Aysha

I think you misunderstood. I really dont knoww who you are refering to. Me or sct. Or both. But he was just saying people make those comments to him usually to be nosey and hurtful.
In my case. I was saying people may say things along those lines .... Sounds somewhat like what you just said.
Noone is critisising anyone here.
The way I worded mine is just plain ole the way it comes to me in my head. I am not going to sugar coat my thoughts.
I see nothing offensive in none of the posts here. Not even yours.
Sorry if you felt like we or I was being petty and critical. It was not meant to be that way.

NOMOMERLOTMAMMA

I'd like to be like Pollyanna and wish it just didn't matter who folks fell in love with, or preferred to knock boots with, but, unfortunately, that ain't the case.

I call myself bi. Cause people like labels. I really don't. Right now, I'm in love with my partner who is a woman. I've been married to men before. I'm hopeful that this relationship will be around for the long run.

I'm not out of the closet, and it's an issue in our relationship. Close friends know, but not my family nor am I out at work. Funny though, I'm completely open at AA. Maybe cause I feel safe there. (oh, and here). I will eventually come out to my family, working on that through my recovery work, but I seriously doubt that at this present position I'll ever come out.

My dream/goal is to have a job in recovery, and to be totally myself 24 hours a day.

I"m at a loss regarding the previous poster however. I'll think on it for awhile.

Mattcake

Ghal, I respect your opinion. However, I feel the need to point out a few things

* I don't think that Chi and SCT were being critical, it seems to me that they were addressing the way certain people approach "minorities". There is a lot to be learned from tolerance. All of us here are part of a minority, as most people are not alcoholics or addicts. You have recently celebrated 2 weeks sober. Would it not anger you if you were indirectly treated as a pariah by most nice people who "don't deal with that situation daily" who spurt out politically correct terms in your direction and don't make an effort to keep their minds open enough to understand you? Like you, I would rather not be treated as a circus freak. "Oh, you're an alcoholic!... My friend at school used to be one too, that sucks!". Wouldn't that make you feel as though you belonged in a cage, with a big sign that read "Beware the addict!" Well, that's exactly the way I feel when I encounter such people.

* Which brings about the following: "the right thing to do". Sadly, most of us are taught about morality and tolerance in a very superficial way. The world "tolerance", in this context, makes me cringe. It sounds as though minorities must be "tolerated" as though they were a minor annoyance, a little detour from "normal" existence that must be handled as swiftly as possible. So, yes, I do find it quite offensive. Call me an idealist, but I would rather have people come up to me and ask me frankly about being gay or a problem drinker because they want to know and learn from my personal experience AND form a personal opinion, not because they are expected to.

We are all part of one minority or another, whether we realize it or not. That's a fact. Happily, we are all diverse, not a homogeneous lump of beings. I think that "minorities" only exist because we fear those we perceive as being different from us, so we segregate; I know I've done that myself on several occasions, and I regret it and have learned from it. I conveniently forgot that each and every one of us is unique.

Ananda

I say stupid things all the time without knowing it. Usually my friends laugh at me and tell me what the deal is. Thats how I learn I guess. I'm not so good about it though, when people say stupid thngs I often get pissy!

Mattcake

Yup Nan, I know how it goes. My foot seems to spend more time in my mouth than on the floor :brick But yeah, sometimes that's what it takes to see stuff from another angle... I'm grateful to have friends who put up with me though, lol. And when someone else does it, I try to take it lightly, and wink at them. It's all good

ghal

Matt, I understand your point but please understand mine. I truly believe most people are just trying to be nice in a situation they aren't used to. I admit, I am straight and I used to have a biased against gays that I no longer have(when I was a teenager). I just came to realize that I need to worry about myself and not judge others regardless. I know many gay people and treat them absolutely the same as I do others. I even crack the same jokes around them as I do others and they laugh harder then straight people. Meaning, I will tell a gay joke and they aren't offended. I like people who can laugh at themselves. Trust me, I have been laughing at myself for 39 years The main bartender at my watering hole is Gay and he knows more about me than most. Very cool dude. I guess I just grew up and changed. Anyway, no harm done, I justed wanted to make sure the broad brush rule doesn't apply to all people trying to be nice because there are enough nasty SOBs out there that do bad things to people just for Skin color and etc. Just think, all this coming from a Republican like me ha ha

PaperDolls

I work with this guy who's a Republican. He's actually a pretty cool guy.



Just kidding ghal!!! I completely understand your point.
Thanks for posting here.

fallingdown

Ok so reading the turn this thread has taken, the first thing that comes to mind is, this is the exact reason that modern day conversation in social settings has pretty much been reduced to, "hi, how ya doing, nice weather we're having today"...etc. etc.. I will admit that my head gets weary at times at the growing lists of things people should and should not say during the course of polite conversation. Now I can understand staying away from topics such as religion, politics, and sex in mixed company. And furthermore, there is really no reason for anyone's sexual orientation to come up in normal, introductory conversation unless said person chooses to bring it up themselves. So if I am chatting with someone I just met and they happen to volunteer the fact that they are gay, and I respond with something like, "cool, so are many of my friends and/or relatives or whatever" then I guess I don't see how that could be construed as the least bit disrespectful. It is my (perhaps misguided) attempt to "bond"...now I see that I might come across as an oaf, but my heart is in the right place. If I had good sense and tact, I would just stop at "cool", enough said. But that would be so boring. I guess I'm trying to make two points here. One, when most people bring up the fact that they are friends or relatives with a gay person upon learning your own orientation, that is their way of letting you know they are accepting of your lifestyle (and do not attach anything negative to it as one would "alcoholic" as used in the example above) and point two, I get a little sad and bored at the long list of stuff you're not really allowed to say or talk about anymore. I guess it's all for the greater good, and I never set out to offend anyone with what I say, but I sure get tired of feeling like I cannot say anything the least bit supportive without it being construed as completely the opposite.

PaperDolls

I agree with you fallingdown.

I have to admit, I laughed at the "My brother's sister's uncle's best-friend is gay/black/white/asian/etc...".


I haven't had many people just come out and ask me. I can count on one hand actually. I was never offended by it personally.

I've been with my partner, C, for 10 years now. Where I work, I have not come out and tell many people but I talk about C just as anyone would a husband/wife; what we did over the weekend, etc. People figure it out OR may be they don't, I think I always assume they do but sometimes I'm wrong. I don't "look" gay ...... ( whatever that means ) so people are sometimes surprised. If someone acts surprised I just joke with them about it "I even look like a girl, weird huh?". I suppose that's in bad taste but I think they feel more at ease about it because they know I'm still a nut with a bad sense of humor (gay or not!).

Either way, I just don't care if someone dislikes me for that reason. If they don't like me for that reason; I'm probably not a big fan of them either. I suppose I'm lucky and haven't had to deal with that. Thank goodness! I'm not sure how I'd react.

fallingdown

Thank you, Paperdolls. I just wish people could actually get to know each other. You know, aside from politics and labels. I'm with you, I generally don't take it personally if someone doesn't like me for whatever reason and I don't waste a lot of time on those who judge others based on labels. But I sure do enjoy learning about all different types of people whether I agree with their beliefs/choices/lifestyle or not.

Bamboozle

I see what ghal and fallingdown are saying. I also understand that people who say "it's cool because" they know "X,Y, and Z are that way too" are people who recognize that being GLBT is still a touchy subject. These people understand that there are still many out there who hate GLBT people and those meaning well choose to put up a flag as a sign of peace. I have no problem with that.


My experience, however, has been the opposite. GLBT people usually don't volunteer up the information. Instead, nosy people trying to find out the truth are looking for a hot piece of gossip. It gets old. No one I've ever met in life wants to be reduced to nothing more than a label. If I could avoid all of these people in my life, I'd be side-stepping half of the popluation. I wish I could.

suki44883

Well, my brother really was gay. I believe in live and let live. It really doesn't affect me one way or the other. I have gay friends and I have straight friends. My brother was gay and I am straight. Everyone has to be something, I guess. Labels are used by people who are narrow-minded and rather than get to know some facts, they just use a broad paint brush. That tells me pretty much all I need to know about them right there.

Mattcake

Ghal, thanks for your response I understand your clarification and I think you're right, some people sincerely do try to be nice, no doubt about it. Maybe there's no need to read further into it. And I also agree with you, laughing at yourself is the way to go sometimes, though you need to be pretty secure to do it. However, a few posters in this thread mentioned being bullied and attacked, both verbally and physically, and that's where I think that it's necessary to draw a line. There is nothing funny about it. It does take guts to stand up for yourself. But we all have challenges we must face, I guess, and offer encouragement to those who need it.

Falling, I agree with some of your ideas. The list of taboo topics is long and irritating. I tend to shrug them off though and talk anyway, I refuse to be censored. Maybe you do the same thing and, like you said, as long as your heart is in the right place, it's pretty difficult to wrong anyone on purpose.
You also said:
"that is their way of letting you know they are accepting of your accepting of your lifestyle (and do not attach anything negative to it as one would "alcoholic" as used in the example above)"

Unfortunately, many people *do* attach a negative connotation to homosexuality, very much so. The level of prejudice I have encountered for simply being myself is appalling. The emotional violence at play is even worse than physical beatings, it can scar a person for a lifetime (of course this is true for many other situations). I, for one, really do appreciate your support.

Mattcake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

My experience, however, has been the opposite. GLBT people usually don't volunteer up the information. Instead, nosy people trying to find out the truth are looking for a hot piece of gossip. It gets old. No one I've ever met in life wants to be reduced to nothing more than a label. If I could avoid all of these people in my life, I'd be side-stepping half of the popluation. I wish I could.

Bamb, don't allow yourself to become a label. JMO. Yeah, it takes hard work. Sadly, sometimes you have to don a hard shell - though I wouldn't recommend it. I've learned that, if you like yourself, gossip etc will become meaningless. You know who you are, and that should be enough. Don't sidestep, you'd be missing out on all the fun. And, like some posters mentioned above, not everyone is out to get you. Some do care and are willing to understand you. But you need to give them a chance

Sook.. I agree with you. Labels are meaningless in themselves. They're like an inaccurate map. The just give you a basic idea of what to expect, but you can't really tell until you're on your way. And, most of the time, it's pretty smart to expect the unexpected

Bamboozle

I know not everyone is out to get me, but most people bother me anyway. It's just my personality. I don't label myself, but I can't control anyone else who does. I gave up trying to convince people who won't listen a long time ago. If that's what they want to do, fine. I just want to get out of this hole. Please tell me there are better places to live.

Ananda

I have found that some places are more accepting than others. Perhaps check with some friends to see where they have lived and been more accepted.

The whole label thing....you know we do have to categorize things in order to function in the world...thus labels. But they can be fluid loose tools for organizing info instead of ridgid cages that we can't see beyond.

I am female...so it does help someone to have some understanding of me just to know that. Now some of the things they associate with "female" won't apply...I do make assumptions that people who are accoutants are LIKELY to share certain traits...and engineers are likely to have otehrs, and teachers, etc. etc. I just don't box them in with the label and try not to make too many big assumptions based on that. When my son dated a black woman (and we happen to be white), it was not the first thing he told me about her by any means...not because it was socially taboo or unacceptable in any way...it just wasn't one of the more important charactoristics. At some point it did come up in the description when I asked about what she looked like...just curious not judging!

Mattcake

Bamb, you said it yourself: you can't control other people s opinions. Why would you want to, anyway? Unfortunately, if you're not comfortable with who you are, chances are you won't find much peace. That's a fact, whether you live in WV, Gayland or alone in a cabin in the middle of nowhere.

Having said that, you might find a location where you're more comfortable. Let's avoid that infamous brush stroke... Some cities are known to be more "gay friendly" than others. That doesn't mean that no one will give you a hard time in, say, San Francisco. It also doesn't mean that you won't find helpful, supportive people where you're living right now. Trust me, I've been around... And I find that, as my sense of self-worth grows, the baggage I carry around does get lighter.

You mentioned in an earlier post that the reason you haven't moved is mostly monetary. So how about challenging yourself? If you really do want to relocate (again, that won't solve all of your problems) why not set out to do something about the constraining $ factor and, at the same time, work on yourself? Are there any GLBT support groups available in your area?

Bamboozle

Of course! But there is a difference between describing a person or group and only seeing a person or group as one thing (and using the label in a negative way), and that's my point. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

I was born and raised in West Virginia, and it's not the most accepting of states. Don't get me wrong, we have some good people here (plus plumming, electricity, and shoes [sorry ]), but many move away to pursure new opportunities. West Virginia isn't a destination state (which is sad, because it really is beautiful here). We need more new people with different perspectives to come here to live. In my short travels around, I've noticed that it seems the more diversity there is, the less judgemental everyone tends to be...

Sorry I'm rambling. Hopefully this is the last post I make here. I'm probably getting on people's nerves. Peace all.

fallingdown

"My experience, however, has been the opposite. GLBT people usually don't volunteer up the information. Instead, nosy people trying to find out the truth are looking for a hot piece of gossip."

I know, I have witnessed this type of behavior first hand and I find it abhorrent. The amount of importance some people attach on others' love lives is a pretty good indicator that they don't have much of their own.

But Matt is right, there are people who take it beyond annoying gossip and are downright psychotic about it. I do not suffer these fools anymore than I would someone who tosses around the "N" word. As a female I have encountered lots of men who hate women but something tells me I have not had to suffer the same degree of hatred that Matt is speaking of.

As far as conversation goes, I love diversity in thoughts and opinions as long as they do not contain cruelty. Hell I don't care who you sleep with, tell me what movies you like, what music do you listen to, what books do you read? Do you like to travel? Where do you work? Yeah, I'm nosy but in a harmless way. I like to hang out with people who can "entertain a thought without accepting it" (Aristotle). I sometimes forget that there are some dangerous fools out there. I sincerely wish it wasn't so.

Bamboozle

Sorry, I lied about posting more.

Maybe I'm confused here and misreading the posts, but I never said nor do I believe I have a problem with accepting myself. I am who I am. The problem I have is when everyone else has a problem with it. As much as I would like to say I don't care what others think at all, that's simply not true. I want to be loved and liked and accepted the same as every other human being. I have the most basic and simple needs that aren't being met. I don't fit in here...I never have and I never will. I'm realistic. I know not everyone is going to be accepting everywhere, but I do believe there are better places for me to live. For example, if I don't like rain, I'm not going to move to Seattle...I'll try somewhere in Arizona instead. Thank you everyone for listening to me complain and taking your time to care to reply.