Alcoholic Lack of conscience or something else
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by Beachn 
Thanks everyone,
Why doesn’t matter, only the actions do. This post is just another example of me trying to out think and out smart the addiction instead of focusing on what is really important, my children and myself.
My obsession with this mountain of sh$& is the perfect distraction from looking inward and dealing with my own issues and accepting that the life I wanted is not to be, time to build a new one.
Beachn
Why doesn’t matter, only the actions do. This post is just another example of me trying to out think and out smart the addiction instead of focusing on what is really important, my children and myself.
My obsession with this mountain of sh$& is the perfect distraction from looking inward and dealing with my own issues and accepting that the life I wanted is not to be, time to build a new one.
Beachn
Yeah... if she thinks she's a chicken, don't keep her around just because you need the eggs. Hanging around and watching someone cluck their way to insanity is just encouraging the ****-show that is their delusions.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 170
Ophelia that was just awesome, thank you.
Carrying on...
Early this year I was contacted by a half sister I had never met. We texted for a few months and finally met up at a midpoint for a weekend of glamping, hiking, eating and getting to know one another and our families.
Sounds great? Long lost siblings reunited blah blah blah..
Surprise! She’s an alcoholic.
For our first meeting she showed up to our cabin close to 11PM...hammered. The smell of alcohol enveloped her like homeless halitosis. There were warning signs before we met up, obnoxious late night texts on Friday or Saturday that I uh oh’d but I waited to see how she was in person.
She knew of my wife’s issues, that I’m over a year sober and that we would not be drinking at all. She knew I do not want my children around drunks ever again and still she did it. More bs to the story, but it’s typical alcoholic drama so I’ll spare the details.
Instead of thinking about anyone but herself she ruined any possibility of a relationship between us. I tried to see past the alcoholism, but it proved to be impossible. The next day it was obvious she was jonesing for a drink after our first hike at 10 AM, she and her husband disappeared until dinner and after dinner they took off and that was the last we saw of them.
To the point. The lack of empathy and conscience was obnoxious. The superiority complex and no one matters attitude screamed entitled alcoholic. No thanks.
No humility or respect for anyone, not even the slightest concern for 2 little kids. She admittedly has no desire to get sober and I have no desire to invite a drunk into my life.
It’s this type of crap I have tried to figure out. I no longer care what the why is because it doesn’t matter and it’s not for me to figure out. All that matters is it’s unacceptable and unwelcome behavior that I refuse to tolerate..from anyone... ever again.
Carrying on...
Early this year I was contacted by a half sister I had never met. We texted for a few months and finally met up at a midpoint for a weekend of glamping, hiking, eating and getting to know one another and our families.
Sounds great? Long lost siblings reunited blah blah blah..
Surprise! She’s an alcoholic.
For our first meeting she showed up to our cabin close to 11PM...hammered. The smell of alcohol enveloped her like homeless halitosis. There were warning signs before we met up, obnoxious late night texts on Friday or Saturday that I uh oh’d but I waited to see how she was in person.
She knew of my wife’s issues, that I’m over a year sober and that we would not be drinking at all. She knew I do not want my children around drunks ever again and still she did it. More bs to the story, but it’s typical alcoholic drama so I’ll spare the details.
Instead of thinking about anyone but herself she ruined any possibility of a relationship between us. I tried to see past the alcoholism, but it proved to be impossible. The next day it was obvious she was jonesing for a drink after our first hike at 10 AM, she and her husband disappeared until dinner and after dinner they took off and that was the last we saw of them.
To the point. The lack of empathy and conscience was obnoxious. The superiority complex and no one matters attitude screamed entitled alcoholic. No thanks.
No humility or respect for anyone, not even the slightest concern for 2 little kids. She admittedly has no desire to get sober and I have no desire to invite a drunk into my life.
It’s this type of crap I have tried to figure out. I no longer care what the why is because it doesn’t matter and it’s not for me to figure out. All that matters is it’s unacceptable and unwelcome behavior that I refuse to tolerate..from anyone... ever again.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by Beachn
But I don’t want a big exam. Lol
Sure you can say, "well actually I'm the victim here because my spouse/partner/friend did this or that to me because they are an addict", and you would be right -- they DID do this and that. But more importantly... you hung around to watch it, to clean up after it, to pay of the fines, to be the only functional parent in a situation where there should have been two and your offspring are watching really obnoxious behavior being modeled by both parents (one being an addict and the other tolerating it) -- YOU did that. You stayed to watch the movie you said you didn't like to watch.
For a lot of people here at SR, the issue can be they are ACOAs -- so by "saving" their addict spouse/partner/friend, they are fulfilling their childhood desire to save their addict parent/guardian. It's the id making all these decisions, not the logical brain. For other people at SR, they may not be ACOAs but they have weak boundaries because of other things that may have happened in childhood: abuse, fear of abandonment because of reasons x y z... etc. So they unconsciously seek out the type of situation where they are being mistreated the way they were mistreated as children. Or maybe they are just really too "nice" (ie: naive or, really, a combination of deluded and lazy) and they mainline fantasies about true love or winning the lottery, and an abusive person who is also an addict sees this and they think they have hit the jackpot, because people don't give up their delusions easily. Some people are inverse narcissists and want someone to control (maybe they have an inferiority complex and they want to be with someone they feel "better than") -- so an addict is an ideal project because you can never run out of ways to try to "fix" another person whose flaw is a disease they can never be rid of. It doesn't have to be a pathology either... this can be a mistake you make only once.
The exam question is: what type of codie are you? That's the theory section. The practical section is: put into practice a liveable solution for the type of codie you are.
There is no such thing as a life without choices. You only get one life. Even if you believe in reincarnation, ALL empirical proof points to the idea that we live THIS life ONCE. That is all you can work on: empirical proof. You can choose to live your best life. Or not. This exam is really a gift -- you are getting a second chance. You can turn it away and go back to watching someone kill themselves (and it's okay if that is what you really want)... or you can start over. The universe is giving you a choice now.
Your wife may not have a choice to be an addict -- no one does. But at some point she had choices: plenty of them, so many days when she could have turned back. She could have chose to seek recovery. She could have chose to stay in recovery. She chose to nullify herself through drink. If she has no choices anymore, it's because she threw them away -- and even THAT was a choice she made. It is heartbreaking... BUT it was her choice.
From here on out, if you seek your own recovery, you will probably be able to see a toxic person from a mile away. And that is an excellent skill to have, something you can pass on to your kids so that they can protect themselves in future.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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There's also the possibility of organic damage to the brain that can happen after years of heavy drinking, either through direct effect on the brain or through failures in liver function which let substances like ammonia get into the brain. Some alcoholics are as brain-damaged as they would be if they fell off the roof and landed on their heads. They literally cannot think or reason like normal people, even then they're not drinking. Deep psychological motives are almost besides the point - they do stupid, cruel and irrational things because they broke their brains.
Many years ago, when I first started to clue in that my then-husband had something really wrong with him, I was busy googling "brain tumor personality change" because that was the only thing I could think of that could explain such a marked deterioration. All the empty wine bottles should have been a clue. Later when I read about Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (and ex had "progressed" to litres of vodka), it all started to come together - impaired memory and memory loss, check; confabulation and delusions, check; poor impulse control, check; impaired cognition, check; erratic movements of the eyes, check; irregular or swaying gait, check. These were present even when he was cold sober.
Psychological and emotional issues certainly got him into drinking and enabled him to justify continuing to drink even when his drinking was destroying his life. His biological hardwiring predisposed him to addiction. But I think a big part of the crazy, irrational and really dangerous aspects of his behavior in the last couple of years was organic brain damage.
Many years ago, when I first started to clue in that my then-husband had something really wrong with him, I was busy googling "brain tumor personality change" because that was the only thing I could think of that could explain such a marked deterioration. All the empty wine bottles should have been a clue. Later when I read about Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (and ex had "progressed" to litres of vodka), it all started to come together - impaired memory and memory loss, check; confabulation and delusions, check; poor impulse control, check; impaired cognition, check; erratic movements of the eyes, check; irregular or swaying gait, check. These were present even when he was cold sober.
Psychological and emotional issues certainly got him into drinking and enabled him to justify continuing to drink even when his drinking was destroying his life. His biological hardwiring predisposed him to addiction. But I think a big part of the crazy, irrational and really dangerous aspects of his behavior in the last couple of years was organic brain damage.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by Sasha1972
Psychological and emotional issues certainly got him into drinking and enabled him to justify continuing to drink even when his drinking was destroying his life.
I am not saying that addicts who have brain damage can choose to not have brain damage, I am saying that they didn't choose to stop when they had a chance to stop... and now they live the consequences.
As friends and family of the addict, we can't do anything about their past or present choices. We can only live with the consequences of our own past and present choices.
I have heard my ex say, "I have psychological issues" hundreds of times. He had a doctor, he had three psychologists, he had a psychiatrist, he had a neurologist, he had a religious support group. He still did not want to stop because "I don't have a drug problem, I have psychological issues". I'm pretty sure everyone (I know I did) told him that if he didn't stop, he would irrevocably damage his brain. Yet he kept going until he had seizures... then became abusive... then became violent. Yes, his brain was damaged... BUT there was a point where he could have been responsible for his life.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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^^^I don't disagree with any of that. No one held a gun to my ex's head to make him drink - he chose to do so, and than came up with endless ways to minimize or justify this really bad choice. He also had access to literally the best treatment that money could buy, thanks to our very generous benefits and being located in a city with lots of services, as well as an extremely privileged and comfortable life, compared to 99% of the people in the world.
I bring up the brain damage thing because learning more about the physical effects of alcohol on the body and brain helped to slow down the hamster wheel of "why did he do that?? why does he act like that?? what happened to the person I used to be married to??" (and in his case, severe mental illness went along with the addiction, hard to say which one was primary). Brain damage explains part of the "how" of alcoholic craziness, but not the "why". I don't mean to exonerate him. I believe he had a screwed-up mind before he screwed his brain up.
I bring up the brain damage thing because learning more about the physical effects of alcohol on the body and brain helped to slow down the hamster wheel of "why did he do that?? why does he act like that?? what happened to the person I used to be married to??" (and in his case, severe mental illness went along with the addiction, hard to say which one was primary). Brain damage explains part of the "how" of alcoholic craziness, but not the "why". I don't mean to exonerate him. I believe he had a screwed-up mind before he screwed his brain up.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by Sasha1972
I bring up the brain damage thing because learning more about the physical effects of alcohol on the body and brain helped to slow down the hamster wheel of "why did he do that?? why does he act like that?? what happened to the person I used to be married to??" (and in his case, severe mental illness went along with the addiction, hard to say which one was primary). Brain damage explains part of the "how" of alcoholic craziness, but not the "why". I don't mean to exonerate him. I believe he had a screwed-up mind before he screwed his brain up.
So anyway, Beachn, if you don't want to think about the reasons anymore, you're not a bad person. Likewise if what Sasha said helps you, it's not a bad thing to think about it that way either.
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Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz
This exam is really a gift -- you are getting a second chance. You can turn it away and go back to watching someone kill themselves (and it's okay if that is what you really want)... or you can start over. The universe is giving you a choice now.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 170
Ophelia and Sasha thank you for your insightful and extremely helpful posts. I appreciate all of the other input as well.
I’ve reread your entries a dozen times and it wasn’t until I decided to confront my half sister about her unacceptable behavior that the concept of practice test really hit home.
As I was composing my thoughts to the half sister I became fully aware that I was saying to her the same things I have said and/or thought about my wife’s behavior and feeling the same emotions. In this case I am more than willing to just cut losses because there is no emotional attachment.
I was so angry at half sisters lack of awareness of the effect arriving hammered would have on my children. I found her lack of introspection when confronted on her behavior to be shallow. Finally she purported I’m the one with the problem for calling her behavior unacceptable. Is there some manual they hand out to alcoholics on how to act like a sociopath because I see a pattern here and all over this site?
My wife has acted no different and much worse in regard to our children and toward me. Her reactions to being held accountable are either a curt “I know” with a continuation of the behavior or deflect & blame. And the lies The lies and gaslighting will drive you crazy. I will say since her relapse a month ago she has a sponsor and is working the steps, but she has a long road ahead of her.
One of the things I know about myself is I can spot toxic a million miles away as long as it’s outside my perimeter of intimacy. Those inside that perimeter either via FOO, or because I ignored the red flags because I wanted something, can then wreak havoc slowly but surely. I then have great difficulty extracting myself or having strong enough boundaries that they know that **** isn’t going to fly. I expect people to change their behavior instead of changing my own.
Not sure where to go from here. I’ve spent a ton of time and money in and on therapy, which is “theory” and still lack the practical tools to effect the change in my life I desperately want for myself and my children.
So damn frustrating.
I’ve reread your entries a dozen times and it wasn’t until I decided to confront my half sister about her unacceptable behavior that the concept of practice test really hit home.
As I was composing my thoughts to the half sister I became fully aware that I was saying to her the same things I have said and/or thought about my wife’s behavior and feeling the same emotions. In this case I am more than willing to just cut losses because there is no emotional attachment.
I was so angry at half sisters lack of awareness of the effect arriving hammered would have on my children. I found her lack of introspection when confronted on her behavior to be shallow. Finally she purported I’m the one with the problem for calling her behavior unacceptable. Is there some manual they hand out to alcoholics on how to act like a sociopath because I see a pattern here and all over this site?
My wife has acted no different and much worse in regard to our children and toward me. Her reactions to being held accountable are either a curt “I know” with a continuation of the behavior or deflect & blame. And the lies The lies and gaslighting will drive you crazy. I will say since her relapse a month ago she has a sponsor and is working the steps, but she has a long road ahead of her.
One of the things I know about myself is I can spot toxic a million miles away as long as it’s outside my perimeter of intimacy. Those inside that perimeter either via FOO, or because I ignored the red flags because I wanted something, can then wreak havoc slowly but surely. I then have great difficulty extracting myself or having strong enough boundaries that they know that **** isn’t going to fly. I expect people to change their behavior instead of changing my own.
Not sure where to go from here. I’ve spent a ton of time and money in and on therapy, which is “theory” and still lack the practical tools to effect the change in my life I desperately want for myself and my children.
So damn frustrating.
Last edited by Beachn; 08-21-2019 at 03:59 AM. Reason: Clarification
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Beachn, you have already changed so much since you joined. When you first joined you were trying very hard to control someone else. You were controlling. As you progressed through your recovery, you realized many things, and now you are at a point where you know you can only control you. The not-so-big secret of the SR support groups here is that not everyone has the practice of recovery figured out. People still come back years later after having "slipped" and entered into a relationship with another addict, or having reunited with the first addict and then realizing they need help again.
For me, personally, I still have difficulties saying no. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. I'm an empath that has difficulty saying no (I have weak boundaries) -- that seems rather innocuous but at the core, not saying "no" is irresponsible. For example recently a colleague kept asking about my finances... and then they wanted to gossip about if I liked everyone in the office. I really didn't like their line of questioning. I got this weird feeling that I may have been dealing with a sociopath... but instead of saying, "I don't like this line of questioning, can we change the subject?" I just went, "uhh... maybe, I dunno...". It's easier to just type things anonymously online than it is to actually go forth into real life and thrive. It takes practice. It's a step forwards, two back. You have been making a selfish person your life for a long time now, so it will take a while to move forward from it. But at least you're moving, right?
Practically, can you make arrangements to live separately from Wife so that your kids don't have to be exposed to addiction anymore? Doesn't mean you have to divorce. Do you have relatives to stay with while you figure out separation? Does Wife have relatives to stay with?
For me, personally, I still have difficulties saying no. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. I'm an empath that has difficulty saying no (I have weak boundaries) -- that seems rather innocuous but at the core, not saying "no" is irresponsible. For example recently a colleague kept asking about my finances... and then they wanted to gossip about if I liked everyone in the office. I really didn't like their line of questioning. I got this weird feeling that I may have been dealing with a sociopath... but instead of saying, "I don't like this line of questioning, can we change the subject?" I just went, "uhh... maybe, I dunno...". It's easier to just type things anonymously online than it is to actually go forth into real life and thrive. It takes practice. It's a step forwards, two back. You have been making a selfish person your life for a long time now, so it will take a while to move forward from it. But at least you're moving, right?
Practically, can you make arrangements to live separately from Wife so that your kids don't have to be exposed to addiction anymore? Doesn't mean you have to divorce. Do you have relatives to stay with while you figure out separation? Does Wife have relatives to stay with?
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Join Date: May 2010
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This. I agree.
I also think you should give yourself some credit. You have changed. Your attitude has shifted quite a bit. Go back and read your own posts, I think it would be helpful to recognize that.
Beach, you have the tools, but you have to use them. You say yourself, the behavior from sister is absolutely not tolerable so you immediately got her out of your home and environment. However, when wife does the same thing, you think it's your duty to tolerate it or support her through it.
Here is the deal. Actively going to meetings or whatever does not mean a person is working recovery. Working recovery to keep yourself out of trouble normally will not work either. She has to want it, and want to work for it, for the rest of her life. It's a huge commitment. Now, if she is in for that, and her actions and recovery are shining through, then sure, support her. If not, you absolutely don't owe her anything. The deal is to support her while she is working recovery, not while she is just a being going through the motions. HUGE difference.
Who you do owe is your children. You chose to bring them into this life, so what is best for them is what HAS to come first, every single time. If you follow that with your entire being, you won't be led astray.
Sending you a hug and lots of support!
I also think you should give yourself some credit. You have changed. Your attitude has shifted quite a bit. Go back and read your own posts, I think it would be helpful to recognize that.
Beach, you have the tools, but you have to use them. You say yourself, the behavior from sister is absolutely not tolerable so you immediately got her out of your home and environment. However, when wife does the same thing, you think it's your duty to tolerate it or support her through it.
Here is the deal. Actively going to meetings or whatever does not mean a person is working recovery. Working recovery to keep yourself out of trouble normally will not work either. She has to want it, and want to work for it, for the rest of her life. It's a huge commitment. Now, if she is in for that, and her actions and recovery are shining through, then sure, support her. If not, you absolutely don't owe her anything. The deal is to support her while she is working recovery, not while she is just a being going through the motions. HUGE difference.
Who you do owe is your children. You chose to bring them into this life, so what is best for them is what HAS to come first, every single time. If you follow that with your entire being, you won't be led astray.
Sending you a hug and lots of support!
Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
Beachn, I think you do have the tools you need to effect change in your life, but not if your goal is to change your wife into the person you want her to be right now.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
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Unfortunately separating isn’t a viable option. The financial impact of the last 18 months is severe. There is no close family and the family that would be an option is beyond toxic and riddled with their own addiction. I couldn’t in clear conscience send her there. I know not my problem.
I’ve put myself in a very precarious position by trying to control this thing and her and to make sense of it. There is no making sense of any of this. There is only acceptance and I’m awful at that. In fact I get angry at having to.
Maybe I do have the tools and just am unwilling or afraid to exercise them. As I said I’m bad at accepting things I don’t want. Working on it.
While I’ve finally pulled my head out of my ass, now I need a towel to wipe the crap from my eyes so I can see.
As for her recovery, it’s only been a month since her last relapse. A blink of an eye. Who knows right now, I only know she’s not drinking and appears to be working a program.
I’m not trying to change anyone, I’m trying to accept what is and I don’t like what is because it’s encased my whole damn life to the point that I don’t have the same choices I did 8 months ago. The difference is huge and I’m angry at myself for thinking I knew better than people that have been there done that long before I knew what SR was. I have now, and right now for me sucks worse than it did because it’s not just fear off loss, the losses are very real and the potential to get worse because I chose poorly.
I’ve put myself in a very precarious position by trying to control this thing and her and to make sense of it. There is no making sense of any of this. There is only acceptance and I’m awful at that. In fact I get angry at having to.
Maybe I do have the tools and just am unwilling or afraid to exercise them. As I said I’m bad at accepting things I don’t want. Working on it.
While I’ve finally pulled my head out of my ass, now I need a towel to wipe the crap from my eyes so I can see.
As for her recovery, it’s only been a month since her last relapse. A blink of an eye. Who knows right now, I only know she’s not drinking and appears to be working a program.
I’m not trying to change anyone, I’m trying to accept what is and I don’t like what is because it’s encased my whole damn life to the point that I don’t have the same choices I did 8 months ago. The difference is huge and I’m angry at myself for thinking I knew better than people that have been there done that long before I knew what SR was. I have now, and right now for me sucks worse than it did because it’s not just fear off loss, the losses are very real and the potential to get worse because I chose poorly.
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Beach, I had to laugh at the wiping the crap with the towel. It's so true. Sure you have the tools. Only you can decide when and how to utilize them. And don't feel pressured. Eventually the toxicity of staying will be more than your worry about where she may be going. Until then, detatch. Work on you. Do everything you can for your children. Breathe. Enjoy life a little. Stop trying to control her, she is going to do what she is going to do, regardless of what you do.
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Hey Beach - every mountain seems insurmountable when you're standing at the bottom, looking straight up.
That's why you have to take it in Baby Steps & realize it's not going to all happen overnight. Figure out what you can do TODAY - set $5 aside to start a cash fund, review your budget for any small adjustments, attend a meeting, pick up a book, whatever will make a small difference in your world.
Your situation isn't very different than a lot of the women in your shoes face and this forum is FLLED with stories that attest to that. Off the top of my head you should read the history of these members:
ShootingStar1
LaTeeDa
honeypig
wisconsin
hopeful4
thousandwords53
FindingAmy
That's why you have to take it in Baby Steps & realize it's not going to all happen overnight. Figure out what you can do TODAY - set $5 aside to start a cash fund, review your budget for any small adjustments, attend a meeting, pick up a book, whatever will make a small difference in your world.
Your situation isn't very different than a lot of the women in your shoes face and this forum is FLLED with stories that attest to that. Off the top of my head you should read the history of these members:
ShootingStar1
LaTeeDa
honeypig
wisconsin
hopeful4
thousandwords53
FindingAmy
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