Realize that you aren't stupid; you did get something from your addiction. It just may not be working on your behalf anymore.


2. What do I hate about my addiction, what does it do to me (give specific examples)?
List as many of the bad, undesirable results of your addiction as you can. Here it is extremely important that you use specific examples. Specific examples have much greater emotional impact and motivational force!
a. Ask yourself honestly "If my addiction was a used car, would I pay this much for it?"
b. Review this list often, especially if you are having a lot of positive, happy thoughts about all the great things your addiction did for you.


3. What do I think I will like about giving up my addiction?
List what good things you think/fantasize will happen when you stop your addiction.
a. This provides you with a list of goals to achieve and things to look forward to as a result of your new addiction free lifestyle.
b. This list also helps you to reality test your expectations. If they are unrealistic, they can lead to a disappointment based relapse.


4. What do I think I won't like about giving up my addiction?
List what you think you are going to hate, dread or merely dislike about living without your addiction.
a. This list tells you what kinds of new coping skills, behaviors and lifestyle changes you need to develop in order to stay addiction free.
b. It also serves as another relapse warning list. If all you think about is how much life sucks now that you are not doing your addiction, you are in a relapse thought pattern that is just as dangerous as only focusing on what you liked about your addiction.

This is not a do once and forget about it exercise. It is an ongoing project. Most people simply can't remember all of the positive and negative aspects of addiction and recovery at any one time. Furthermore, seeing all the negative consequences of addiction listed in one place is very powerful. On the positive side, no one really knows what they like or don't like about living free of their addiction until they have done so for some time.


Take care,
Don S

chip

Don S

This is excellent. I will do this exercise. SMART Recovery looks more like an option I would like to explore. The cost benifit analysis is a formal way to do what I've been doing today...weighing the pros and the cons.

My day without beer is coming to a close, and I don't know what I will do tommorow. I certainly won't over drink. I havn't decided if I want to try another day without beer yet. Today wasn't unbearable, only a bit unpleasant. It would be ideal if I could go witout tommorow and on Monday. I'm not 100% committed to that, but I'd be proud of myself if I did it.

I am going to pepper the weeks ahead, before my 30 sobriety "trial", with random days of abstinence. I feel like I need to prepare myself for the 30 days. Today was the first day in over 7 years where I havn't had a drink. I don't think having a no-beer day would have gone so well if I did it 4 years ago when I was drinking 12-16 beers a day!! I think I should try and have at least one no-beer day a week before I start my 30 day trial.

My wife drinks 3-6 beers a day herself. She doesn't binge drink though. We have agreed to have an alchohol free home during my 30 days, and she will do the 30 days with me. I guess the hardest part about today was watching her enjoy her beer.
thanks again for the help.
chip

2dayzmuse

Once again, I am an exception to the rule. Losing my health, jobs, self respect and my soul wasn't enough for me to quit. I had to accept the fact that I am powerless over alcohol. The thought of moderate drinking scars the h#ll out of me. For myself, there is no way I would be successful in managing that. I shudder to think. I believe there is no such thing as moderate drinking for an alcoholic.

Don S

Hi, chip,
Let me suggest three days without beer, because that gives your body long enough to get used to the idea (not to mention your brain...). When you've been drinking steadily for a long time, you are producing various chemicals in response to that steady flow of alcohol; your neurotransmitters have adjusted your natural dopamine levels to accommodate it, your stomach produces enzymes, etc. So the first day is a bit of a shock to the system. But after three days things are normalizing.
You might ask your wife to join you in a three day abstinence, too.

Hi, 2dayz, you aren't an exception to the 'rule' regarding recognizing the costs vs. the benefits (it isn't really a rule...). If you were, you'd still be drinking. It is whatever got you to walk in to that first meeting, or post on a message board, or go to the doctor: the recognition that there was a problem comes from that moment of clarity. Many of us continue to drink long after the benefits of drinking have dwindled, simply because well-entrenched behavior patterns are hard to break.
Don S

2dayzmuse

I lacked the willingness to do it to reap the benifits. I was way to far gone to even fathom attempting this method. My brain was to fried to sit down and make a list. I could barely hold a pen and if it met paper, my hand would be bouncing all over the place. When done, I would have a great scribbled abstract of insanity, illegible and making no sense. This may work or be a great tool, but in the stage of alcoholism I was in, it wouldn't work. I weighed the cost for years and still drank. Yes, I drank because of behaviors patterns at certain times, but in the end I drank because I was addicted. If I were to stop I would go through serious withdrawals.

In the end my drinking was more physical and mental than any set behavioral pattern. There was no glancing at my clock and thinking 5:00 PM time for my drink, or the smell of bacon cooking always makes me crave a drink. I was beyond that point. I was trying to out run a freight train and it was h#ll. I didn't want to do it anymore, but if I stopped I would have the DT's and that scared the hell out of me. I was way past any rational or smart thinking. I was a crazed drinking machine feeding an addiction.

The only thing that finally stopped me was I became physically beat up. My body was shutting down. The closest thing next to me was death. For myself, I have a hard time relating to the above mentioned methods. Not to say it wouldn't work for someone in the early stages of alcoholism, but for myself I would never have taken the time to rationally make out a list. I guess what that really means I was to stubborn and wasn't ready to quit yet. Doing the sensible thing wasn't something I adhered to. The truth of the matter is the only thing that stopped me from drinking was the reality of lingering death close by. This would be an extreme example of the costs outweighing the benefits. Yes?

I in no way mean to discourage anyone from making a list in an attempt to change their drinking patterns. In fact, I would reccommend it. Maybe it would have helped me at a certain point in my drinking. Truthfully, I think denial, lack of motivation and not wanting to quit would have stopped me from doing so.

Just my opinion based on my experience. Some people are just to hard headed to think rationally and clearly to do something constructive when they are acting destructive. Something tells me there may be many out there just like me. I was to stubborn and rebellious to do such a thing as to make a list. Even if it was for the better. It may very well be a useful tool in the early stages of heavy or alcoholic drinking, but in later stages...I know it wouldn't have worked for me.

I can only relate to my experience and what would work for me. Of course, my way isn't the only way, but the only way I know. I speak from that. To others out there... if you are willing to give it a try, good for you. I hope it helps and makes a difference in your life. If it works, that's a good thing.

And Don...even though I may not always relate to your alternative methods, I always appreciate your efforts. It may make a difference in someone else's life. The more tools in our arsenal, the better equipped we are to win the battle. That is our common welfare, to win the battle of alcoholism.

chip

Hello,

I've decided to go with out beer again today. Last night, after I posted, I found I was experiencing some physical discomfort. In fact, I had problems getting to slleep because of excruciating chest pains. I mean, I felt like I was having a heart attack. I've been down playing this, but yesterday was a shock to my system.

DonS Your efforts arn't wasted, and are greatly appreciated. I think 3 days sounds like a good plan (no that I got the ball rolling). I can handle the longing for a beer, but I hope I don't have the same chest pains.

2dayz Hello. Thank you for posting your experiences here. I hope I can deal with my problem before I go as far as you went. I can relate to some of the things you've said about denial, alck of motivation and having no desire to quit. These things may be involved with me making a "schedule", or attempting to enforce moderation upon myself. A big part of me doens't want to let it go.....

Fortunatly, I feel like I'm not too far gone. If I am an alchoholic ( I probably am), I'm a functional one. I think I can be a much higher functioning individual. I came here, to this site, because I want to eliminate drunkeness and hangovers from my life. Since coming here, I've accepted the fact that I need to recover, and I must abstain for some period of time in order to do so. This 3 day "stint" is a practice session for the 30 day period which I will do.
I'm sure I'll be back later today...
chip

Irish Virus

I am going to pepper the weeks ahead, before my 30 sobriety "trial", with random days of abstinence. I feel like I need to prepare myself for the 30 days. Today was the first day in over 7 years where I havn't had a drink. I don't think having a no-beer day would have gone so well if I did it 4 years ago when I was drinking 12-16 beers a day!! I think I should try and have at least one no-beer day a week before I start my 30 day trial.
chip[/QUOTE]

Chip:

This is my last comment on your situation as it is futile to try to reason with you about your problem. Unless this is some gag thread, you are an alcoholic. You are a pickle now and there is no going back to being the cucumber you once were.

This is no 5k race where you can "pepper" the weeks ahead before the big one. Getting in shape so-to-speak in order to quit is a ludicrous proposition in your case.

You have drank everyday for seven years and the first day ain't bad. But I'll goddamm guarantee you when you try this moderation management program BS and start drinking again after you have been off the sauce, it's gonna be 10 times worse to quit again.

I know that the ideas of some on this board sound great because that is what you want to hear at this time. If someone said to me that through a web site I can be a social drinker again, I would have said screw AA I'm gonna try this first. So go ahead and listern to enablers and cling on to a false hope that you can return to being a normal drinker. Just remember it only gets worse the longer you prolong quitting. Just hope you come to your senses before you wind up in rehab with the shakes.

2dayzmuse

So was I Chip, so was I. Until I became a dysfuctional one. I stood where you stood now. I don't exactly know when I crossed that invisible line, but somehow I willingly leaped across it and was on the otherside of functional before I even knew what hit me. You can never understand the power of it's progressive nature until it is to late. It's power is truly astonishing to me. The momentum builds and grows until you are completely devoured by it's force. I hope it is something you never come to know. For if you do, in learning the truth, you will surely have lost the things you dearly love. I want to help you understand how powerful the disease is and what you are up against. It's a frightening force. The good news is...there is hope and a solution. For me, it is abstinence. With that, I am once again in control of my life.

findingout

Hey Chip

Good decision! Believe it or not, that's exactly what all of us sometimes goofy, sometimes happy, sometimes sad, sometimes confused, recovering alcoholics do each day when it comes right down to it.

We simply decide to go without drinking when we get up in the morning and then use whatever tools we have that work for us to make that decision a reality. And then we go to bed, get up the morning, and make the same decision again.

There is a sound, logical reason why "One Day At A Time" makes sense no matter what program you use or don't use to deal with any other problems you may or may not have as result of your desease, behavior problem, spiritual deficit, or whatever. You can only live one day at time no matter how hard you try to do otherwise.

If someone has found a way to live more than one day at a time, please share. There are many times when I think that would be a useful skill to have

One Love, One Heart,
Tony

2dayzmuse

Living one day at a time is a wonderful way to live. Works for me. It works for me today that is. Back in my drinking days, I would make the decision not to drink each waking morning, then.... I'd change my mind. It wouldn't take much to change it either. The difference being, I was lacking tools. Yeah...one day at a time is a good way to live.

earlybird

Once again,...you have read my post wrong.

When I said "You must quit on faith" I meant,....faith, as in just the belief that things will get better. Not faith in the "All-Mighty"

chip

Hello Irishviris, 2dayz, findingout and earlybird

I'm still trudging through day 2 here. I'm drinking milk right now. My "warming up" for the 30 days may not make sense to you, Irishvirius, or to anyone else for that matter. Fine, so be it. I started my 3 days here on a weekend because on Monday, I need to make sure I seem normal at work (day 3 will be monday). I need to make damn sure my upcoming 30 days don't affect my work life in a negative way. I will continue to ween myself off beer and "pepper" my weeks with random peroids of abstience. When I start my 30 days, I will still need to be the boss at work. I cannot show any weakness in the business world.

To each their own. I'm struggling here, but I'm trying to better myself. Isn't that what we are all trying to do? Arn't we all trying to be better people?

Becoming a moderate drinker may be a pipe dream. It could very well be impossible for me. I had a hard time with my "plan" because I am physicaly dependent on alchohol. During my 30 days, I might just decide to keep it going forever.....day by day. For now, I've got to get through the rest of today and tommorow.

The obvious question here is "Chip, why don't you start your 30 days now that you've made it to 1.5 days?" The answer is: Because I'm not ready for the 30 days yet. I will be ready when the start date comes. I will mark it on my calendar and prepare for it (mentaly and physicaly). I have some hurdles I need to over come first:
1) having some sober weekends.
2) working sober. I keep evening hours and I usually have a beer with my dinner. I've been doing this not only because I enjoy a beer with dinner, but also to quench the craving of my physicaly dependent body.
3) going without beer for long periods of time, and getting used to the idea.
4) getting over the illusion that my previous "plan" can work for me, because it cannot work.
5) choosing a online support program to help me through it.
6) speaking with my doctor about my stuggle.

Thanks for posting, people. Earlybird, it's good to hear from you. Back to the harsh reality of no beer. It's not unbearable, only unpleasant......
chip