Five

Thank you Eq.

I find (although he is a bit harsh at times) the work of Stanton Peele (who I would class as good science) been priceless.

minnie

Five, I've been reading a lot of Stanton's stuff recently for some reason.

I think he's onto something in a big way.

Live

I was 40 years old, more or less, and had NEVER witnessed or been exposed to alcoholism. I didn't know what the craziness was about, where it was coming from, what to do, what not to do....I had NO understanding. So...yes, I came from a sheltered life up until that point. I had to be educated about alot of things. And my education continues.

I did appreciate the point made that the principle of AA/al-anon is ATTRACTION.
I went to AA and read the big book like crazy trying to understand my exA (codie, I know). I learned some valuable things there. I have learned valuable things from other sources. There are as many paths as there are individuals.
To each his own.

And yes, I agree with Equus, there is a great opportunity here to demonstrate problem resolution, with respect and cooperation.

equus

Blah!! I can't get on with him at all! It's like he's angry and fighting rather than objective. I know though there are lots that do find him helpful. Whoops - errrrr..... I'm not knocking it.... :uzi2:

Five

Minnie - o boy, yes.

His 'theory' has been tried to be wiped off the face of addiction treatment - but I do believe its as close as I am gonna get to what happened to me back when I was drinking.

He uses the vallient study to powerful effect. And his work on natural remission is bloody, ruddy good.

DesertEyes

You are absolutely correct, and you are shining example of someone who shares their ESH on a daily basis. Now take a moment and think about _who_ you are sharing with. Just go back thru your posts for a week or so and look at _who_ you are posting to. Most of your posts are to people who are in a great deal of pain. Look at all the folks on this board and you will see that _all_ of us arrived here because we were in pain. And the reason we stay is because we found answers to the problems that cause us pain in our lives.

All the forums on this board are for people in pain. And sharing our ESH with each other is how we all get better. Perhaps you never noticed, but you are one of the main reasons newcomers keep coming back here, because you reach out with kindness and compassion to those who are in pain.

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Nope. My position that "this forum exists for the newcomer" has no convoluted meaning. The real question is _who_ is going to be here for the newcomer when they arrive? If you look around at the other folks who share here you will notice that _all_ of us arrived as newcomers at one time. As I told Denny above, you are also one of those people who keeps attracting the newcomers as a result of your kindness and compassion. If it weren't for newcomers who stick around here there would be no answers for the newcomers who arrive today.

If you all would take a moment to take a deep breath you might notice that what I'm doing is thanking you for taking the time to reach out to those in pain. It was people just like you who saved my life not too long ago, and for that I will be forever grateful. So how about you quit pounding on my head and accept my thanks?

Go take a look. Check out how many newcomers post over there and then look at how many newcomers drop _directly_ into this forum, or the other forums and never post in the "Newcomer forum". Take a look at how many newcomers post in the middle of a thread that is two years old, or in the middle of a multi-page thread where nobody ever sees them. Look at how many spouses post in the ACoA forum cuz their "A" is the child of alcoholics.

This _entire website_ is for people who are in pain, and they will arrive in far too much pain to take the time and figure out which forum means what, never mind whether they belong here or there. That's why this forum, and this entire website, is for the newcomer, because they are the ones in great pain that _need_ this forum.

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I didn't write that I never used the word "wait", nor did I imply it. I listed the steps in the order they were written. So please don't pound on my head for simply following the numbers in the book.

I didn't write that either. I wrote in parenthesis "that's whey there are sponsors" (pardon the spelling mistake) I never said the word "with", nor did I imply it.

Well of course. Have you asked them why they go to a meeting where there's newcomers instead of just going out to coffee with each other? Have you asked them why they bother to read the stuff at the beginning of the meeting since they already know it by heart? Why they take time to volunteer at the local office, to go on panels to hospitals and institutions? Why they put their phone number on little pieces of paper and hand it to a _newcomer_? How did the very first members of any 12 step programs _first_ were able to overcome their respective disease? They all did it the same way, by "carrying the message" to newcomers. The same way you have been doing every single day that you have posted here.

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I want you all to know that I think you are all wonderful people, that I "love" you in that special way that only those of us who have suffered from this disease can understand. I lost my darling wife of 20yrs to a pill addiction after years and years of horrible surgeries. I know how deeply this hurts, just in the same way that you know how much it hurts. So the next time you want to pound on my head take a minute to step outside, take a deep breath and realize that we are all on the same side. The side of healing for ourselves and our loved ones.

If I missed anybody else's comments you have my apologies. I have no intention of ignoring anybody, it's just a _long_ thread and my eyesight isn't what it used to be. I'm also a little worked up cuz today is a personal best; five full months without a major hospitalization from a heart attack. Yay for me

Mike

Anna

About Newcomers,

This is part of this thread that I need to address because I think it is important for the members of this forum.

I spend a lot of time hanging around the Newcomers Forum. Many of the Newcomers are addicts and some are family and friends looking for support. When a Friend or Family member arrives at Newcomers we are certain to welcome him/her, say what we can in the moment and advise him to go to one of the Anon forums. Newcomers mainly holds the attention of addicts and, while we are more than happy to welcome new Anon members, we are not the best people to be giving them advice. The traffic in Newcomers is definitely more addicts than Anons. So, we gently suggest they move to this area.

Therefore, if an Anon likes what they see in Newcomers and takes our advice to move to this forum, they will be Newcomers here.

Aquiana

Yay for you is right! Congratulations!

Pick-a-name

Usually, I am too but I got sick enough from my disease that I started to loose that confidence, especially since I had never been around/lived with an alcoholic. AH's symptoms of alcoholism has been a slow.slow process...over 35yrs. I didn't see it happening, but I knew "something" was happening and we also had a chronically ill child. I had to learn enough to consider that this was what was going on, and I did that by learning about the disease.

I can understand what you are saying, and in is so true that we should not concern ourselves about how many symptoms,"proving it" to us,them anyone....but for newcomers to recovery, I think this is how we start to realize what we might be dealing with so we can then say; OK, this is what is going on, now, what am I going to do; what are my choices.

Pick-a-name

I find this list helpful, to tell you the truth. I am relatively new to recovery, and AH is still actively drinking and progressing in this disease. When I read the "list" what became clear to me is that some of his symptoms have progressed......things that I sometimes do not recognize as "alcoholic" although upon reflection, they certainly are. I find the "list" helpful in the "big picture" in the thinking......not so much the drinking. I am glad they were posted here.........the information is factual even if it is "too elementary" for those further along their road.

As my denial cracks, I am able to start to "see" more alcoholism and it's effects in our lives, and now that I am less threatened and read this list..I can identify more.

As with everything else here....we are all free to take what we like and leave the rest! That is a grand thing! Thanks to everyone for sharing.

sunshinebluesky

well now im really pissed,cuz i wrote such a good response and lost it!!
i agree with mike in that when many people come to this forum they might not really think about where they are (as far as what groups,threads,etc) when reading or posting. you see something that catches your attention,and you go to it. so what if we see it???? we can choose to read it and contribute or just skip it.so what if a newcomer happens to see this post on this groups forum????? i searched for just that list other places before i came to this forum.and it did validate for me that my ex had the disease and it wasnt me just being a different type of person with a different type of lifestyle.
i have said many times on these threads how so often i see in my daily life that to many people excessive drinking is the norm.sometimes,its not-sometimes its alcoholism.
my sister is a totally different type of person with this disease that shows itself in a totally different type of way, than it did in my ex. so yes,i needed a list.im sure medical docs and rehabs etc all use some type of criteria as this to diagnose.
yeah,so i have three of the signs-----"Blaming you or others for his or her own shortcomings" ok, well SOMETIMES!!
"Having memory lapses" yeah,im menopausal AND senile!! " Mood changes or swings, such as temper flare-ups and irritability" TWO WORDS--PMS,MENOPAUSE!!! but on a serious note there,how about bipolar?
im sure many people have some of them-----you got to look at it all in context.
just as i dont believe that every person here involved with an addict or alcoholic is a co-dependent. it depends on so many things.
and i disagree that its not anyone else's place to decide if someone is an alcoholic.how can you possibly live with OR leave if you dont know what you are dealing with? diseases have symptoms,diseases have names.addiction/alcoholism is one of them.
when i came here...as a friend and family of an alcoholic,well of course thats the FIRST place i went. not to the newcomers board.had today been my very first time looking for all the info,i would have been helped greatly by FD'S post.
lastly,i would like to say that the main reason i chose to help myself here in this forum was because i was under the impression it was not strictly AA or alanon 12 step programming.if i had wanted that, i would have just gone to meetings. i wanted something different,to do my own way and this was part of it for me.
i really just dont understand what the problem was here in the first place.

denny57

I'll try to explain where I'm coming from. My relationship with the A in my life and the craziness of our existence was directly affected by his drinking. So yes, as our doctor said to both me and my AH, if your wife has a problem with your drinking, then there is a problem.

I was absolutely clueless about the disease aspect of alcoholism. As I learned more, it enriched my recovery, in a large part because I started to UNDERSTAND so much of what had and was happening in my life.

But the bottom line is that it would not matter if it was a disease, if he had the disease, etc. His drinking (and my reaction to it) was causing a problem. Period.

Mike: thanks for your comments and responses to my thoughts on Al-Anon. As I mentioned, I don't discuss the program too much in detail because it's a personal matter. But I will share this to show it can be different for everyone.

I am agnostic. I'm pretty darn sure there will be a couple of those steps I'll spend the rest of my existence trying to fit into my life - I love a challenge, though, and I've learned to keep an open mind. It took me a while to understand they were the 12 steps, not the 12 commandments.

I don't believe I have a "disease." I don't believe I have a sickness - though our doctor did tell me I was more physically ill than my AH before I started in Al-Anon. I believe I am unique (though I finally conceded my situation is not LOL).

I see a therapist and there are many in Al-Anon who disagree with that. I don't call my sponsor every day and I'm not doing my 5th step with her - though she is helping me through the 4th. She is fine with that.

Some would read this and say you cannot bend the program to you. Maybe I will find out that is true. Right now I believe the program is near to perfect because it does allow flexibility. I believe it is some people who come in and want structure and rules, etc. who have the biggest problem with that. (oops took an inventory)

What I can say for certain is that working this particular 12-step program has been invaluable for ME. If I have taken one thing very much to heart from the program it is those important words at the end of the meeting: take what you like and leave the rest. Even if it is advice!

Finally, I think this thread has been extremely helpful. How on earth would I grow if everyone had the same opinion and was saying the same thing?

DesertEyes

My background in the 12 step programs is very old-fashioned. Over the years I have found that my perspective on my recovery works just fine for me. I was offered certain "attitudes" about recovery by my sponsors and I have found that they work for me. The people who taught me these things, if anybody cares, were a guy called Chuck C. who sponsored Bill W. among others. Clancy I. a sponsee of Chuck, then Johny H, Gil G. and now Chuck B. What they taught me is real simple.

In the book it says "these steps are suggested as a program of recovery". To me that's very clear.

"Take what you like and leave the rest". That's pretty clear too.

In the various official publications from the many programs they make reference to Bill W.'s "letters" to the medical community. In all cases the official policy of all the 12 step programs is that we not only respect but encourage people to recover by whatever means possible. (The "inside term" used by Bill W in the Big Book is that we "take our hats off" to those folks)

Not only are you _able_ to "bend" the program to you. It is the official policy of all the 12 steps programs that each and every one of us _must_ bend the program to our specific needs. Anybody who thinks otherwise needs to do a little more reading.

As a member of of Bill W. and Lois W.'s programs I will always encourage anybody who recovers by any means to share their own ESH so that _I_ can learn how to be a better person. Which program, or none, or which God, or none, is irrelevant to me, as it was to Bill and Lois. As we say over in the "heavy" groups of ISA ( that's the people who endured torture and attend Incest Survivors Anonymous) we are all here for the same purpose; to survive and overcome.

((((((((((((( hugs )))))))))))))) to all of you.

Can we now move on please?

Mike

StandingStrong

My husband was a binge drinker. He could go days, weeks, and months without a drink. During different times throughout the years, there were times he admitted he had a drinking problem, admitted that he was an alcoholic, and at other times claimed that he didn't at all, he just liked to have a few beers now and then. And yet, I realized even then, that he fluctuated on what he said, his behaviour was sporadic in that he didn't always drink everyday. He claimed that I was making his drinking into a big deal, etc and that it wasn't.

I could go on. The point is that in my case - I questioned it. Was he an alcoholic? Was I making it into something it wasn't? Was I the one that was wrong in feeling as I did and that there was a problem? The questions were endless as I struggled.

It was lists like the one posted that brought me to reading about alcoholism and addiction. It was lists like that to finally had me feeling like someone out there understood. It was lists like the one posted that eventually got me to SR. And it was posts like these that made me feel like I was gaining some kind of answers, that someone out there really did understand, and it kept me here researching and reading, etc. in educating myself.

I did come to a point where I didn't need to know anymore if my husband was/is an alcoholic. I came to understand that regardless of whatever label you used or didn't use - my life was being affected by someone else's drinking. His drinking was causing me problems. Etc.
Which then later led me to come to that point in recovery where I began to realize that it wasn't just his drinking anymore that was causing me problems - thus, then started the beginning of my journey to my own recovery.

While we don't always experience the same things - nor have the same experiences that bring us here together - there are those of us that become confused by the A's words, his actions, etc and I know for me, I believe that AH's binges were harder to understand because he wasn't what my brain conceived as a steriotypical alcholic. I wasn't educated - I didn't know better. I was searching for the answers to know if I really was to blame, if I was the one that was going crazy, etc. A"s manipulate, they blame, etc. and for those of us that are "brain washed" in that extent - it's lists like this that do make us search for more answers because we finally have a small light that leads us to the bigger light - our recovery.

Regardless...........I believe this thread has gotten out of hand as far as the original intent of the post was meant too (from my perception). I'll take it. Remember, we all have the choice to take what we want and leave the rest.

DesertEyes

Thanx everybody for all your wonderful comments. The subject has been, like the proverbial dead horse, beat beyond any hope of life.

Mike