Taking5

I totally agree with Tazman's original post and have never heard it put so well. One of my home group members (and I guy whose sobriety I really admire) is an atheist.

I understand people who would like to skip prayers or the pledge before ball games, but I will not let that keep me from enjoying the ball game! Likewise you should not let the religious overtones of AA keep you from taking advantage of what AA has to offer. If you feel "uncomfortable" at an AA meeting because of this, maybe it is just you? Maybe it is to your benefit to endure a little discomfort, kinda like going to the dentist is uncomfortable but ultimately to your benefit.

AA also has "group conscience" meetings where the group as a whole decides how they want to run their meetings. I usually bring up my objection to closing with the lord's prayer here, but I am only one voice. But I am free to start my own meeting with like minded individuals at any time! So far I have not seen the need to do this - I am in AA to save my own ass, not make a political statement.

bugsworth

Just because aa is not considered a mainstream religion does not make it not religious.
The Oxford group from which aa was modeled after was not a mainstream religion but it was a religious organization.

The bb states quite clearly that aa's real purpose is not to help people quit drinking it is "to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us."

God is mentioned over 100 times in the first 164 pages of the bb.

In addition while this debate will rage on forever our courts have made the decision for us...

All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
• the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
• the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
• the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
• the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
• the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
• the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
• the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
• the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
• the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
• the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
• The Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, September 7, 2007, in the Inouye v. Kemna case.

The question remains why not call it what it is? What is wrong with the truth? A program that demands rigorous honesty should be able to admit it's own truth.

Tazman53

Talk away my friend, we can also speak of good that Buddah, Mohammed, Moses, Etc. have brought into the world. All of which man can totally whack up!!! LOL

One of the best meetings I have ever been to was one where a lady who is a Buddist brought up how after a meeting another lady told her that if she did not follow Christ she would never stay sober amoung many other horrific things!!! She was pretty new to AA and wondered if what this lady had said was part of the AA "Dogma"!!!

Now that meeting was all about HPs, but what it did was to bring out NOT what each persons HP was, but how important it was to have absolute freedom in AA to find an HP no matter what or who it was that one could understand of thier own choosing and concept, not a single person brought up thier own religion or if they had one.

A lot of folks let her know that what this person did was not AA, it was her being a religous zealot. That meeting was over a year ago, she is still sober and still coming and sharing at meetings.

Tyler the above is exactly what I thought also, this is where my sponsor helped me immensely, he had me slowly read the third step out loud and then asked me "Does it say what you think it says?" I read it again, slowly........ focusing on each word....

I bolded the 3 words I was not seeing in my blindness, the italics are as this is written in the BB. "the care of " was a major difference!!! I was not becoming a Monk or a nun, I was simply letting my Higher Power CARE for my life and will. You see for me, I had turned my back on my CAREING HP, I ignored Him.

Tyler I encourage you to look up the definition of the word God, read it closely asking your self the whole time you are reading the definition "What religion is there in this definition?" Is there any religion tied to the definition?

Tyler you don't think the above suggestion might be a way of helping some one gain some humility as well as helping them to be calm and quiet as they seek a way to deal with a problem do you?

You know the word humble or humility was not in my vocabulary when I was out there, I thought I was the know all and see all, as alcohol was kicking my butt, dropping me to my knees I was so full of myself and all of my power that I was right up until the end I had no idea that alcohol had me on my knees, I still clung to the beleif that I was in control, until alcohol proved to me that it was my HP and it was the one controling me.

I had to learn that I needed to be able to humble myself to the fact that I do not have ALL POWER!!!! I am not in charge, I have control over what I do to a point, but I am not the one in charge!!!!

Today I daily make a choice of who I wish to guide me, my HP who cares for me or alcohol whos ultimate goal is to kill me.

stone

It is not surpirisng people think it is religious and in some ways it is certainly dis-ingenuous....the BB talks of a Higer Power, sounds pretty open doesn't it? As you read further it says something like "the Higher Power which is God", so suddenly the open concept is not so open. Then it becomes clear by use of language that they mean a Christian God, "Father of Light", "Creator" etc.

In the rooms of AA people talk of using trees or a doorknob as a HP but the BB clearly intends those things to be a starting point that will lead you to God eventually.

Some people try to excuse this narrow approach to spirituality by saying that the authors came from a culture where the Christian God was the only real spiritual concept around and that might be true but the fact is that if you want to "do it by the book" as many AA people pride themselves on doing then you HAVE to believe in a God that is anthropomorphic and is clearly Christian based.

It is no surprise to me that AA does antagonise people and people are put off by the God word..... I say this as someone in AA, who likes AA and works the Program without an anthropomorphic God.


You can't have a book that mentions God and it's synonyms hundreds of times and be surprised that people think it is religious.

least

I've been to many different meetings and have found that it's not really the group (AA) that's religious, it's certain people IN the group that are religious. I just go to the meetings I feel comfortable at and not the others. For me I KNOW AA is a spiritual program, not religious, but some of the members are very vocal about their religious feelings and that can color one's perception of AA as a 'religious' program, even tho it's not.

'Take what you need and leave the rest' is the best advice I've heard so far about AA. I take what I need and ignore the 'members on a mission'.

Bamboozle

My past religion made me feel extremely uncomfortable because I am gay. Understatement, actually. I knew I was going to hell. There was no benefit to that.

Because of my personal experience with religion I stay away from anything that has, in my opinion, religiosity.

No knock on AA, here. It does work for many people. It cannot work for me...and that's okay. There are many ways to get/stay sober and have a good life.

tyler

As I am the person who mentioned "religious overtones", I assume this was directed towards me. If it were just the prayer at the end of the meeting, it probably wouldn't bother me much. However, I mentioned several other things, and could probably come up with more, but choose not to. It is the combination of those things, as a whole, that bother me.

BTW, I'm not asking AA to change for my sake. It is a good program that has helped and continues to help many people. All I'm saying is that there are real reasons people feel the way they do about AA and other 12 step programs and the "religious" componants found there. Personally I have found other means of recovery that I am more comfortable with, as have many others here at SR. In fact SR is how I found these programs. (Thanks SR!!!!) Just because AA works for you does not mean it is for everyone, anymore than Christianity working for a Budhist or Hindu.

As far as going to the dentist goes, I now go to a dentist who uses a new technology that uses high pressure water instead of picks and drills. No pain, even for fillings. I suppose some would say this is taking the gentler and easier way, and perhaps it is. I say it is using new and better technology. I'm not saying 12 step programs are old and bad, just that there are other options out there that may work better for some. Take care.

tyler

I guess my point is that according to AA: it is necessary to believe in God or a Higher Power to achieve sobriety. To be humble and have humality. To accept powerlessness over your addiction.

These are not universally accepted truths. I'm not saying they don't work for those who follow a 12 step program, but I am saying that there are many folks who do not follow them, yet still achieve and maintain long term sobriety. The fact is there are other ways. Just because SMART and other CBT methods have helped me, I am not going to insist that they will help you. They may, just as AA "may" help me.

I guess one thing that really annoys me is the insistance that AA is for everyone. I know not everyone has that point of view, but I do find it very prevelant. Why is it so hard to accept that AA is a good program to achieve soberiety, just as many other methods exist that can be equally helpful? That is what I don't understand.

Gypsy Feet

When people start pulling out words and phrases "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. " and interpreting them, you know what it reminds me of? Church. Of course, we did the same things to people like Shakespeare and Steinbeck in school (which turned me off of books for a long time).

I hate the part were the religious people get to decide how to interpret what the bible meant, which parts were to be taken literally and which parts don't really apply.

The first meeting I went to was in a church, there was a lot of praying to and thanking of god. The next meeting I went to had an ENORMOUS poster on the wall about thy will not mine.

For the desperate, I get that we try and bend the program to be as inclusive as possible, it's all about saving lives. For some of us, this is just more sheep herding in a world made up of fences.

That being said, I will still occasionally pop my head in and see what I can learn, I've always been a good fence jumper .

yeahgr8

I don't want to pull OT, but being from a Church of England background, you know Henry 8th and all that jazz, i have found that the CofE is, IMO, moving with the times and women are now actually allowed to hold ranks in the church and i'm pretty sure gay is fine too, or going to be, can't remember...living in a country with another religion i know which one you are to who would have you burning at the stake...i just think it is a shame....but the Bible still says the same things, the CofE is not rewriting it as far as i know...

On topic now wasn't the BB writtten by the first 100 (wasn't it about 84 cos some dropped out?!) who were definitely religious based at that time, and to avoid changing too much in the BB because it worked for them etc the text has been kept as close as possible to the original?

I'm in GA also and the steps are worded a little different to AA ones, started later in 1957, the word God is only mentioned twice:

1. We admitted we were powerless over gambling - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to a normal way of thinking and living.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of this Power of our own understanding.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral and financial inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have these defects of character removed.
7. Humbly asked God (of our understanding) to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having made an effort to practice these principles in all our affairs, we tried to carry this message to other compulsive gamblers.

I know people who have a problem with the word God but i don't think it is that difficult to explain to people who come through the door...it is a spiritual program and not a religious one, i sat with a guy today who is coming into the rooms, 3 months ago he was adament that he simply would not even be happy to sit in the same room as people who were using the word God...today it didn't seem to bother him so much...even if staunt athiests refuse the simple explanation, more time drinking will maybe make them more receptive...or they will go all the way and die...i guess it's a personal choice?!

Gypsy Feet

There is a third choice you forgot, I forgive you though, its a common mistake. The third choice is he will find another way to recover that works for him, happens all the time.

allport

Arrgggh that is exactly the attitude that gets people annoyed, either accept the explanation, drink until you accept the explanation or die!

Saying you can believe in God. Buddha, Odin or the leaves on the trees is like offering a vegetarian different kinds of meat.

This is not a dig at aa what people do in aa is no business of mine, but is it so difficult to understand that some people do not believe that any external consious entity with the power to affect human sobriety exists.

You may not agree with me (most people don't) but please just try to comprehend that some people have different points of view.

xenodamus

Wow..... ^-----This +1

pennylane2009

For those of us who struggle with monotheistic religion, AA is not exactly the warm and accepting place it imagines itself to be. I like AA meetings, but I won't do the 12 steps, because I can't nor will I ever be able to get past step 2. And yes, it makes me uncomfortable to say the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings. Even at the "less religious" meetings I've attended, they say the Serenity Prayer, which isn't as overtly religious but also starts with a direct appeal to a God I'm not entirely sure exists.

That said, I do like attending AA meetings every week, if only because it gives me a chance to hear how other people deal with life. I think there is definitely a common thread amongst alcoholics -- we tend to avoid dealing with tough things in life, rather than working through them in a healthy manner, and hearing how people are dealing with things in a more productive, healthy way helps me make it through the week.

Gypsy Feet

haha, me too allport, me too

it reminds me of when a first time mother gives birth. You will always ALWAYS hear the phrase "and its not just because I am his/her mother, she/he IS really the cutest/smartest/most well developed baby I have seen"

You would think in this post oprah day and age, people would know how silly it is to assume they KNOW the truth, the one truth, the only truth, so help them cher.

Goat

Haha, beautiful quote! I will definitely be putting that one into my quick stash of snappy responses.

-Goat

Creekryder

I think the degree of "religion" in AA meetings, IMHO, is closely related to the demographics of the area. I believe the more "bibled" an area, the more religion is going to be within the group, simply on account of the mind set. In my area, it is saturated with Christian beliefs. Please, before I get burned at the stake, I believe in most of Christian values, I just do not believe in the Christian religion, and there are significant differences IMHO. But I am not here to debate religion (though I absolutely love to do so, but only on a non-combatant platform and open minds.) My point is that meetings are definitely religion-orientated in some areas, while less so in more liberal sections of the country. The only real beef I have is reciting the Lord's Prayer, which to me is a mass of words, streaming from rote memory, and repeated simply because of a biblical conjecture that Jesus said to "pray" it. I feel uncomfortable at the end of meetings, having it somewhat implied if you don't join in recitation, "what's the matter with you?" Would everyone there be ok with reciting the Shema Yisrael, or a Metta Bhavanaprayer, or a prayer from the Books of Du'a? If we alternated with prayers from other religions, would the number of participants change at meetings? This post is only for making us think, I wish not to offend anyone's belief. This is my observations and personal feelings. I have been wrong once or twice in the past. ;-)

Zencat

I see its not just me that can find how a "spiritual experience" and "religious experience" can get confused. The quote below doesn't help me much ether.

However I think I can see how a person can have a religious experience from a spiritual program. I will admit it may take some time through the "educational variety" of being informed.

Bamboozle

I'll go OT too.


The marked above highlights another problem I have. Women are allowed? Here's what I say to that in an extremely sarcastic tone, "Thank you men for letting us play." It will be far after my death that maybe women will finally be viewed as equals.




I don't see the difference between spirituality and religion. Neither apply to me.


Wow, dude. That's massively offensive.

The folks who say that atheists are the ones who should be more receptive should be looking at themselves instead. How many times have I heard people say that the fault lies with the atheist. BS. How about the "fault" lies nowhere? There is no one to blame!

I tell people all the time why things won't work for me. I hope one day folks here can accept that one size does NOT fit all.


I'm here, I'm an atheist....get used to it.

KOOKS

One of the first things you hear in AA is "You are no longer alone" until that is when the Catholic Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting, and you do feel alone or different as you try to join in so as to not feel out of place but stumble over the words because they are different from the words you were taught.

Isn't the 3rd step prayer a religious prayer, maybe I'm wrong, but if it isn't it's doing a great impersonation of one.

Another thing you initially hear is, "it's not a religious programme, it's not God, it's a Higher Power of your choosing" until that is you are some way through the programme, or have went to a significant amount of meetings to continually hear, "it's God", "That one is God" etc.

Another one "fake it to make it"...... You are bombarded with the 12 steps, AA literature, meetings day and night and so on, this should be sufficient to have you brainwashed into accepting God and the religious conversion by the end of 90 days.

Apart from the religious overtones of the actual programme (BB/12 steps) I think the constant references to how the programme helped people go back to their religion, what they did at church on Sunday, what the priest said etc etc, adds to the culture of the organisation being religious.

This is all very cosy for people of that particular religion, but they wonder why people stop going. Not very inclusive if you ask me, in fact it seems a very exclusive organisation to me and I know of a number of people who stopped going for these reasons.

It's no use saying take what you need and leave the rest. People don't want to feel different or left out, they want to feel part of.

If AA was truly trying to be a non religious, spiritual programme it would need an overhaul and the BB would need to be re written not only to ditch the religiosity,(is that a word!) but to bring it into the 21st century as far as the language goes, but it's not. Why do they lie though?

If you find comfort in religion that's fine and if you are happy with AA then good luck to you.

I don't know about the States but over here there are very few (if any)muslims, jews or people from other ethnic minorities in AA.........is it any wonder?