Bozo

You know glazier girl, I have been giving this a lot of thought lately. Thoughts like, are we so consumed with what is right, what is wrong, how I should feel, how I should act, etc. etc. that maybe life is just passing us by?

Reminds me of something I once saw on a website:

On your tombstone will be the date you were born, the date you died and a dashmark in between.

That dashmark is your life, make it count!

Love you kiddo.

bikewench

Hey ((Bozo))...

tanks for the reply... ;o)

Yeah..
have we gotten so far from our true selves that we have to medicate just to exist here..???

How many of us would have to use anything if we jsut did what was true to our hearts in the first place.

Everthing I was reading kept pointing out this schism within ourselves...
Shoulding our lives away... and then using to quiet the screaming inside.

The closer I get to my true self... the quieter my angst gets...

Could we all be short -changing ourselves...???

Don W

Thanks Bike, You bring up alot of good points. I think what you did was bring into play alot of healthy discussions. We need to be proactive in our decisions about drugs and recovery as a whole. Like you've pointed out, making a decision including all sides enhances the change of making a correct decision. Our bodies are so different in their chemical makeup that everyone has different results from the same medication. This is why the VA Hospital, and I'm sure others, use placebos(sp) when testing them. I have also experenced seeing people getting better when they were taking the sugar pill.

shutterbug

Bike....I'm sorry I had such a strong reaction to this post. You are a very intelligent girl and who knows.....I might possibly be saying the same things after a few more years of learning about myself and my illnesses.

Are we just medicating are thinking....no....I don't think some of us are and....yes....I think some might.

In my case.....I wasn't on meds and tried not to be on meds for about 7 years before my world came crashing down.

I wasn't on meds, yet I was high as a kite one minute and so low I could barely speak without it taking several minutes to spit out just one sentence of severly, slowed thought. It was physical too, not just emotional or intellectual...and still is. Now do I think that my negative thinking CAN have physical signs....most certainly. I've seen healthy people who never get sick until someone close to them dies and within a week they are too sick to work and stay physically sick for weeks.

Thoughts and emotions DO play parts in the way we feel physically, but not all the parts. There are a lot of things that go on inside our bodies and our minds are even more mysterious than our bodies. How can someone believe that they can get cancer and need medication, and not believe they can develope or be born with a brain disfunction and need medication?

I do believe there is a wiggly line btwn benefits/harm when it comes to meds. I am off mood stabalizers now and feel better physcially than I have in about 6 months or longer, yet I know if I wasn't on the anti-depressants I would have killed myself already.

It's a matter of life or death for me and many others. If I don't take meds, my major depression/bipolar will literally be the death of me. If a cancer patient doesn't take meds or do kemo then they have more of a chance of dying young than they do if they fight their illness with meds and such.

Meds are NOT magic....I agree. And I believe that each month I'm learning more and more things to be able to cope with my illnesses in a more natural and non-pharmasuidical way....so what's wrong with me keeping myself alive with them until I learn to get my thoughts, emotions and moods under-control?

And the body doesn't always have natural defenses to fix things. If I catch the flu and I am 100 percent positive my asthmatic self will surely die without meds. Should I take my chances? Would you or anyone else who is anti-meds feel bad? What if I stopped my anti-d's and a month later I commit suicide or am so scatter-brained and lacking mental focus that I get myself killed in a car wreck (which I've come close to several times when not medicated or not medicated properly)....would you feel bad for telling me to have stopped taking my meds and for me listening to you and the article?

That's my point....regardless of each of our personal opinions about things at the moment......we are talking about REAL LIVES HERE and I personally don't want to feel responsible for harming anyone else or causing anyone else to harm themselves.

Just my 4-cents...

Hugs and prayers....

shutterbug

And one more thing.....what about those people (who I've known several of and seen for my own eyes) who's minds lose touch with reality and they can't even function in life, yet when on meds they function like the rest of the world and you'd never know the difference.

Would you tell them that they should continue to suffer through life claiming to be the president or being eaten by a swarm of invisible ants or saying they are married to puff-daddy one minute and the next they believe they are married to Jerry Springer??

This has nothing to do with medicating negative thinking and everything to do with medicating a real problem of faulty brain wiring. Why then is it such a big leap to say bipolar or depression is any different for the most part?

shutterbug

And still yet.....do you think negative thinking caused me to be driving to a job site 10 miles away and coming out of a coma-like state 4-5 times on the way there and having difficulty trying to remember where I'm going and why?

This hasn't happened any more since I got on bipolar medication shortly after that.

historyteach

I don't think anyone - the authors or anyone on this site said to unilaterally quit all meds. That would be foolish.
The article spoke of the epidemic of pharacological drug use. There's good reason to question, given the insurance industry's desire to maximize profits and minimize talk therapy. It's quick, easy and can be quite deadly to push these pills out to anyone complaining of being tired.
When everyone is on meds, then it's time to question the definition of sickness.

Now, there's no doubt that many people are helped by meds. And that's a miracle of modern science. But, there's also no doubt that many people are overmedicated. I was one of them! I was literally stoned out of my mind!!! And until I took the reigns, I continued to get worse and worse, as the psychiatrists continued to up my meds and change them. I thank G*D each day I had the guts to say no. Otherwise, had I followed their "help" I'd be a zoombie on disability right now. Yes, I was actually told to go on permanent disability. That's wrong! I've had students who are zoombies too.

As in every case, there is right and wrong; good and bad. Pyschopharmacology is no different. MD's who have very little training are swayed by the company reps who give out free samples and wine and dine them. Big pharmacutical companies have hidden research that hinders the sales of their product. Commercials push people to ask their doctors for certain pills, without saying what for. Everybody be happy!

That's dangerous. For all of us. Cuz shutter, when I was massively overdosed on prescription meds, I was a zoombie driving. Certainly you wouldn't suggest that it's ok for me either, right? I could have killed you in my drug induced distraction too...

Bottom line, there's still room to learn. Always. But,we need to listen to all the information to do so. And the wise consumer is one who is in partnership with their medical provider and who listens to their bodies.

Just my thoughts here.
Shalom!

bikewench

Hey loves...

Shutter... Teach...
Thank you so much for your imput.

Shutter...
I absolutely positively couldn't agree more.

There was a time in my life that the only thing that kept me alive was that I was cycling so fast I couldn't get my shyte together enough to do myself in.... although I'm surprised that my using and the results of didn't get me....

I feel blessed that I am here at all ...


But.. speaking to this topic...

I am not suggesting that anyone stop taking their meds.. or feel bad about taking them...
I use other things to help me cope... so.. we are all on the same level playing field.

I just needed to address the docs and the world continually trying to medicate my mouth shut... and my behavior right...
and my own guilt for choosing to not go that path and causing grief for those around me by my craziness and low downs..

And yes..
some of this stuff will never go away.
But.. I can learn to identify it.. and take steps to head it off in ways that keep me feeling right.

We are all in different places... and I have nothing but respect and love for anyone struggling to make it in this crazy codie world in whatever way...


Teach...
Thank you for your perspective...

Yes.

Forward... with eyes wide open.

pedagogue

B'wench makes a great point about some of the 'numbing' side effects that are often brought up with certain meds, specifically some mood stabilizers, anti-psychotics, stimulants (especially when treating ADHD), etc. This is often a reason why people stop taking meds because they don't want to feel like they are going through the day in a haze. Though, the alternative can be worse.

The unresolved feelings/thoughts/issues cannot be treated with meds, and like you alluded to.....they will just fester if they are not addressed. This is my main arguement against people who try to treat PTSD with meds (or alcohol/drugs/etc). In the short term it might help with their sleep, and reign in the feelings, but it still doesn't solve the problem.

Many times when feelings come back, it is your mind's way of processing them on a more conscious level. It can be scary, but it also gives you the opportunity to slowly work through the demons. I am a strong advocate for professional help during the process, which shouldn't include meds that 'zonk' a person out.

Ironically, for as much as I come across as pro-meds....I am very much not a fan of them in many cases. I just think people embrace them too easily and often because it seems like an easier solution than going into therapy or other alternatives.

-p

bikewench

or they look to them as the only solution....

Ped...
many thanks for your perspective...

equus

I've been interested in reading this because things got better then alot worse for D after he was on AD's. The thing is what I don't know is wheher they would have been worse still without them.

There are few things I'm certain of but one of them is that the brain is an organ, no less physical than any other organ in the body. My hunch from that is, the brain would be as likely (if not more so due to complexity) to go physically wrong as any other organ and also that there would likely be effective medication

The other thing I know for sure is the psychology/psychiatry is a baby science compared to orthopedics etc, therefore as a science it will go through the same learning by error other medical specialities, the same waiting for the public (including GP's) to catch up, the same contoversies and the same revolutions in thinking. We are just at a place in that timeline, working with the best evidence, skills of docs, and information available to date.

I believe certain things cause steep learning curves in medicine and one of them is the ability to 'see' what's happening as it happens. Just as Xray and MMRI effected medical knowledge so will advances in our ability to watch the human brain (which is pretty basic ATM). I think some of that will happen in our lifetime and we will see incredible change.

Until then, my position is not to allow myself to be too carried away with either viewpoint, to make sure I'm well read and play an active rather than passive role in my thinking towards medication. I like researching this sort of stuff, I did a psych degree, so D asks me often what I think, mostly I'm cautious and prefer methodical approaches. I'm watching when it comes to medication - I would BET that most of the medication available is highly useful IF used correctly, just as I would bet it can be destructive IF used badly.

For me correct use should be after other causes are ruled out, together with therapy addressing thoughts and feelings and under careful, regular observation by a proffessional. I think consistancy of care and a doctor that DOES CARE is probably the most important factor in how medication works out. I think people being actively involved in their own recovery is probably the most important factor in how an individual recovers.

historyteach

Ped, Bike, and Equus;
I like what you all have to say.
I also know that some people don't know any better, and trust their health care professionals.
Further, many insurances won't GIVE the option of talk therapy or meds. They want the quick fix. It's cheaper.
Being a participant in your health is the way to go, IMHO. Listen to your body.
I've told my doc that there are two drugs I will NEVER take again. They are listed under "allergic" so no one else can make a mistake, and give it to me, say, under a different name that I'm unfamiliar with. My doc knows exactly why I won't take them, (I was stoned out of my mind, on them), and totally agrees with me.
We are very good "partners" in my health.
And that's the only way I want it.
Cuz, the bottom line still remains that we are responsible for our lives.

Good discussion. And with all the different perspectives offered, I don't think any of us really disagrees with each other.

Shalom!

bikewench

Dang that bottom line...
keeps poppin up all over da place.. ;o)

But.. it is the rock bottom truth...
We are totally responsible for our own lives...
and when we ignore this very basic essential fact is when we get into life trouble...

Equus...
your so right..
When I started recovery ... codependancy was just beginning to be recognized as a contributing factor in family dysfunction.
And the psychotropics were harsh and life flattening if not stealing as well.

We have come a long way ... but.. we still really understand so little in general about the human condition and how we can heal from passed on trauma.

Psychotropics are a tool .. like Shutter said... to stop us from completely derailing before we reach our destination of good mental health and a well functioning life.

shutterbug

Teach....you are right. I've been a zombie on some meds too.

Bike and peda...I agree that meds are too often handed out (and consumed) like candy. I'm just saying that some people really do need them. I do think most docs don't care enough though about how the meds affect their patients. Many docs i've seen don't even listen when i tell them how i'm feeling. So it's up to me to research/read about things and decide for myself what's working and what isn't.

I'm not looking for an easy way out or a magical solution or anything like that. I'm trying my damnedest to get well in every way possible - spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally and meds are just ONE of the things I'm trying to use to help me be able to function like a normal person again.

I had been on 2 anti-d's for a while and have only been on 1 for more than a month now and i'm having a lot more emotional problems and my mom is griping and trying to tell me I need to be on more meds again. I agree that I need to be on another anit-d because I am snapping a lot more these days and crying about nothing at the drop of a hat and am mentally putting myself down more than usual. I can't live like this. I just can't so I choose to take meds and I will continue trying different combonations until (combined with coping skills and continued therapy) I can function 1/2 way normally.

Learning....learning more is always a good thing. I just don't want to be told that I am doing wrong by trying to get well with medications that millions of dollars and research went into making to try and help me. A lot of people find that right combonation where they are not zombies and they are not on the verge of suicide and can hold down a job and keep relationships together and be able to make themselves shower every day. Meds have been true blessings for some, but yes....in my opinion, most docs and pharmacudical companies don't have much concern for what really happens from taking these meds.

I just have a hard time listening to one-sided articles and opinions that don't even list the source of their screaming/bold statements. That writer could be making it all up just to make you believe their own personal point of view.

Learning....i love learning, but I chose to question if what i'm learning is the truth or if it's rather someone else's truth.

make sense?

shutterbug

And just to put my comments in perspective for those reading.....I've hated taking pills my whole life - to the point of near phobia. I wouldn't and still often don't take pills for headaches and things. It took me nearly 27 years to be able to take any kind of pills on a regular basis for more than a month. And I still despise having to swallow them, but I had to learn to make myself b/c of the severity of what was happening inside my head and with my body when this episode began. I would love to be able not to ever take another pill.

I don't agree with the statements that people think it's easier than therapy or other alternatives and I do think that there are a lot of cases where meds + therapy + education IS THE ONLY SOLUTION. I would much rather do therapy than have to take a pill(s) every day! I truely love therapy with a good therapist. And I would much rather put only natural things in my body, but that just isn't a possiblity for me (and many others)

How can you say that none of us have diseased brains and medication isn't needed?

Do you also believe that no one has diseased hearts, lungs, livers?
If I have high-blood pressure and have changed my diet and maintain a regular excercise program and I still need meds to keep my blood pressure from killing me then does that mean I've taken the easy way out and that meds aren't the only answer? That meds arn't what's keeping my grandpa alive right now? (and if so then why are head meds thought of differently?)

Of course you wouldn't, you would want me to live so you would condone meds for heart disease because it's understood. Brain disorders are not understood like other organs as someone else mentioned.

Have you studied the brain enough to know yourself, first hand, that meds arn't needed to help depressions suffers? To say that meds ARN'T the main solution?

Look back to 100 years ago or more and how simplistic the thinking about medicine was and how people didn't even understand that viral germs caused people to become sick. Maybe back then they blamed it on saying people were weak and that's why they were getting sick with other's weren't or that they were just babies and couldn't handle it as well as others (when in reality maybe they took a drink of beer out of the same glass as another feller at the local bar who was sick).

Please don't imply that I or anyone else are not strong enough or hard working enough to fix our problems on our own. I'm sorry to be disagreable in this thread, but I take offense to that line of thought b/c I've worked my butt off to try and fix myself every and anyway I possibly can.

I'm not looking for the EASY solution......I'm looking for the RIGHT solution - whatever that may be for whatever's going on with MY body and MY mind. And I don't think any of us can say for certain what that is.

shutterbug

And Dan....I'm sorry to disagree with you too....but I don't think meds should ONLY be looked to AFTER therapy. Therapy is a VERY slow process and many people would end up homeless if they took that advice and didn't seek meds to help them while they are pushing through therapy.

Or have I misunderstood what you were trying to say?

bikewench

Shutter...

No way would I ever think anything about you doing whatever it is you need to do in your life...

I come from no place of judgement Jenna..

And your points about physical brain disease are very valid... and they learn more and more every day about how the brain works...
and maybe they'll find the answers while we can still get some benefit from it.. eh..?? ;o)

You gotta do what you gotta do...

I'm not questioning medications to take a poke at anyone...
I have several members of my family on meds...
But... as I would not hesitate to question any form of treatment... so I would not hesitate to question this area....

And trust me Shutter...
if the damn things did what they were supposed to... I'd no doubt be on them too.

My bytch with the meds was always that ....
I always felt they wanted to experiment on me...

But.. that's my thing...


Do ya not ken that I feel quilty for NOT taking them..?? ;o)

So...
take a deep breath there gurl...
and relax...

You can talk about your own experiences with them as well and add to the knowledge pool... ;o)

I fully acknowledge how hard your working to get well Jenna...
Don't let anyone make you doubt your path...

equus

Would you REALLY want it any other way? If you think about what an experiment is - it's a process. First you take the best of the knowledge you have, then from that knowledge you make a theory, the EXPERIMENT tests the theory, the results provide new information, then the process begins again. In essence ALL medicine workse like this. A doctor sees a patient, asks questions (adding to knowledge), takes measurements (heart rate, breathing, weight), uses past knowledge from training and experience THEN comes up with a theory.

"Mrs. X your temperature is raised, you have snot on your top lip, and I notice you look near to tears yet I haven't hurt you. I believe you have a cold - take 2 paracetomal every 4 hours and IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST more than 4 days come back and see me."

Knowledge = Prior knowledge of cold symptoms, and evidence on Mrs. X's top lip.
Measurement = Temperature.
Theory = This woman has a cold and no hankerchief.
Experiment = Try paracetomal
Results = Come back if it doesn't work.

shutterbug

sorry if I sometimes come off stressed and/or hostile at times. I just think that there are 1,000's of peeps out there who find relief from meds and SO MANY peeps are already scared about taking meds they don't understand and then they might come here looking for help and read something like this and then that is the final item that makes them become anit-meds for the rest of their lives - when in reality they might be one of the lucky ones who come across the right combo of meds right off the bat. THEN they don't end up suffering needlessly forever.

Who are we to tell someone TO NOT take meds? Or to even suggest or hint when there really are people out there who say they have truely been life savors?

I'm all for being causious about everything and anything, but everything is a process. My thoughts about your situation.....what if you gave up on the the process too soon? What if another year and you and your doc would have found the perfect mix for your body make-up? Then you wouldn't have to struggle even the little that you struggle on occation and instead you might be praising modern sciences "attempts" at helping us???

I don't know. Just some "what if's"

Hugs,

shutterbug

I'm too getting tired of trying diff. meds and having side-affects and little relief, but I'm not giving up yet.....not just yet....