1 in 20
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Rogersville, Tennessee
Posts: 2,659
Jeremy, no I dont know how you feel. All I am saying is that if you want to quit, explore all your options and choose a path that best suits you, not because I or anyone told you to do it a certain way, that choice has to be yours. I cant go into specifics of what I did and expect you to follow, what I do may not be the best for you. You can do it!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Jeremy, you said you are open to anything that works. So what have you actually tried that didn't work? One AA meeting and you're already calling it a cult. Could you please list all the things you have actually tried and the reasons why it didn't work. Don't mean to sound harsh Jeremy, but you sound like the old Jeremy with many excuses, but I do sense more honesty in your posts. Also, asking me if I know how you feel sounds like you feel your feelings are unique, but no; I don't know how you feel but I can relate. That's all anybody can do. John
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: OZ
Posts: 2,055
I have heard it said there are statistics and then there are statistics and then there are damn lies.
Having said that, I would like the answer to that as well, why the high mortality rate. Why do so many people stay at rock bottom. Why do some fight for the change needed to get better and others don't.
Isn't our survival instinct just as primal as I desire to feel better!?
Has an innate self worth got something to do with it?
You are no longer happy drinking...you're no longer happy being controlled by alcohol, no longer happy about the way your life is....why do some fold into it and allow the addiction to win.
It is a good question TDG, I don't want to be one of those statistics.
Having said that, I would like the answer to that as well, why the high mortality rate. Why do so many people stay at rock bottom. Why do some fight for the change needed to get better and others don't.
Isn't our survival instinct just as primal as I desire to feel better!?
Has an innate self worth got something to do with it?
You are no longer happy drinking...you're no longer happy being controlled by alcohol, no longer happy about the way your life is....why do some fold into it and allow the addiction to win.
It is a good question TDG, I don't want to be one of those statistics.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Reno, Nv
Posts: 873
Thanks Jen, I don't know that I will ever forgive myself. How does one do that, I've done bad on many levels, I can't explain here. I just struggle to subsist and live on this plateau we call earth. The planet exist, I ride this rock, but nothing more.
When does and where does one find themselves, I am sober a sickly 7 days, I want to drink badly. I won't drink, but this is a hell. I've called rehab, but they've been less than responsive. Thats not an excuse I could do more., but I don't.
When does and where does one find themselves, I am sober a sickly 7 days, I want to drink badly. I won't drink, but this is a hell. I've called rehab, but they've been less than responsive. Thats not an excuse I could do more., but I don't.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 786
I knew you were an educated guy. So, it is not stupidity that keeps you drinking. It seems to me you know what you need to do but you just do not want to quit. Can not give up that booze party life. You are only 36 yrs old, young...Got a lot of partying to do yet. Change is hard. i am only 49 days sober, what do i know. good luck with ditching the stinking thinking...
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,454
The other way to look at it Jeremy is...this place is full of people that have beaten 'the odds'.
Like I've said to you before, it's not magic - it's just hard work and commitment.
Taking out all the ifs ands and buts the bottom line for each and every one of us is - you either want change or you don't.
If you want change, then you need to start making changes
D
Like I've said to you before, it's not magic - it's just hard work and commitment.
Taking out all the ifs ands and buts the bottom line for each and every one of us is - you either want change or you don't.
If you want change, then you need to start making changes
D
New Life Sober
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 777
Jeremy you cant say ever forgive yourself, cause I know down in your heart will someday. Have you ever put all those list of bad level you did and take one of them and work on it?
For instance, My first thing I am working on is Guilt, it is a really hard to do it but I am working on it cause I want my mind to be clear away from guilt. I just have to learn to let go to the past which guilt is one of my main things in life that I hold on to for so long.
The past is the past, you cant turn back and change those things you did in life, all you can do is make good choices and one is to forgive yourself to carry on to make good choice. Does this make sense?
For instance, My first thing I am working on is Guilt, it is a really hard to do it but I am working on it cause I want my mind to be clear away from guilt. I just have to learn to let go to the past which guilt is one of my main things in life that I hold on to for so long.
The past is the past, you cant turn back and change those things you did in life, all you can do is make good choices and one is to forgive yourself to carry on to make good choice. Does this make sense?
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by Thatdeliveryguy 
I do believe we can get sober, I just don't know how.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 34
Thinking about those stats, I remembered the genetic counselor telling me the devastating news that my son had a 1 in 20 chance of a deadly disease. He was fine btw. But that 1 in 20 sounded "probable" to me.
So statistics can make you feel that it's unlikely or likely but it means nothing. What you feel is your fear. You see 1 in 20 as horrible odds. I see it as better than I thought.
And we have a choice to work hard in our sobriety and increase our odds. Be that one in twenty!
So statistics can make you feel that it's unlikely or likely but it means nothing. What you feel is your fear. You see 1 in 20 as horrible odds. I see it as better than I thought.
And we have a choice to work hard in our sobriety and increase our odds. Be that one in twenty!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
TDG - I understand your feeling about never being able to forgive yourself. In my case, I realized at some point that if I continued to use and lead my current life that I would never be able to forgive myself for my past mistakes. I had to make changes, which started with stop using. It was only then that I could disassociate myself from the past. In essence, I was able to forgive myself because I identified those actions with the 'old' me.
As soon as I dug myself out of that hole I screwed up again this past summer. Now I am digging myself out of the hole again. At this point I am barely out of the gates with not using, and I honestly don't have enough time clean to really evaluate my past relapse. I haven't been able to process everything, and identify the points that I need to forgive myself for. One thing is for sure though. If I don't stay on the sober / clean path I won't ever be able to forgive myself either.
If you give yourself some more time with sobriety maybe you will be able to get to a point of forgiveness. It isn't a race after all. You may need more time than someone else to get there. None of that matters, but the direction you are heading does.
As far as those stats go - so what. First off, I question who all was included in those stats. Was this taken from a sample set of individuals forced into rehab against their will, and they didn't really want to stop? If so, I am surprised it is even as high as 1 out of 20. You have to want to stop on some level or else you are wasting your time. I always found that there was a period of ambivalence when I was on the fence, and part of me wanted to quit but part of me wanted to keep using. Even having a part of me that wanted to quit was enough to get moving though. Over time that part of me grew stronger and the part of me that wanted to use atrophied.
As far as rational arguments against drinking, it is clearly a one-sided argument. For me personally, I was never able to rationalize myself out of using. My AV can always come up with some other, more clever argument that gives me the opportunity to continue using while feeling OK about it. What does your intuition tell you though? Sometimes I think it is more helpful to listen to my intuition, and avoid incessant arguing that is always going to lead to a stalemate with my AV anyway. If you gut says to quit drinking then why not just leave it at that? Why go through all this back and forth with your AV?
As far as AA goes, I go to a meeting here or there, but I am not a regular. However, I have to concur with what others have said about only going to one meeting and then saying it is a cult. You might try a different meeting. I have been to some meeting that very much felt like Jim Jones' ghost was going to show up as a guest speaker, but there are a lot of other ones that were much more down to earth.
Just for argument's sake though let's say that someone did start a cult, and it kept people sober. If joining a cult was going to keep you sober then what is the problem? No offense, but alcohol has caused some severe problems for you. I have a daughter of my own, and I can't imagine being in a position where the state was trying to take her away from me. Even if the cult made me run around squawking like a bird with purple ribbons in my hair I wouldn't think twice about it, if it kept me sober and allowed me to keep my daughter.
As soon as I dug myself out of that hole I screwed up again this past summer. Now I am digging myself out of the hole again. At this point I am barely out of the gates with not using, and I honestly don't have enough time clean to really evaluate my past relapse. I haven't been able to process everything, and identify the points that I need to forgive myself for. One thing is for sure though. If I don't stay on the sober / clean path I won't ever be able to forgive myself either.
If you give yourself some more time with sobriety maybe you will be able to get to a point of forgiveness. It isn't a race after all. You may need more time than someone else to get there. None of that matters, but the direction you are heading does.
As far as those stats go - so what. First off, I question who all was included in those stats. Was this taken from a sample set of individuals forced into rehab against their will, and they didn't really want to stop? If so, I am surprised it is even as high as 1 out of 20. You have to want to stop on some level or else you are wasting your time. I always found that there was a period of ambivalence when I was on the fence, and part of me wanted to quit but part of me wanted to keep using. Even having a part of me that wanted to quit was enough to get moving though. Over time that part of me grew stronger and the part of me that wanted to use atrophied.
As far as rational arguments against drinking, it is clearly a one-sided argument. For me personally, I was never able to rationalize myself out of using. My AV can always come up with some other, more clever argument that gives me the opportunity to continue using while feeling OK about it. What does your intuition tell you though? Sometimes I think it is more helpful to listen to my intuition, and avoid incessant arguing that is always going to lead to a stalemate with my AV anyway. If you gut says to quit drinking then why not just leave it at that? Why go through all this back and forth with your AV?
As far as AA goes, I go to a meeting here or there, but I am not a regular. However, I have to concur with what others have said about only going to one meeting and then saying it is a cult. You might try a different meeting. I have been to some meeting that very much felt like Jim Jones' ghost was going to show up as a guest speaker, but there are a lot of other ones that were much more down to earth.
Just for argument's sake though let's say that someone did start a cult, and it kept people sober. If joining a cult was going to keep you sober then what is the problem? No offense, but alcohol has caused some severe problems for you. I have a daughter of my own, and I can't imagine being in a position where the state was trying to take her away from me. Even if the cult made me run around squawking like a bird with purple ribbons in my hair I wouldn't think twice about it, if it kept me sober and allowed me to keep my daughter.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Strailya
Posts: 8,025
Real stats
Jeremy
I am going to flip your stats for you. So, lets agree that 1 in 20 folks (5%) who are problem drinkers will be able to stay sober for more than 1 year. In the US approximately 8% of the population are alcoholics or have a dependence upon alcohol. Of this 8%, only 15% actually seek help for their problem. In numbers, this equates to:
- 18m folks with alcohol dependence or alcoholics
- 2.7m such folks seek treatment
- 0.9m such folks are able to stay sober for more than 1 year
Lets assume that those alcoholics or problem drinkers who do not address their problem are not staying sober. I think that's fair to assume.
Hence, one can conclude that of the folks who are seeking help (2.7m), 0.9m are able to stay sober for more than 1 year. That is to say, 1 in 3 alcoholics who are seeking treatment stay sober for more than 1 year.
So, really what is the issue here ? There is an incredibly high chance of successfully staying sober if one seeks treatment. We can use statistics all day long to prove our point.
There is a plethora of ways to treat our drinking problems. YOu already know this rationally.
When will you believe it in your heart and take action ?
"Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence and courage. If you want to conquer fear, don’t sit at home and think about it. Go out and get busy."
Dale Carnegie
I am going to flip your stats for you. So, lets agree that 1 in 20 folks (5%) who are problem drinkers will be able to stay sober for more than 1 year. In the US approximately 8% of the population are alcoholics or have a dependence upon alcohol. Of this 8%, only 15% actually seek help for their problem. In numbers, this equates to:
- 18m folks with alcohol dependence or alcoholics
- 2.7m such folks seek treatment
- 0.9m such folks are able to stay sober for more than 1 year
Lets assume that those alcoholics or problem drinkers who do not address their problem are not staying sober. I think that's fair to assume.
Hence, one can conclude that of the folks who are seeking help (2.7m), 0.9m are able to stay sober for more than 1 year. That is to say, 1 in 3 alcoholics who are seeking treatment stay sober for more than 1 year.
So, really what is the issue here ? There is an incredibly high chance of successfully staying sober if one seeks treatment. We can use statistics all day long to prove our point.
There is a plethora of ways to treat our drinking problems. YOu already know this rationally.
When will you believe it in your heart and take action ?
"Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence and courage. If you want to conquer fear, don’t sit at home and think about it. Go out and get busy."
Dale Carnegie
saoutchik
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: London
Posts: 16,205
Hi TDG,
OpioPhobe beat me to it.
Many of those "failures" are from court mandated attendence at (for example AA or Rehab/Outpatients) In other words they are there under sufferrance.
Differrent circumstances I know but a few years ago I was given the option to attend a speed awareness course in order to recieve fewer penalty points on my driving license. The whole day I was there I was thinking "yeah yeah you patronising ****" just get on with and sign my attendance sheet.
That 5% figure is definitely at the low end of things
A much sadder figure is that it is estimated that only 10% of alcohol dependant people ever seek help, due mostly to social stigma I guess. The good news there is that you are one of the 10%
I'm only a little over 60days so I don't know if I'm doing the right thing but I dont attend AA either but take from the program
Congratulations on 7 days TDG
OpioPhobe beat me to it.
Many of those "failures" are from court mandated attendence at (for example AA or Rehab/Outpatients) In other words they are there under sufferrance.
Differrent circumstances I know but a few years ago I was given the option to attend a speed awareness course in order to recieve fewer penalty points on my driving license. The whole day I was there I was thinking "yeah yeah you patronising ****" just get on with and sign my attendance sheet.
That 5% figure is definitely at the low end of things
A much sadder figure is that it is estimated that only 10% of alcohol dependant people ever seek help, due mostly to social stigma I guess. The good news there is that you are one of the 10%
I'm only a little over 60days so I don't know if I'm doing the right thing but I dont attend AA either but take from the program
Congratulations on 7 days TDG
Do your best
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
Hi Jeremy i dont know if your sober ive been ill with the flu recently congrats on any sober time
Jeremy if your serious about your recovery youd be doing things to ensure it rather than your endless cycle and even though you know what the problem is you dont do nothing about it which is a shame i know you go mtns but turning down the sponser ? the inevitable excuse ? it really is a shame as you could be a lot happier and i think you know that too
time for more action
Jeremy i wish only the best for you, but you got to want it not all this talk but action
i really hope you stay sober and find that real happiness
no more excuses no more talk just plain old fashioned recovery
im always gonna be your brother Jeremy pls know i only think of you and your happiness
Jeremy if your serious about your recovery youd be doing things to ensure it rather than your endless cycle and even though you know what the problem is you dont do nothing about it which is a shame i know you go mtns but turning down the sponser ? the inevitable excuse ? it really is a shame as you could be a lot happier and i think you know that too
time for more action
Jeremy i wish only the best for you, but you got to want it not all this talk but action
i really hope you stay sober and find that real happiness
no more excuses no more talk just plain old fashioned recovery
im always gonna be your brother Jeremy pls know i only think of you and your happiness
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Posts: 1,736
Originally Posted by Pondlady
I can't help but feel sad for your daughter.
You can talk to any of the handful of us on this board who grew up without a father (or an addicted father). We'll tell you in no uncertain terms how it warped our self-image & damaged us to the core. How we looked for love in ALL the wrong places (whether it be booze, drugs, sex or all 3). How we thought sex = love so time & time again we gave our bodies freely looking for just a glimmer of affection from men we would be embarrassed to introduce you to in the light of day. How we wound up (despite our best efforts) marrying someone just like you so we got to add divorced single mom to our resume. How, if we were lucky, we spent many years & thousands in therapy just for the chance to learn how to give ourselves the love we so desperately needed from you. How we spent nights wondering (& sometimes even wishing) if it would've been easier if you were dead instead.
I'm devastated for the road ahead of your daughter. If she's lucky she doesn't become just another statistic. If not she's another light snuffed out before she even gets a chance to shine.
God bless her...
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,098
Just wanted to say I have multiple undergrad degrees and two masters degrees too and I think the problem with people like us who have prided ourselves on our intelligence is that we believe
1. We're too smart to be this sick or to follow things like AA (or any program!)that tell us what to do and
2. That we believe we can think ourselves out of these situations so we research lots and write these long self-reflective posts without ever taking action
I don't mean to speak for you, but you seem to be very much 'this way' and I say this because I relate, but you need to take action to break free and see change
1. We're too smart to be this sick or to follow things like AA (or any program!)that tell us what to do and
2. That we believe we can think ourselves out of these situations so we research lots and write these long self-reflective posts without ever taking action
I don't mean to speak for you, but you seem to be very much 'this way' and I say this because I relate, but you need to take action to break free and see change
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 974
Originally Posted by HeartsAfire
She's the true victim in all of this. Frankly I don't really care what you do anymore, Jeremy, but my heart breaks for yet another little girl who is growing up without a father to teach, guide & love her as only fathers can. You can talk to any of the handful of us on this board who grew up without a father (or an addicted father). We'll tell you in no uncertain terms how it warped our self-image & damaged us to the core. How we looked for love in ALL the wrong places (whether it be booze, drugs, sex or all 3). How we thought sex = love so time & time again we gave our bodies freely looking for just a glimmer of affection from men we would be embarrassed to introduce you to in the light of day. How we wound up (despite our best efforts) marrying someone just like you so we got to add divorced single mom to our resume. How, if we were lucky, we spent many years & thousands in therapy just for the chance to learn how to give ourselves the love we so desperately needed from you. How we spent nights wondering (& sometimes even wishing) if it would've been easier if you were dead instead. I'm devastated for the road ahead of your daughter. If she's lucky she doesn't become just another statistic. If not she's another light snuffed out before she even gets a chance to shine. God bless her...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
I think he has already established the fact that he feels terrible remorse and guilt about the situation with his daughter. How is detailing the trouble that he has caused in her life going to help the situation? It is kind of pouring salt in the wound, no?
TDG - for what it's worth I don't think you are the only one here that has ****** up before. I know that I have, and there is a lot of remorse and guilt that I carry around because of it. Self-loathing isn't going to get you out of this hole though. While my DOC wasn't alcohol, I can tell you that there were many points in my life that I would have surrendered a limb to have 7 days clean. Actually, I would have probably settled for just 4 days, because I would have at least been through the worst of withdrawal. Don't give those days up for anything.
TDG - for what it's worth I don't think you are the only one here that has ****** up before. I know that I have, and there is a lot of remorse and guilt that I carry around because of it. Self-loathing isn't going to get you out of this hole though. While my DOC wasn't alcohol, I can tell you that there were many points in my life that I would have surrendered a limb to have 7 days clean. Actually, I would have probably settled for just 4 days, because I would have at least been through the worst of withdrawal. Don't give those days up for anything.
Sober Soldier
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,911
Deliveryguy statisitics are just numbers. They indicate correlation, not causation. They are useful in some instances, and in others they mean diddily squat.
I've had a chronic illness for nearly a decade. An actual pathological illness that for most requires medication to give them any semblance of a normal life. I'm one of the unfortunate ones for whom medication does nothing. I've been told by doctors who have studied this illness most of their lives that my body was beyond repair. That I would need surgery or some other wacky treatment to give me my life back. They actually told me there was nothing I could do.
And yet here I am. I am bigger, stronger, and healthier than I have ever been. And I got here without meds. I got here even though "experts" and their statistics told me I couldn't.
So I don't want to hear that you have a 1 in 20 chance of being sober or that your brain chemistry is altered beyond repair because it's bulls***.
You want a sober life? Get up and get after it. It's as simple as that.
You CAN do it.
I've had a chronic illness for nearly a decade. An actual pathological illness that for most requires medication to give them any semblance of a normal life. I'm one of the unfortunate ones for whom medication does nothing. I've been told by doctors who have studied this illness most of their lives that my body was beyond repair. That I would need surgery or some other wacky treatment to give me my life back. They actually told me there was nothing I could do.
And yet here I am. I am bigger, stronger, and healthier than I have ever been. And I got here without meds. I got here even though "experts" and their statistics told me I couldn't.
So I don't want to hear that you have a 1 in 20 chance of being sober or that your brain chemistry is altered beyond repair because it's bulls***.
You want a sober life? Get up and get after it. It's as simple as that.
You CAN do it.
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