Notices

God and non-traditional recovery

Old 01-13-2011, 07:38 PM
  # 61 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
LaFemme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
Thanks also to Marni

Doublecheck...if you want a well written arguement for Gods existence I recommend a book called "a case for Christ"...the guys name begins with an S I think....I lent it to my sister so I don't have it handy. He's written a few other books...but this was his first one...a lawyer by profession and an atheist he got pissed when his wife "found God" he set about building a case to prove her wrong in the same way he would have built a legal ass...only problem is he ended up convincing himself of Gods existence
LaFemme is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:51 PM
  # 62 (permalink)  
Member
 
Corri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by binderdonedat View Post
We're a tad bit different from animals. And a neocortex is a bit more complex and fascinating than a fish gill, otherwise the fish would be running all the Starbucks, and we'd all be tasty meals.

Yes animals share many of the same building blocks as humans, but there are certain elements of human cognition completely unique. Here are 4 examples of our uniqueness:

*
1. we are the only species on this planet that can combine and recombine different types of information and knowledge in order to gain new understanding;
2. We apply the same "rule" or solution to one problem to a different and new situation
3. We create and easily understand symbolic representations of computation and sensory input; and
4. We detach modes of thought from raw sensory and perceptual input.

In fact the amount of empirical data showing that we have characteristics completely unique to our species alone is vast. In our physiological composition, our ability to adjust reason and principles, our application of morals and ethics, the list goes on really.
Never said we weren't a different kind of widget. But, at base, a widget we are.

The neocortex has allowed us to dominate the planet, yes. It has all sorts of wonderful features and unique abilities, yes. But I think you missed my simple point. We dominate the planet because we can. How'd that happen? Science provides all sorts of lovely answers and data. Limitless and endless conjecture and projection does as well. The possibilities of wondering and testing are limitless. It will never stop because we continue to evolve. Isn't that cool?

That is why I never believed in Him. No God this cruel is worthy of my attention, exist or not.
What makes you think He is being cruel or not? Are not those human attributes? Is that not humanizing God? Whether it is or isn't is fine. Again, the wonder and unknowingness of it all is absolutely limitless.

But some arguments to what you ask might include:

a) He gave our species the caretaker role here, along with free will. It's ours to build or destroy. The only real cruelty being done on earth is being done by humans, and if He were to intervene then we may as well be monkeys for a while so He can put the elephants in charge. Perhaps we are here, experiencing all this now to work it out in His grand plan?
Dunno. There is tons of evidence that monkeys show the same type of cruelty toward each other, including rape.

I do agree that we could be in the role of caretaker of the planet. But whether we are or not, by intent or by mistake, I think nature itself will 'take care' to further its own cause, even if that leads to human demise. Now THAT is cool. It all keeps chugging along, whether we are here or not. (Though there is the argument that if there is no one observing it all, that which IS, has no significance. Anthropic Principle. Which is an interesting POV, too).

b) God as you describe Him must be conscious, sentient overseer. But what if the term God is just used as a label applied to what amounts to a large collective consciousness, a reservoir of energy produced by us all, as of yet undetected? Something that - by each individuals actions, beliefs and practice - can gain access to the immense power? If that's a possibility then God can neither stop a tsunami nor start a war. Only we, by virtue of individual and collective consciousness, are responsible for kindness and cruelty by deed and by belief.
Yep. Another consideration. Limitless.

Possible? I think so.
Of course! That's what's so cool about it.

Not catching your meaning there.
Is it within your experience to say that you love someone? You know that concept, at least in your own frame of reference? Okay. Prove it to me.

But we actually do regard the world from an animal's perspective, down to insects, and even bacteria. We do so as we study animals. We observe their behavior, we follow their patterns, we do what they do (when possible), we experiment with their social structures, their instincts and reactions, hell we even try to coax cognitive thought from them (in the case of primates). Our ability to study animals is, in part, made possible by our human ability to look at the world (and everything in it) from different, unique perspectives.
We observe them, yes. We do not experience the world as an insect, or as bacteria. I can determine, by an accepted set of standards developed by humans, that a tree is a living organism. I do not know what it is to experience 'the world' as a tree.

We are getting a little deep here, and that wasn't my intent. Perhaps just to introduce the enormity of trying to absorb 'limitlessness' ... there is no end to it. That's the only way I can begin to describe/verbalize (and even that isn't close) to what I experience when one thinks of 'higher power.'

Where you go from there is an individual experience... maybe. Again. Limitless. :-)
Corri is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:55 PM
  # 63 (permalink)  
Member
 
MsCooterBrown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Great Outdoors
Posts: 1,992
"in the same way he would have built a legal ass..."

I have always wanted a legal @ss....
MsCooterBrown is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:54 PM
  # 64 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
LaFemme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
Originally Posted by MsCooterBrown View Post
"in the same way he would have built a legal ass..."

I have always wanted a legal @ss....
Bwahahahaha.

A d@MN fine legal @$$ at that
LaFemme is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:27 PM
  # 65 (permalink)  
Member
 
Peter G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 737
Never said we weren't a different kind of widget. But, at base, a widget we are.

The neocortex has allowed us to dominate the planet, yes. It has all sorts of wonderful features and unique abilities, yes. But I think you missed my simple point. We dominate the planet because we can. How'd that happen? Science provides all sorts of lovely answers and data. Limitless and endless conjecture and projection does as well. The possibilities of wondering and testing are limitless. It will never stop because we continue to evolve. Isn't that cool?
OK, gotchya there, but the juries out on evolution being cool. I'm a frikin alcoholic after all, so something screwed something up somewhere for sure !

What you said begs a question (argument) made to me not long ago: If we evolved to become sentient, cognitive beings with developing reason and moral compasses, why are we the only species to have managed the feat? Every organism on the planet evolved as we did, no slower and no faster, and under identical conditions. Why aren't there Wallabees with terrific singing voices auditioning for American Idol, or Killer whales that can ferry me to Vancouver Island for a small fee?

I get it. limitless.

Bear in mind, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, just cuz I love this kind of discussion. I don't necessarily buy a word of what I just said. I do get your original point now, after reading this reply.

What makes you think He is being cruel or not? Are not those human attributes? Is that not humanizing God? Whether it is or isn't is fine. Again, the wonder and unknowingness of it all is absolutely limitless.
Well you could say this boils down to a loving God (as so often described) would never allow such suffering on His children. We were taught as children that he is merciful, just, fair, and loving. You'd think a deity of that description would step in and put the ol' kybosh to all this nonsense. Another case of devil's advocate on my part, since I haven't believed in THAT God since I was 11 years old. There's nothing to ponder there at all IMO, it's a concept entirely borne of superstition and from a need to control our ancestors from living a life of anarchy.

Is it within your experience to say that you love someone? You know that concept, at least in your own frame of reference? Okay. Prove it to me.
Love can't be proven, which is rather elementary, no? It's not a petri dish kinda deal. You would have to draw your own conclusions on a person's love for another after observing their actions. Ask someone to prove this and you'll get all kinds of squishy, corny, nonsense answers - subjectively.

It's a loaded question, of course. Like asking me to prove how awesome my baked lasagna tastes. Maybe there's some sort of biochemical change that can show, by experiment, a physiological change when 2 people are in love (speculating big time there). There may even be a certain part of the neo-cortex lighting up only when two people are in love. And even if I'm right, that sort of experiment still wouldn't prove love at all.

I mean when 2 people respond to each other in an extraordinary manner - a way that CAN'T be explained - that's kinda the definition of love. Also, since love - I would assume - originates from our higher power, guess that means I'd have to first prove God to you before I could prove how and why I love someone.

But I guess that's the point you were trying to make. LOL
Peter G is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 10:31 PM
  # 66 (permalink)  
Member
 
marni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 143
Talking

la Femme, you should shout from the rooftops!!.
6 months sober is a very big deal but even more importantly are the positive changes in the life you're living today.

l don't really get the whole god/no god deal all l know for me is alcohol consumed every moment of my waking life and l use what ever l can grab hold of to keep me sober and that includes a HP of my understanding which is actually the beach because l feel at peace there

In order to change we must be sick and tired of being sick and tired
Author Unknown
marni is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 01:24 AM
  # 67 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 270
Someone got worked up and huffy and then whined to the mods that I was saying that all non-AAs were smoking dope, which is a ridiculous and intentional misread.

The point is to use a method of evaluating any path to recovery by it's successes. The method I suggested is to find people who have passed the 5yr marker without booze or dope, or staying pilled up. That indicates the path is worthwhile to consider.

Kind of a no-brainer really. If you see very few that meet that low minimum standard, then it's a crappy path to decide to take for oneself.

It's true that alcoholics who are doing substitution don't like to examine what they are doing and get huffy when it's brought up, but like the old guy said, "if everyone likes you then somebody is lying."

Just thought it was worthwhile to add to the conversation about not doing things we don't want to do because we don't think we need to do them because we are sure we know what it takes to stay sober even though we never knew that before.
cabledude is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 02:36 AM
  # 68 (permalink)  
Eating protein and life.
 
Untoxicated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Just. Plain. Grateful.
Posts: 503
Originally Posted by cabledude View Post
Someone got worked up and huffy and then whined to the mods that I was saying that all non-AAs were smoking dope, which is a ridiculous and intentional misread.
Sounds to me that the whistle-blower obviously wasn't smoking dope. <--- I can't find the "after bad joke drum-drum-cymbal" smilie, so whatever is going on with this banana happened.

(As an aside, I tried the MMP a few years back for a week or two but never really liked it to begin with so it was back to alcohol for me.)

I'm digging the scientific explanations of God, I've been down that path many, many times. What science couldn't provide for me, philosophy did. That was a long and arduous road that I took but it was also phenomenal and very rewarding.

I came across a gentleman by the name of Sir Francis Bacon and this quote described me to a tee, "A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion."

I gotta hit the gym this morning. (Curls for the girls!!! - that cheesy line never gets old for me! ) Have a great day all!
Untoxicated is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 03:02 AM
  # 69 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
LaFemme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
Personally I thought the smoking dope reference was funny...sorry you got in trouble. But the conversation wasn't suppposedd to be about doing things that we didn't like or what the best method of recovery is (hello, can we say done to death?) Or even actually about what God is...it was simply me at 6 months sober curious if there were more people than I was aware of who believed in God and were pursuing sobriety in non-conventional methods.

The reason I was asking was because I have got a couple of comments on it in the past 6 months and I was curious.



P.s. in defense of my non-aa friends in recovery, both here and in real life, none of them smoke pot or consume illegal substance or even nicotine...most don't even consume much sugar...because part of their recovery is based on healthy living.
LaFemme is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 04:12 AM
  # 70 (permalink)  
Eating protein and life.
 
Untoxicated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Just. Plain. Grateful.
Posts: 503
I'm guess I'm just having too much fun this morning. My apologies for getting off track.

1. I believe in God
2. I don't use AA (but am still considering it)
3. I love lamp

I certainly don't want to turn this into an

Untoxicated is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 05:28 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: dayton, oh
Posts: 487
Awe Schucks, nobody told me about no dope in my recovery circle. It must be a west coast thing.
SH
stanleyhouse is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 05:34 AM
  # 72 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Thumbs up

Congrats on 6 months LaFemme! Well done! Great thread too. I started off as agnostic in recovery. I came to terms with having an HP of my own understanding and I continue to do so as the years go by nourishing that simple understanding from having a rigorously honest dialogue with myself and my HP. My understanding is dynamic and personal in a spiritual relationship sans religion and i embrace those experiences with my understandings on a daily basis. I live in today, I came from yesterday, and I'm going into tomorrow, God willing.

Keeping my spiritual HP simple saves my life. Complications are unnecessary and avoidable, imo. Religion is more of politics and economics, for me that is. Others have their own experiences. Spiritualism is an honest and honorable responsible action whilst living in a world of experiencing life through an unavoidable personal lense; we all refract a personal rainbow of experiences, and I'm completely satisfied a rainbow is a rainbow is a rainbow for each and everyone of us. We're all the same paradoxically simply because we're all so different from each other in uniqueness. I appreciate the fragile and enduring balance. It works for me.

I feel very much just another person in the huge sea of humanity and I also feel very special and unique just like any of us may choose to feel about ourselves. There are billions of us daily getting things done no matter the challenges and although it is often difficult to accept, the experiences of failure is also a normal life event for all of us without exception. Gives me pause to be grateful and humbled for my own challenges, failures, and successes.

Anyways.

Have a great day, LeFemme.

Rob
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:55 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
Member
 
Corri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 114
LaFemme:

I beg your pardon... in the midst of my 'tangent,' I did not congratulate you on 6 months. Woot, woot!!!!! **{Happy Dance}}!!!! I'm at the two week mark myself and I am very much looking forward to a 6 month mark of my own!!

BTDT:

YOU, my friend, are a gem. That was a wonderfully fun discussion... I enjoyed it very much, and thank you, everyone, for indulging us. (God only knows how that may have gone if we had both been drunk -- LOL!)

If you ever want to chew the fat/consider anything and everything, let me know... I'm game! (Although we should probably start our own thread so as not to cross the eyes of innocent passer-bys!)
Corri is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:58 AM
  # 74 (permalink)  
Member
 
jamdls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 2,405
My dad (a devout Catholic who has never questioned God's existence and trusts that God got him through WWII and Vietnam) has been sober for 25+ years-- no formal nor informal program. He was told in his early 60s that if he didn't quit smoking and drinking he'd be dead in a year; he quit both 'cold turkey' and has never faultered. I can guarantee w/o a shadow of a doubt that my now 88 yr old father has never smoked dope and never took any meds stonger than an aspirin (and he had to be in extreme pain to even take that) until just this past year; he now has to take tramadol twice a day because his hip that was replaced about 15 -20 yrs ago isn't good any more and he's too old to have it replaced.
jamdls is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 07:09 AM
  # 75 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
LaFemme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
Thanks Corri I'm actually surprised there isnt a debate thread on Gods existence on here. Its an interesting topic of conversation if it stays civil...which is rare

Judy...its good to know you and your Dad don't do father/daughter Bong hits...that would be weird
LaFemme is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 07:25 AM
  # 76 (permalink)  
Member
 
Kmber2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,058
Congrats Lafemme!!!! Way to go on 6 months.....whoohooo.

I am Roman Catholic, believe in God but not necessarily the Church. I found praying and having faith for the strength to continue on was part of my recovery but it was on me to make the change. For me, God wasn't going to fix me that was for sure but he sure helped me cause I still don't know how I am not dead from that last bender, got out a horrible marriage to meet my wonderful hubbs who is a blessing in my life really and about 1 1/2 months after quitting finding out I am pregnant!!! Yeah, so many years of unexplained infertility and wham this miracle. So yeah.....I believe I got something a bit greater then me looking out. My life speaks it to me

For me I do counseling because it was something I had thought about for years. It was a natural first choice when seeking help because I had so much ummmm baggage that I needed someone to help me with that.

I respect all programs and I will say that if at any given point in time....I find myself no longer on a positive path and what I am doing isn't helping....then I will add on more support I actually find quite a few similarities with what I am doing and AA so I respect the program but with everything in my life I just try and speak from experience.

Again good work on the beautiful 6 months and figured I would just add some of what I am doing
Kmber2010 is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:13 AM
  # 77 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
LaFemme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
Thanks Kim! Great post....I think its awesome you are expecting...it's like a bonus gift for getting sober When are you due?
LaFemme is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:58 AM
  # 78 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,237
Hi LaFemme,
I believe in God and did before I was in recovery...I haven't done a formal recovery program, been to AA once, and might be going to Celebrate Recovery...other than that, I see my councellor once every couple of weeks, practice meditation...I'll be one year sober in a couple of weeks, so whatever I'm doing is working for me!
loveon2legs is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 10:28 AM
  # 79 (permalink)  
Member
 
Kmber2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,058
LaFemme.....coming soon I say early February....Drs say when he is ready LOL

Huggs.
Kmber2010 is offline  
Old 01-14-2011, 02:56 PM
  # 80 (permalink)  
Member of SMART Recovery
 
onlythetruth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
I believe in God and went to AA for many years. However, I did not find AA to be a good fit for me long term, as I do not accept that God or any outside force is in control of, or responsible for, my sobriety. After leaving AA I haven't felt the need to be involved in any formal recovery program. I do like occasionally checking in here to remember "what it was like" and share some of my thoughts with others. I do think it is helpful for people who are new at this recovery thing to have contact with those of us who are past the battle.

Sometimes, they just need to have some hope that the battle does pass.

OTT
onlythetruth is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:56 AM.