Common Tell-Tail Signs of Alcoholism
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
Really. Yup. It's called "Step 12". The way the 12 step program works, specifically, is by taking the actions listed in the "12 steps". Those actions start with the first three "Awareness" steps, then 4 thru 9 are the "Healing" steps.
Once you've done the "healing", what do you do next? You do the "maintenance" steps which culminate in "carrying the message". Well to _whom_ do you carry the message to? To those who still suffer.
The specific actions that we take in order to focus on our own recovery are steps 10 thru 12. 10 we do with our sponsors (that's whey there are sponsors) 11 we do with our HP, and 12 we do right here on this forum, or in meetings (that's why old-timers go to meetings )
Once you've done the "healing", what do you do next? You do the "maintenance" steps which culminate in "carrying the message". Well to _whom_ do you carry the message to? To those who still suffer.
The specific actions that we take in order to focus on our own recovery are steps 10 thru 12. 10 we do with our sponsors (that's whey there are sponsors) 11 we do with our HP, and 12 we do right here on this forum, or in meetings (that's why old-timers go to meetings )
Mike, I appreciate what you're saying. But I have to say, you've got a lot of "rules" for the 12 steps. For example, if I waited to "heal" before I started "maintenance" I'd be doing it as dirt. Also, the 10th step does not mention "with your sponsor." Finally, I've talked to plenty of "old-timers" who go to meetings for their own recovery. That their presence may help newcomers may be secondary.
Most people I've talked to who don't want to be involved with ANY 12 step program usually give me 2 reasons: the god question; and having to "play by the rules." I have long given up trying to convince them it doesn't have to be that way. Guess what? The 12 steps taught me that, too.
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 1,331
I have to agree with Denny, most old timers go for their continued recovery, if they can help a newcomer they do, but never do they go to give back, they go because they have to. Doing service work is how they give back, giving someone a ride to a meeting, speaking etc.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Ok - I am TOTALLY confused!
I have absolutely NO IDEA how suggesting something (a post of signs) belongs here because this is a place where people there are often newcomers and it's useful to newcomers leads to mega posters being invited to leave?
Of course this place is for newcomers - if you post on newcomers people say 'Hi' then point down here!! I remember copying my first post after redirection!
Judy if what you've offered here isn't to help newcomers (in the way YOU feel is best) then who was it for?
Excuse my confusion but it's like a nerve has been hit over something that not really that contraversial!
I have absolutely NO IDEA how suggesting something (a post of signs) belongs here because this is a place where people there are often newcomers and it's useful to newcomers leads to mega posters being invited to leave?
Of course this place is for newcomers - if you post on newcomers people say 'Hi' then point down here!! I remember copying my first post after redirection!
Judy if what you've offered here isn't to help newcomers (in the way YOU feel is best) then who was it for?
Excuse my confusion but it's like a nerve has been hit over something that not really that contraversial!
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
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I, for one, had no idea why my life was awful or what I should do about it. I thought maybe I was crazy. These are the type of lists that help us realize we are not crazy, and there are others out there who know what we are going through. I don't think this is inappropriate for this forum at all.
L
L
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 1,331
You know what, I'd say my Husband was 4 out of the 21 things listed above. Believe me, he is an alcoholic, although recovering.
Me, I'm about 14 out of the 21 things listed above, and I am not an alcoholic in any way shape or form.
So, you see, the list can be manipulated to suit how you're feeling and thinking at any given time, at least I can manipulate it.
Lists are like anything else ...... if it validates how you're feeling, then it's a good list. If it holds no value to you, it's a worthless list. OK, I've argued this point beyond what is reasonable ..... it's only my opinion, I'm sure we'll see many more lists like this in the future and I'll just smile and say "*****, another list!" Lists to me are sort of like useless meetings at work ..... we don't need the meetings to accomplish things, but we have them anyway because the illusion is we're accomplishing something LOL.
BTW, I talked to my doctor about my husband in length. I trusted him much more than I would a dang internet site list. LOL
Me, I'm about 14 out of the 21 things listed above, and I am not an alcoholic in any way shape or form.
So, you see, the list can be manipulated to suit how you're feeling and thinking at any given time, at least I can manipulate it.
Lists are like anything else ...... if it validates how you're feeling, then it's a good list. If it holds no value to you, it's a worthless list. OK, I've argued this point beyond what is reasonable ..... it's only my opinion, I'm sure we'll see many more lists like this in the future and I'll just smile and say "*****, another list!" Lists to me are sort of like useless meetings at work ..... we don't need the meetings to accomplish things, but we have them anyway because the illusion is we're accomplishing something LOL.
BTW, I talked to my doctor about my husband in length. I trusted him much more than I would a dang internet site list. LOL
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
I sure wish I had had that list many years ago when I became involved with an alcoholic and had never been exposed to that before, had no idea what was going on...I was clueless, confused and going crazy.
And....later on down the road, as a newcomer this is the forum I came to.
And...later on down the road, this is a forum I continue to turn to.
I am grateful in a profound way for the internet community.
Early on I wouldn't have known to go to a meeting, nor did I have the means or ability.
Crazy things do happen. Later when I learned about al-anon, my exA chained the axle of my car with a log chain to a huge post so that I couldn't go. That's one incident, I don't need to revisit the others.
And....later on down the road, as a newcomer this is the forum I came to.
And...later on down the road, this is a forum I continue to turn to.
I am grateful in a profound way for the internet community.
Early on I wouldn't have known to go to a meeting, nor did I have the means or ability.
Crazy things do happen. Later when I learned about al-anon, my exA chained the axle of my car with a log chain to a huge post so that I couldn't go. That's one incident, I don't need to revisit the others.
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 1,331
had no idea what was going on...I was clueless, confused and going crazy.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Judy:
I hope that no one ever ever tells you that one of your posts is useless, like you just did to me. It's rude, childish, and absolutely unnecessary. If you don't find a post or a topic useful, then move on to another post.
I think you find great pleasure in derailing other people's posts and stirring the pot. I can count on you to do that everytime you respond to a post. So, my question to you is:
Are you here to further your recovery or are you here to bully people? I won't allow you to bully me or to derail my threads. If you don't like my post or find it useful, say so politely and then move on.
I hope that no one ever ever tells you that one of your posts is useless, like you just did to me. It's rude, childish, and absolutely unnecessary. If you don't find a post or a topic useful, then move on to another post.
I think you find great pleasure in derailing other people's posts and stirring the pot. I can count on you to do that everytime you respond to a post. So, my question to you is:
Are you here to further your recovery or are you here to bully people? I won't allow you to bully me or to derail my threads. If you don't like my post or find it useful, say so politely and then move on.
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 1,331
FD, in true co-de fashion, you are making this about YOU which it is not! I said in my initial response to you, that it was nothing PERSONAL against you, I did not see the significance of a list that spells out if someone is an alcoholic or not. As mentioned way back in the beginning, I feel these kinds of lists (whether posted from you or anyone) get in the way of anyones recovery.
As I said, I meet 14 of the criteria of this so called list and I am not an alcoholic and I barely drink at all. My husband however, could only meet 4 of the criteria of he drank for 35 years practically 24 hours a day. So FD, I am not questioning you or saying your post was useless, I'm saying that the list can be manipulated to suit anyone at any given time. It should be taken with a grain of salt and definitely the source should be considered from where it came from.
So, in true co-dependent fashion you turned my comment around to make yourself look like the victim? Like someone is picking on you? Sorry, FD, I've been an enabler for many years and lived with an alcoholic and I see manipulation when it's coming at me. MY RESPONSE TO YOUR POST WAS NOT ABOUT YOU IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!
I wasn't bullying you or anyone else ...... lighten up and don't take it so personally.
As I said, I meet 14 of the criteria of this so called list and I am not an alcoholic and I barely drink at all. My husband however, could only meet 4 of the criteria of he drank for 35 years practically 24 hours a day. So FD, I am not questioning you or saying your post was useless, I'm saying that the list can be manipulated to suit anyone at any given time. It should be taken with a grain of salt and definitely the source should be considered from where it came from.
So, in true co-dependent fashion you turned my comment around to make yourself look like the victim? Like someone is picking on you? Sorry, FD, I've been an enabler for many years and lived with an alcoholic and I see manipulation when it's coming at me. MY RESPONSE TO YOUR POST WAS NOT ABOUT YOU IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!
I wasn't bullying you or anyone else ...... lighten up and don't take it so personally.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
BLAH!!!
Ok - this post is probably a bit nuts (I hear codie being shouted from over the pond....).
I like both of you, sometimes I disagree with both of you but I like you - so flippin' ada stop arguing!
I'm gobsmacked by this thread - it wasn't exactly the contraversy of the month but it's just spiralling!
Maybe think of it as an excercise in how to make peace when arguments are poopy????? *runs for cover*
Ok - this post is probably a bit nuts (I hear codie being shouted from over the pond....).
I like both of you, sometimes I disagree with both of you but I like you - so flippin' ada stop arguing!
I'm gobsmacked by this thread - it wasn't exactly the contraversy of the month but it's just spiralling!
Maybe think of it as an excercise in how to make peace when arguments are poopy????? *runs for cover*
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Boy, am I glad I've been busy today. Too many hooks in here for me.......I'll try and give my 2cs and keep it in the "I".
Back in the days BC (Before Clarity), I had no clue about addiction. No insight, no experience (so I thought) and no idea the impact it would have on my life. When I lived with someone who declared their undying love and treated me like the princess that I had never felt, it's kind of hard to see the patterns. I thought I (and our relationship) was enough to deal with R's "demons" and we would live together happily ever after. The Yin/Yang was balanced for a while, but only in terms of very high "highs" and very low "lows".
When I realised that I was dealing with something far beyond my experience, I started searching on the net for information. Like any good codie, my searches were about getting help for HIM, rather than for me. Lists like the one FD has posted were invaluable to help me focus on the issues in hand without being diverted by R's denial and minimisation. Yes, I diagnosed him as an alcoholic based on lists like these. I try not to refer to him as such any longer for my own reasons, however it sure helped to put any kind of name on what I was dealing with. I still struggle when people try and dissuade me from using various descriptions of R and my experience because I need it. I need to be able to describe what happened without taking 2 hours to do it. Anyway, that's for another day.
As for Empowered Recovery (please bear in mind that it is a while since I've read the ebook) - I like the articles on that site. I like the e-book. When I read it, I did exactly what is urged in al-anon. I take what I like and I leave the rest.
What do I like? I like the no-nonsense approach. I like that is practical. I like that it gets down to brass tacks and tells it like it is for the majority of people (in my experience only) who are involved with a problem drinker who is stuck in the mire of their addiction. I find it refreshing that there is an alternative to al-anon, just as there are alternatives to AA. I like that there is no HP dimension. I like that it has in-your-face messages designed to snap one into some kind of action.
Drawbacks? There is no room for ambiguity. I feel that it is aimed at people with a particular experience which portrays that this is everyone's experience. I don't like that there seems to be a lack of appreciation of just how hard it is for some people to just up and leave. However, my biggest reservation with this (and al-anon too) is that there is a lumping together of behaviour under one term - that of alcoholism. And that of co-dependency, for that matter.As I have said many times before, there are behaviours that often co-exist with problem drinkers, but that does not mean that it is the drink that is the cause. Also, I dislike that there is a lot of emphasis on the drinker and not so much on us as partners (or exs) of problem drinkers.
I am much more of a big picture gal these days and I'm into figuring out my drivers and my life. I am not defined by my prior relationship to R, however through that situation I have picked up a variety of tools from a number of sources that help me to be who I was always meant to be. ER is one, al-anon another, but there are many more besides.
As to the direction that this thread has taken, I confess to being profoundly disturbed, particulary when a mod brings the 12 Steps in as a kind of model to how the forum is run. This is NOT an Al-anon board. This is a board for Friends and Families of Alcoholics (wince) and is not subject to any of the Traditions followed by al-anon, only the forum rules. When I joined, it WAS portrayed as an al-anon board and since the re-naming some good things have been lost but many good things have been gained. Sharing one's E, S and H is one thing, enforcing that model on others is another. To me, this is not a board for Newcomers. This is a board for everyone who has been affected by someone else's drinking. End of story. And Judy, I really can't believe that you are bringing al-anon ethos into this when most of your posts are geared towards advice-giving, which as you well know is an al-anon no-no. You know I love your posts and more times than not I am applauding behind my monitor, but really. That's taking "take what you like and leave the rest" to another level.
I think that was about 50cs worth, rather than 2, but thanks for letting me share.
Back in the days BC (Before Clarity), I had no clue about addiction. No insight, no experience (so I thought) and no idea the impact it would have on my life. When I lived with someone who declared their undying love and treated me like the princess that I had never felt, it's kind of hard to see the patterns. I thought I (and our relationship) was enough to deal with R's "demons" and we would live together happily ever after. The Yin/Yang was balanced for a while, but only in terms of very high "highs" and very low "lows".
When I realised that I was dealing with something far beyond my experience, I started searching on the net for information. Like any good codie, my searches were about getting help for HIM, rather than for me. Lists like the one FD has posted were invaluable to help me focus on the issues in hand without being diverted by R's denial and minimisation. Yes, I diagnosed him as an alcoholic based on lists like these. I try not to refer to him as such any longer for my own reasons, however it sure helped to put any kind of name on what I was dealing with. I still struggle when people try and dissuade me from using various descriptions of R and my experience because I need it. I need to be able to describe what happened without taking 2 hours to do it. Anyway, that's for another day.
As for Empowered Recovery (please bear in mind that it is a while since I've read the ebook) - I like the articles on that site. I like the e-book. When I read it, I did exactly what is urged in al-anon. I take what I like and I leave the rest.
What do I like? I like the no-nonsense approach. I like that is practical. I like that it gets down to brass tacks and tells it like it is for the majority of people (in my experience only) who are involved with a problem drinker who is stuck in the mire of their addiction. I find it refreshing that there is an alternative to al-anon, just as there are alternatives to AA. I like that there is no HP dimension. I like that it has in-your-face messages designed to snap one into some kind of action.
Drawbacks? There is no room for ambiguity. I feel that it is aimed at people with a particular experience which portrays that this is everyone's experience. I don't like that there seems to be a lack of appreciation of just how hard it is for some people to just up and leave. However, my biggest reservation with this (and al-anon too) is that there is a lumping together of behaviour under one term - that of alcoholism. And that of co-dependency, for that matter.As I have said many times before, there are behaviours that often co-exist with problem drinkers, but that does not mean that it is the drink that is the cause. Also, I dislike that there is a lot of emphasis on the drinker and not so much on us as partners (or exs) of problem drinkers.
I am much more of a big picture gal these days and I'm into figuring out my drivers and my life. I am not defined by my prior relationship to R, however through that situation I have picked up a variety of tools from a number of sources that help me to be who I was always meant to be. ER is one, al-anon another, but there are many more besides.
As to the direction that this thread has taken, I confess to being profoundly disturbed, particulary when a mod brings the 12 Steps in as a kind of model to how the forum is run. This is NOT an Al-anon board. This is a board for Friends and Families of Alcoholics (wince) and is not subject to any of the Traditions followed by al-anon, only the forum rules. When I joined, it WAS portrayed as an al-anon board and since the re-naming some good things have been lost but many good things have been gained. Sharing one's E, S and H is one thing, enforcing that model on others is another. To me, this is not a board for Newcomers. This is a board for everyone who has been affected by someone else's drinking. End of story. And Judy, I really can't believe that you are bringing al-anon ethos into this when most of your posts are geared towards advice-giving, which as you well know is an al-anon no-no. You know I love your posts and more times than not I am applauding behind my monitor, but really. That's taking "take what you like and leave the rest" to another level.
I think that was about 50cs worth, rather than 2, but thanks for letting me share.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Oh, and I am still puzzled about how one can (or would wish to) learn about the "disease" if one is discouraged from figuring out if the loved one has it in the first place as Denny and Judy say. Help me out please, my brain hurts.
It can't be as simple as "If you have a problem with his drinking then there is a problem" because that's a pretty weak way of diagnosing a "disease".
I am not saying this list is helpful or not helpful in doing that - I am just at a loss to understand where the starting off point comes.
It can't be as simple as "If you have a problem with his drinking then there is a problem" because that's a pretty weak way of diagnosing a "disease".
I am not saying this list is helpful or not helpful in doing that - I am just at a loss to understand where the starting off point comes.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Actually, Judy in true Judy form, this thread has become all about you. You seem to enjoy being the center of attention, and you stop at nothing to get it. It doesn't matter to you whether you get positive attention or negative attention. Any type seems to do. And you seem to particularly enjoy stirring the pot. You also seem to enjoy telling everyone how well you're doing in your recovery and often seem to imply that anyone other than you is failing miserably.
I had no problem with you saying you disagreed with my post. What I have a problem with is you calling my post useless and chiming in again and again to stress the same point. I get it--You think my post is useless. So say it once and move on.
You still haven't answered my question, so I'll pose it again:
Are you here to further your recovery or are you here to bully people?
I had no problem with you saying you disagreed with my post. What I have a problem with is you calling my post useless and chiming in again and again to stress the same point. I get it--You think my post is useless. So say it once and move on.
You still haven't answered my question, so I'll pose it again:
Are you here to further your recovery or are you here to bully people?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 1,331
I really don't know how to explain it ..... but I think things like "the list" get in the way of my own personal recovery. Maybe Denny can help me out with this.
If everyone else wants to use lists, go ahead. For my sponsees, I encourage them to look within themselves for healing, not to have their feelings validated by a "list"!
If everyone else wants to use lists, go ahead. For my sponsees, I encourage them to look within themselves for healing, not to have their feelings validated by a "list"!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 1,331
FD, I disagreed with your post .... people keep replying to me, so I reply back and if that has made this post about me, then so be it. I wrote my opinion, you disagree as do others, You wrote yours, I disagree with it.
It was not a personal attack on you ....... I just don't see the purpose of lists. I can't make it any simpler than that!
It was not a personal attack on you ....... I just don't see the purpose of lists. I can't make it any simpler than that!
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Far point, Judy, and I hope you know that I am with you 100% on the looking at ourselves thing. I just don't get where learning all you can about the "disease" fits into that. (and for the record, I have done far more of that learning than is good for me, so I am not coming at this from a totally ignorant standpoint.)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Five - you know one of the things I unearthed D said REALLY helped. It was well referenced article on frontal lobe damage - it said what had never been put so clearly for either of us, it got down to the messy bits about WHY chances start to go down as the years of drinking go up, and why some people do get caught in a revolving door. It was a very cold piece of research, humans, rats, cognitive tests and data - but it had a profound effect when it came to cost versus benefit.
For me the biggest thing that helped in reading was to realise the 'grey' was real, not denial or illusion, more a repeated constant. Did you know in periodicals they frequently refer to 'chronic alcoholics' - why do that if all are chronic?
People do recover, in programmes and out of them, after mistakes and relapses they still recover and some don't. I learned that from those texts too.
For me the biggest thing that helped in reading was to realise the 'grey' was real, not denial or illusion, more a repeated constant. Did you know in periodicals they frequently refer to 'chronic alcoholics' - why do that if all are chronic?
People do recover, in programmes and out of them, after mistakes and relapses they still recover and some don't. I learned that from those texts too.
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