bikewench

Hey gurls...

Equus....
I'm understanding of how the wellness process needs to work...

the points I am differing in... is that there is NO proof that medication is the answer to what ails us...

http://www.psycheducation.org/bipolar/controversy.htm

and what if.... like this article puts forth..... that we are damaging our chances to get well by using these drugs...

Shutter....

I am a seeker of the truth....

the truth means putting forth the accepted and the unaccepted...

and people can do with it what they will.

I personally believe that most head cases can be helped by copious amounts of love and a lot of crying and self examination...


Continually giving my power away to something that may or may not allow me to get a grasp on my thoughts... on my emotions... on my roller coaster ride...
especially when the professionals themselves don't understand or concur on how well these things work...
well.. that's just more insanity to me.... ;o)

equus

Sorry Bikewench, my post came off a bit condescending (sp?) - partly because I had to finish it half way through but thought it would do on it's own - then I forgot to come back.

I think with psych meds there's the element of a baby science and the element that exists in all treatment which is to an extent an individual experiment.

What I'm sure of is that anything which effects the brain's functioning could be both used well and misused. I don't buy into believing that the brain can't physically go wrong, I don't buy into the whole 'It's not physical - it's psychological' genre, my ears eyes and nose are all above my neck so I'm figuring that bit is as physical as the rest of me.

Having said that the brain IS different, it's functioning is influenced by attitude, behaviour etc, it can be reprogrammed with behaviourism, so the whole picture becomes ever more complex.

My doc put me on AD's as a precaution. I've had no side effects, they may or may not be doing anything but I have no objection to being on them. That probably seems horrendous but I did see why they did it - if I'd started to get depressed our joint situation would spiral down quite quickly. I used my own perception of how I felt but also asked my best friend if she could see any difference, she said not but agreed it would be good to stay on them.

As I said before in this thread when D got put on AD's at first things improved but then he got manic! What's hard to tell though is what would have happened without them, it could have been worse - sometimes I can forget how bad it was to get him to go in the first place. More recently getting a job appears to have done more than I would have ever realistically hoped to come from medicine anyway.

One thing I think is worth considering is the state people are in when they first take AD's. Mostly (guessing) I would think it's at the point where they have felt no longer able to sort things out without medication, that can be a very low point and being given medication reinforces the idea. What MUST be hard to weigh up is negative side effects of pills versus negative effects of belief/knowledge that the pills are needed. For people taking medication for the second time there's a history of the first and either the awareness they're back in the same place or a realisation that the first treatment didn't help - again that's no small blow psychologically.

I'd still come down on the side of patient's informed consent and active participation in treatment, whether that treatment is medication or soemthing else. I think a large part of what matters is the relationship between doctor and patient - it's that relationship which can make bailing out if the wrong thing has been done easier and a more precise individual experimental process.

As for a more global experimental process - Yep, I think there's truth in that but no more so than in any new or realtively new area which is why I think patient awareness and informed consent matter so much.

bikewench

Hey E...

Meh...
I took no umbrage... ;o)


For sure...
psychotropics are a baby science... as is mental illness overall...

but.. as the link I provided prooves...
even within the psych society... the controvery around the benefits of meds is huge...

what if the meds make us go crazier...?

yeah.. they help one or two...
but what about the overall plethora of evidence that ....
once someone starts taking meds... it's just a continual game of trying to adjust them and stay one step ahead of life and our own heads...
and what about what they say about making us cycle faster...

what are we gonna do about that...
just up the meds...??

I don't know...
I'm not going to pursue this topic any further.. because I've worked it out for myself... and I'm thinking that I'm just making other's uneasy who aren't willing to look at this the way I am...

As long as we get better...

that's the bottom line...

equus

I'm glad you raised the topic - my jury is still out and it was good to think about it.

What can I say? - sometimes sitting on the fence seems the best option!

bikewench

Yes it does...

now..





... I just have to find a solution for picket fence imprints and numb butt ...

shutterbug

True.....I believe they can be HELPED, but not CURED (in my opinion).

I totally agree....well said.

I've read (and been told by docs) that this happens a lot which is why most bipolars need to be on both anti-d's AND mood stabalizers. Only being an AD's can cause the mania to come on when it normally wouldn't have and sometimes stronger than it normally would have.

With most meds there is never a 100 percent guarentee. Even in fighting a common virus. Anti-biotics have been around for decades and yet there are often times when one AB will fail and another will have to be tried and then sometimes another before the virus is killed. And Just b/c one AB didn't work for you one time....that doesn't mean it might not be just the thing to do the trick the next.

Just about EVERYTHING in life is trial and error (experimentation). We are complex beings and our body chemistry's are as unique as snowflakes so until the day comes when science gets so advanced that every different aspect of each one of us can be pin-pointed then medicine (not just head meds) will remain a trial and error process. IMO

There are huge controversies about a wide variety of things in life: abortion for one. Just because I don't agree with abortion (for the most part) does that mean I think someone else is wrong for making that decision in their life? No....there life = their choice.

Go crazier? I actually do wonder about this one.

I think they help more than one or two.

"overall plethora of evidence" --- what evidence?

"continual game of trying to ....stay one step ahead" --- isn't this what life is about? Arn't we all doing this regardless of whether we are mentally ill or not? Regardless of if we are taking meds or not?

meds "making us cycle faster"? --- I haven't heard this one. And for me it is most definetly not true. I typically only cycle 1-2 a month instead of several times a day like I was before meds.

I think you make some valid points, even if it may not seem as though I think that....I do. Caution about anything...expecially meds is a good thing. I just disagree with the idea that meds period is a bad thing for everyone. We all have to make up our own minds. Your opinions are not wrong, they are just your opinions and who really knows who's right or wrong. These things are so complex. Just look at Phen-phen for example....seemed like a prayer to obesity and dieting for millions, yet ended up being damaging for many. And even though I never developed heart or lung problems from it....I believe it had a lot of other negative affects on my body than has been proven or even acknowledged since I was as healthy and fit as an ox until I went on the drug for about 6 months. Who's to say that some head meds won't be found to have the same problems with them? I guess, I'm just so miserable that I'm willing to chance future health problems to be able to try and find a med that helps me survive right now. Because if I kill myself then I won't have any future health problems to worry about anyway. right?

Bike....I think this discussion is a very good discussion to have. it never hurts too look at other's points of view. It doesn't mean that we all have to agree at the end though.

Actually.....may sound funny to hear me say, but I actually fear anti-biotics more than I do head meds? Why? because in our world of running to the doctor at the first sign of a cough or sinus congestion......the human race is becoming more and more tolerant to anti-biotics with every dose and every generation. Which to me means total disaster in the end where illnesses that were once easy to control become killing machines b/c they have evolved to survive against these medicines. The flu is another in my opinion. I don't take a flu shot, never have and prolly never will, even though I am one of those at "high risk" b/c of my severe asthma. Maybe I'm wrong about this one, I'm not sure, but I don't think I'm wrong about anti-biotics (and I've spent 6 months to a year at a time with sinitus/bronchitis and other upper respiratory infections). If I'm near my death bed....then give me an anti-biotic otherwise I'd rather stick to more natural remedies and good-old "tough it out". Why? Because I can live with it. Depresssion, on the other hand, - this kind of depression -- I can't live with.

And you're not making me uneasy....I just think we need to be careful when telling others what they should or shouldn't do b/c we are all different ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves. Maybe I'm wrong. But I personally get sick at my stomach whenever I see Tom Cruise now b/c he is so narrow-minded about head meds and thinks that proper "diet and excersize" will cure any depression which, IMO, is a grossly, mis-led statement on his part and b/c of his celebrity status people are more likely to listen to him and believe he knows what he's saying. I think he's wrong, when it comes to adult medication use. Head meds is NOT equal to drug abuse as he has said. Although, I do agree in that much more caution should be used with handing out head meds to children.

Anyway....who's to really say....I could be totally wrong and grossly mis-guided myself.

Stay strong though....I respect you and your opinions and your opinions matter.

Hugs,
Jenna

shutterbug

Equus..BTW...I love that quote by Dan!

shutterbug

That's hilarious!

bikewench

((Jenna..))

This thread has probably made me the uneasiest of us all...

I have skirted this issue for so long.

Excellent post...

It's obvious that I am resistant to meds.... ;o)
gawd only knows why.. cause I've messed myself up way more probably by self medicating...
but.. it's a control thing... I'm sure...


Mahhh...
I'm so tired of all this...

I'd dearly love to take a pill to make my life run on an even keel...

I just wish they had it down better.

And don't get me going about Cruise...
I seriously think that man needs a program...


I will agree with him that suppliments and excercise do go a long way to feeling better... but.. it does not address the reccurrance of memories, thoughts.. things that trigger me... bring up feelings...

Those are what I have self medicated.. and I realize they don't have medicine for thoughts... but.. they can flatten an affect of a person so that the thoughts/memories ellicit no response...

This is the crux of the whole issue...

levels of upset...

bah...
round and round..



Anyway.. like I said.. taking a break from this topic...

I've gotten lots of different perspectives... and I thank you all for bearing with me... and sharing your thoughts...

Blessings... and loving thoughts...

shutterbug

I could tell that this has made you uneasy, but it really is good to talk about it all, I think.

I know that with me....my aunt (who was like my mom and who I was most like in my family) died of a prescription over-dose in 2001. It took me a while to be able to make myself take anything on a regular basis. I still can't make myself take my preventative asthma meds regularly which is prolly most important in keeping me alive, but I just can't. I try sometimes, but always fall off of them.

I had always had a sort of phobia about taking any meds, for all my life, and her death just made it worse. I have horribly memories of my grandmother (now addicted to prescription meds herself and says "I don't care if I'm addicted")....of her trying to MAKE me learn to swallow pills. It doesn't sound like it would be, but it was a very tramatic experience for me and sometimes I still have trouble swallowing them b/c of it.

I totally understand your thoughts about self-medicating and control.


This actually made me laugh out loud!!!


Ditto.

Bike....I think you've been VERY strong in letting us all chime in with opposing views. When you're in the minorty it's often a tough place to be, but you have remained strong and I respect you tremendously for that.

luv U

bikewench

back at you Shutter.. ;o)