God and non-traditional recovery
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,451
Oh, so you want us to stay on topic.... sorry LF! 
I believe in a higher power, but I'm not using any faith-based program. My drinking was not driven by a spiritual void. I do feel more spiritual now than when I was drinking. But then again, in general I feel more compassionate and connected, in regards to other people and also myself.
I can't imagine God looking down on all that and saying, "Great job, but you really should have done it this other way..."
I believe in a higher power, but I'm not using any faith-based program. My drinking was not driven by a spiritual void. I do feel more spiritual now than when I was drinking. But then again, in general I feel more compassionate and connected, in regards to other people and also myself.
I can't imagine God looking down on all that and saying, "Great job, but you really should have done it this other way..."
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: AA Rooms
Posts: 268
LF I gotcha in the first post and had meant to get to the point after mucho waffling and then had to go and do something.....so now my closing point shoulda been this.
Alcoholism is as old as Baccarus (whatever way ya spell it) and I'm sure there are way more than 2 million recovering alcoholics (to state the obvious). There are many believers in some form of a deity. For you, looking for feedback on a non-structured faith-based recovery (correct me if I have this wrong): bottom line is I think you should start a forum here on SR, you may need permission for that, not sure tho.
I find AA useful for me but I don't like fanaticism that takes the form that AA and the 12 steps is the only way to get true sobriety. I think the only requirement for true sobriety, as in not just a dry-drunk, is self-awareness or insight and the ability to listen to other trusted people's constructive criticism when we push behaviours or boundaries.
I agree with you whole-heartedly about not hiding one light et cetera, however humility for me means a lack of arrogance. As a human being, it's a basic psychological need to feel we have talents, abilities and decent personality traits and it is not arrogance to feel good when these are recognised and acknowledged by other people or one's self.
Alcoholism is as old as Baccarus (whatever way ya spell it) and I'm sure there are way more than 2 million recovering alcoholics (to state the obvious). There are many believers in some form of a deity. For you, looking for feedback on a non-structured faith-based recovery (correct me if I have this wrong): bottom line is I think you should start a forum here on SR, you may need permission for that, not sure tho.
I find AA useful for me but I don't like fanaticism that takes the form that AA and the 12 steps is the only way to get true sobriety. I think the only requirement for true sobriety, as in not just a dry-drunk, is self-awareness or insight and the ability to listen to other trusted people's constructive criticism when we push behaviours or boundaries.
I agree with you whole-heartedly about not hiding one light et cetera, however humility for me means a lack of arrogance. As a human being, it's a basic psychological need to feel we have talents, abilities and decent personality traits and it is not arrogance to feel good when these are recognised and acknowledged by other people or one's self.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
AFI...As long as the folks in the secular forum don't kick me out for my beliefs I'm OK with the fact that there are not a ton of alternative approach believers out there...although this thread has shown me there are more than I realized...which was the point kind of:-)
RaA...feel free to go off topic, I just wanted to make sure I was expressing myself clearly I don't think i drank to fill a spiritual void exactly (at least not initially) but who knows?
RaA...feel free to go off topic, I just wanted to make sure I was expressing myself clearly
I don't think i drank to fill a spiritual void exactly (at least not initially) but who knows?
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by LaFemme 
I also am not sure where I fall on the humility idea...one of my radical transformations is to not be so humble, you see it's been hurting me my whole life. And I kind of subscribe to the concept that God does not want us to hide our light under a bushel. But that's just me
Humility eventually leads to more modesty but is because it makes us more teachable and willing to accept RULE 62:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...grapevine.html
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,445
I like this quote:
Many people believe that humility is the opposite of pride, when, in fact, it is a point of equilibrium.
The opposite of pride is actual a lack of self-esteem. A humble person is totally different from a person who cannot recognize and appreciate himself as part of this worlds marvels.
--Rabino Nilton Bonder
Many people believe that humility is the opposite of pride, when, in fact, it is a point of equilibrium.
The opposite of pride is actual a lack of self-esteem. A humble person is totally different from a person who cannot recognize and appreciate himself as part of this worlds marvels.
--Rabino Nilton Bonder
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by LaFemme
... I have always had a relationship with God and did not find him in recovery.
Let the process of recovery lead you to a brand new relationship with God.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 737
I define God as the well of the human spirit. Religion has no part in that. That being said, I feel that over the years my drinking kept filling that well of my spirit with poison, thus diluting and dispersing away the God that existed there always. The more I drank the more I lost what was given to us all by the process of life itself, which could be described as a higher yearning, hope, faith in the unknown, or just a simple universal energy that has yet to be discovered by science.
Once at the end and at bottom, my well was filled with booze and empty of God. Yet the booze had long stopped working, and the moment my spirit was empty of anything I became powerless. What I read in the BB shows me steps I can take that will help coax back things to their natural order. When the well of my spirit is again filled with the thing that should have been there all along, I won't feel the emptiness inside and therefore have no craving/need for a bottle.
Anyway, since I'm not Religious at all, (not even close), this is how I've chosen to define it. But I can say this with complete conviction; without filling my well again with the "God of my understanding", I would be drinking again in no time. Not for any other reason than this mystical unknown well of the spirit needs to be filled with something, or we simply die.
The more I read the BB, the more it makes perfect sense. What I did was approach it with the understanding that the book was written in the language of the day, and authored by Christian men. At that point it was easy to just replace the Christian references with what I understood. What doesn't make sense to me is how people come into such conflict with this God aspect, nor the act of surrender. A true alcoholic has already surrendered their power to the bottle and were certainly powerless over it; as well the alcoholic dedicated and ritualized their lives to that bottle as if it were a God they actively worshiped. How replacing what you once worshiped faithfully with each tilt of the bottle, with a concept of something great and good - just because it is beyond our own power? Wasn't alcohol beyond our power? Anyway it seems weird as all get out to me.
BTW, on my sober date I thought AA was nothing but a religious recruiting tool. Truly reading this book in December has completely changed my view of this program, and I'm really excited to begin the steps, find meetings, and do the work.
Not knocking anyone who can do it without a higher power, if you can, more power to you. For me, there was no relationship with God happening while I was drinking. Even if that were possible, He would have struck me down with lightning for some of the things I've done drunk.
Once at the end and at bottom, my well was filled with booze and empty of God. Yet the booze had long stopped working, and the moment my spirit was empty of anything I became powerless. What I read in the BB shows me steps I can take that will help coax back things to their natural order. When the well of my spirit is again filled with the thing that should have been there all along, I won't feel the emptiness inside and therefore have no craving/need for a bottle.
Anyway, since I'm not Religious at all, (not even close), this is how I've chosen to define it. But I can say this with complete conviction; without filling my well again with the "God of my understanding", I would be drinking again in no time. Not for any other reason than this mystical unknown well of the spirit needs to be filled with something, or we simply die.
The more I read the BB, the more it makes perfect sense. What I did was approach it with the understanding that the book was written in the language of the day, and authored by Christian men. At that point it was easy to just replace the Christian references with what I understood. What doesn't make sense to me is how people come into such conflict with this God aspect, nor the act of surrender. A true alcoholic has already surrendered their power to the bottle and were certainly powerless over it; as well the alcoholic dedicated and ritualized their lives to that bottle as if it were a God they actively worshiped. How replacing what you once worshiped faithfully with each tilt of the bottle, with a concept of something great and good - just because it is beyond our own power? Wasn't alcohol beyond our power? Anyway it seems weird as all get out to me.
BTW, on my sober date I thought AA was nothing but a religious recruiting tool. Truly reading this book in December has completely changed my view of this program, and I'm really excited to begin the steps, find meetings, and do the work.
Not knocking anyone who can do it without a higher power, if you can, more power to you. For me, there was no relationship with God happening while I was drinking. Even if that were possible, He would have struck me down with lightning for some of the things I've done drunk.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 143
Congratulations La femme on 6 months... go you!
and congratulations to unintoxicated on 90 days
l go to AA meetings every now and then but haven't worked the steps.
To me AA talks about a "higher power of your understanding" and this works well for me, as l'm not really a religious person.
My recovery involves lots of different strategies,
l use CBT, mindfullness, this site (now l've found it, yay!) yoga, meditation, and the meetings l do attend, (which l always enjoy and learn from)
and congratulations to unintoxicated on 90 days
l go to AA meetings every now and then but haven't worked the steps.
To me AA talks about a "higher power of your understanding" and this works well for me, as l'm not really a religious person.
My recovery involves lots of different strategies,
l use CBT, mindfullness, this site (now l've found it, yay!) yoga, meditation, and the meetings l do attend, (which l always enjoy and learn from)
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: usa
Posts: 55
powerless and god
Originally Posted by Dee74
Well, I'm not sure I've seen many people have that expectation here....
I started out this journey as an atheist but so many things happened and converged I decided I'd have to be an idiot to ignore them.
My concept of God in recovery is pretty simple - God moves mountains, but most times He hands me the shovel.
what others make of that is really none of my concern - I certainly don't expect anyone else to follow my beliefs because my relationship to God as I see it is a personal one...it must be
D
I started out this journey as an atheist but so many things happened and converged I decided I'd have to be an idiot to ignore them.
My concept of God in recovery is pretty simple - God moves mountains, but most times He hands me the shovel
. what others make of that is really none of my concern - I certainly don't expect anyone else to follow my beliefs because my relationship to God as I see it is a personal one...it must be
D
As former atheist how did you change your mind?
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,445
Welcome doublecheck
OK I probably should have said agnostic rather than atheist - my bad - if you're looking for a rational scientific explanation you won't find it from me, I afraid
So many things happened - I should have died - I didn't...I logged on here by accident...it's become an amazingly important part of my life...I met the woman who's been my soulmate and my rock by accident and not at all looking for the kind of relationship we have now....I could go on...I drank for 20 years, last 7 daily, but got a completely clean bill of health...
anyway...for me, 'God' makes sense of all of that, whereas 'a series of happy coincidences' doesn't.
I guess talking about whether man is different to animals and why does God let bad things happen are things best tackled in other discussion forums....but on the powerless thing...
it was *always* evident to me I was powerless over alcohol - even after all the catastrophe alcohol bought me, I still drank it...time and time and time again.
I knew I lacked power and control...my entire life drinking was about finding that control again to drink normally.
I didn't need a HP to buy into powerless. I eventually found one to help me stay out of it, but that's me.
I know other many folks here who didn't do the AA thing, and many who did who simply accepted the fact they were not the greatest power in the Universe.
D
OK I probably should have said agnostic rather than atheist - my bad - if you're looking for a rational scientific explanation you won't find it from me, I afraid
So many things happened - I should have died - I didn't...I logged on here by accident...it's become an amazingly important part of my life...I met the woman who's been my soulmate and my rock by accident and not at all looking for the kind of relationship we have now....I could go on...I drank for 20 years, last 7 daily, but got a completely clean bill of health...
anyway...for me, 'God' makes sense of all of that, whereas 'a series of happy coincidences' doesn't.
I guess talking about whether man is different to animals and why does God let bad things happen are things best tackled in other discussion forums....but on the powerless thing...
it was *always* evident to me I was powerless over alcohol - even after all the catastrophe alcohol bought me, I still drank it...time and time and time again.
I knew I lacked power and control...my entire life drinking was about finding that control again to drink normally.
I didn't need a HP to buy into powerless. I eventually found one to help me stay out of it, but that's me.
I know other many folks here who didn't do the AA thing, and many who did who simply accepted the fact they were not the greatest power in the Universe.
D
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by doublecheck
I really wish I did believe in a higher power but I am a common sense guy and can't see how people are different than any other animal. And since the human race eats other animals how can there be a god? I also wonder if there was a god why would there be so many different wars started over religion. I personally wish somebody could prove to me that there was a god and we are not eventually just going to pass away and never be able to think again.
As former atheist how did you change your mind?
As former atheist how did you change your mind?
We aren't different than any other animal. We are animals. We have a neocortex which differentiates us as a species. Just like fish who use gills to breathe are different. It is a point of difference, not importance. (to me).
When thinking in terms of God -- and the very common question -- if there were a God, why does He allow all these awful things to happen?
Food for thought: we regard the world with a human perspective... which is, of course, how we would naturally do so, since we ARE human. I'd be terribly bummed to find out that God is only the valedictorian of the human race... because He would then still only be human, albeit, numero uno. Why do awful things happen? Because we have a neocortex that allows us to label things as such? Do other animals label things as such? Dunno. Never been another animal (least that I know of). So maybe what we define as this, that or the other thing is because of our very nature as the animal we are, and not some intent or oversight of God. But, I could be very wrong. No answers, just food for thought.
Another thing to ponder -- in the "is there a God discussion" -- is something you may or may not have heard:
Do you love your mom/dad/newborn... whomever? Yes? How do you know? Prove it.
Again, I'm not trying to sell anything one way or another... just find the discussion interesting, so am throwing out some things for consideration.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 114
Oh... one more thing doublecheck (sorry all)... if you are into Quantum Mechanics at all, we could look at a simple equation as something else to ponder/consider re: God. I don't know that it 'proves' anything one way or the other, but it is way cool to roll around in your mind.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Singapore
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We aren't different than any other animal. We are animals. We have a neocortex which differentiates us as a species. Just like fish who use gills to breathe are different. It is a point of difference, not importance. (to me).
Yes animals share many of the same building blocks as humans, but there are certain elements of human cognition completely unique. Here are 4 examples of our uniqueness:
*
1. we are the only species on this planet that can combine and recombine different types of information and knowledge in order to gain new understanding;
2. We apply the same "rule" or solution to one problem to a different and new situation
3. We create and easily understand symbolic representations of computation and sensory input; and
4. We detach modes of thought from raw sensory and perceptual input.
In fact the amount of empirical data showing that we have characteristics completely unique to our species alone is vast. In our physiological composition, our ability to adjust reason and principles, our application of morals and ethics, the list goes on really.
When thinking in terms of God -- and the very common question -- if there were a God, why does He allow all these awful things to happen?
a) He gave our species the caretaker role here, along with free will. It's ours to build or destroy. The only real cruelty being done on earth is being done by humans, and if He were to intervene then we may as well be monkeys for a while so He can put the elephants in charge. Perhaps we are here, experiencing all this now to work it out in His grand plan?
Don't get me wrong, not saying I buy that at all, it's just an argument I think we've all heard.
b) God as you describe Him must be conscious, sentient overseer. But what if the term God is just used as a label applied to what amounts to a large collective consciousness, a reservoir of energy produced by us all, as of yet undetected? Something that - by each individuals actions, beliefs and practice - can gain access to the immense power? If that's a possibility then God can neither stop a tsunami nor start a war. Only we, by virtue of individual and collective consciousness, are responsible for kindness and cruelty by deed and by belief.
Possible? I think so.
Do you love your mom/dad/newborn... whomever? Yes? How do you know? Prove it.
we regard the world with a human perspective... which is, of course, how we would naturally do so, since we ARE human. I'd be terribly bummed to find out that God is only the valedictorian of the human race... because He would then still only be human, albeit, numero uno. Why do awful things happen? Because we have a neocortex that allows us to label things as such? Do other animals label things as such? Dunno. Never been another animal (least that I know of). So maybe what we define as this, that or the other thing is because of our very nature as the animal we are, and not some intent or oversight of God. But, I could be very wrong. No answers, just food for thought.
*source Marc Hauser, professor of psychology, biological anthropology, and organismic and evolutionary biology in Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
Binderdone that...I think the point of the post about the newborn was along the lines of you can't really prove Love...God is Love (in my understanding)...in the same way I have seen people "explain" that love is a survival mechanism...proving the existence of Love is similar to proving the existence of God.
Thanks Lexie and MsC....the 6 months mark actually feels like a bigger deal than I thought it would. Weird...I was going to let the day go by without a comment but I actually have an urge to "shout it from the rooftops" so to speak 6 months ago my life was in shambles...things didn't change overnight but through hard work and the support of everyone here my life is turning around. I am so blessed.
Sorry...getting a little teary eyed here
Thanks Lexie and MsC....the 6 months mark actually feels like a bigger deal than I thought it would. Weird...I was going to let the day go by without a comment but I actually have an urge to "shout it from the rooftops" so to speak
6 months ago my life was in shambles...things didn't change overnight but through hard work and the support of everyone here my life is turning around. I am so blessed.Sorry...getting a little teary eyed here
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,410
Doublecheck, I myself am an Atheist and can understand why people would believe in god but for myself, I base my believes in rational and scientific base things. I don't believe people are powerless but powerful when they choose or don't choose to drink alcohol. You don't have to believe in a god to choose. You can go to an AA meeting and always see the someone asking for the white chip for there first day of sobriety and most of them believe in god. Recover general comes down to the person that when they decide that drinking is no longer for them anymore, they will choose to quit. It's hard to quit when you have the same types of bad habits that goes over and over again. Got to learn how to stop or think straight when caving in to those habits when you know it's not going to end well. I know because I go through that stuff too. My addiction is alcohol and it's not as bad as other people here. Binge drink for a few days and don't drink again until 2 to 3 weeks later.
When I decided to quit drinking for good, I need to learn how to cope with my addiction/bad habits with alcohol. Do cave for it sometimes but I keep myself busy or just don't think about it. I also try to avoid some of the things that I always drink around like people or places. It's not hard to do and I don't use a god or higher power to do so. I just use willpower which over time everyone do use to stop drinking. Even if they go to AA.
I will be force to go to AA meets because of my second DUI, I will not like it but I will have to do so to get out of my legal problem I got myself into. I didn't learn my lesson the first time but I hope I will the second time. I just don't want to go through this stuff anymore.
Life is a journey and sometimes we can't control the outcome but you can control your sobriety in life. Just remember you have a son and do you want him to grow up in a house with a drunk of a dad?
When I decided to quit drinking for good, I need to learn how to cope with my addiction/bad habits with alcohol. Do cave for it sometimes but I keep myself busy or just don't think about it. I also try to avoid some of the things that I always drink around like people or places. It's not hard to do and I don't use a god or higher power to do so. I just use willpower which over time everyone do use to stop drinking. Even if they go to AA.
I will be force to go to AA meets because of my second DUI, I will not like it but I will have to do so to get out of my legal problem I got myself into. I didn't learn my lesson the first time but I hope I will the second time. I just don't want to go through this stuff anymore.
Life is a journey and sometimes we can't control the outcome but you can control your sobriety in life. Just remember you have a son and do you want him to grow up in a house with a drunk of a dad?
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