Alcoholic Lack of conscience or something else

Old 08-04-2019, 09:43 AM
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Alcoholic Lack of conscience or something else

Hi everyone,

The drama continues and I have decisions to make. I have been adamant that I would stand by her as she worked her recovery, stopped lying, came clean, didn’t endanger the kids, stopped doing wrong things behind my back. I don’t believe that is asking too much.

Another relapse, drove drunk with our youngest, violated the terms of her probation (didn’t get caught), the kids watched her over 3 days drunk fest. I took the kids one night to stay at a hotel. By 9 the next morning she was passed out drunk. Vomited in her sleep, vomited on the floor of the bedroom and 5 more times throughout the day. The house reeked of vodka from her exhalations. She even hid booze in one of the kids rooms.

All of this after paying for weekly therapy, monthly psychiatrist specializing in addiction, monthly addiction specialist a town over. Plus twice weekly AA meetings.

Found a secret Facebook account on her phone while she was passed out with all of the history deleted. No idea what she was doing, but the logins were every couple of days for over a year. I’m at my wits end with this person that looks my in the eye and tells me she loves me and lies her ass off.

I’m suspecting she has absolutely no conscience. Told her as much, probably shouldn’t have, but betraying me and her children, endangering them..again..wasting money by lying to specialists, violating probation etc etc demonstrates a serious lack of conscience. Dammit

Since her relapse she has gotten an AA sponsor, willing to do the steps with her, admitted for the first time (I think) she can never drink again. Etc. etc.

People keep telling me it’s the addiction, but how can anyone tell the difference between alcoholism and antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder? Is there a difference?

Why are they so egotistical, self centered, lying, conniving, backstabbing assholes even when not drinking. What the hell is it?

Beachn

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Old 08-04-2019, 09:47 AM
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She is in active addiction, and while she may have other personality disorders, she'll never know until she chooses to quit drinking for good. And neither will you.

The best you can do right now is protect yourself and the kids from the consequences of her behavior. Her addiction is more powerful than her need to get better right now. I'm sorry, this is a terrible position for your family to be in. But it doesn't matter at the moment why she is doing it--it matters only that she IS doing it, and that you and the kids need to be away from it one way or another.
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
Hi everyone,

The drama continues and I have decisions to make. I have been adamant that I would stand by her as she worked her recovery, stopped lying, came clean, didn’t endanger the kids, stopped doing wrong things behind my back. I don’t believe that is asking too much.

Another relapse, drove drunk with our youngest, violated the terms of her probation (didn’t get caught), the kids watched her over 3 days drunk fest. I took the kids one night to stay at a hotel. By 9 the next morning she was passed out drunk. Vomited in her sleep, vomited on the floor of the bedroom and 5 more times throughout the day. The house reeked of vodka from her exhalations. She even hid booze in one of the kids rooms.

All of this after paying for weekly therapy, monthly psychiatrist specializing in addiction, monthly addiction specialist a town over. Plus twice weekly AA meetings.

Found a secret Facebook account on her phone while she was passed out with all of the history deleted. No idea what she was doing, but the logins were every couple of days for over a year. I’m at my wits end with this person that looks my in the eye and tells me she loves me and lies her ass off.

I’m suspecting she has absolutely no conscience. Told her as much, probably shouldn’t have, but betraying me and her children, endangering them..again..wasting money by lying to specialists, violating probation etc etc demonstrates a serious lack of conscience. Dammit

Since her relapse she has gotten an AA sponsor, willing to do the steps with her, admitted for the first time (I think) she can never drink again. Etc. etc.

People keep telling me it’s the addiction, but how can anyone tell the difference between alcoholism and antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder? Is there a difference?

Why are they so egotistical, self centered, lying, conniving, backstabbing assholes even when not drinking. What the hell is it?

Beachn

my AH calls it incomprehensible demoralization. When the frontal lobes of a human brain lose the ability to fire synapses correctly it adversely affects a persons abilities to function. At this point, both your wife, and my AH are not fit for man nor beast. I too struggle with this change. AH was the best guy in the world 20 years ago. The spark plugs just are not firing right anymore....
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Old 08-04-2019, 10:04 AM
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the kids watched her over 3 days drunk fest. I took the kids one night to stay at a hotel.

this part is something you absolutely can control. no child should have to watch this. they have to start coming first in all things. the other parent has done more than enough damage. don't be part of the problem, be part of THEIR solution. they don't have a choice........
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Old 08-04-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
People keep telling me it’s the addiction, but how can anyone tell the difference between alcoholism and antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder? Is there a difference?

Why are they so egotistical, self centered, lying, conniving, backstabbing assholes even when not drinking. What the hell is it?
The difference between true NPD and alcoholism is like comparing apples to oranges. Not all mental illness is the same.

Now, that's not to say that they don't present a lot of the same things, plus different people are on different areas of the narcissism scale, not talking about true NPD.

Mental illness is selfish (not always necessarily in some dramatic and negative way). Alcoholism is selfish. The person is focused on - no surprise here - alcohol. Not on you, not on the marriage not on the children - alcohol and their relationship to alcohol.

You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it.

Originally Posted by Beachn View Post

thank you. I get it. Loud and clear. I’m being extremely selfish thinking I can return things to the way they were. What an ego. It’s just not possible. It’s not my fight. Mine is protecting my children and myself, educating them and showing them what a stable loving parent looks like.
When do you take up your own fight?
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Old 08-04-2019, 10:40 AM
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[QUOTE=trailmix;7240965]The difference between true NPD and alcoholism is like comparing apples to oranges. Not all mental illness is the same.

Now, that's not to say that they don't present a lot of the same things, plus different people are on different areas of the narcissism scale, not talking about true NPD.

Mental illness is selfish (not always necessarily in some dramatic and negative way). Alcoholism is selfish. The person is focused on - no surprise here - alcohol. Not on you, not on the marriage not on the children - alcohol and their relationship to alcohol.

You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it.



When do you take up your own fight?[/QUOTE]

Damn. Thank you.
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Old 08-04-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
People keep telling me it’s the addiction, but how can anyone tell the difference between alcoholism and antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder? Is there a difference?
As gently as I can...does it matter?

At some point, it’s her actions and the damage they cause that matter. You can stay caught up looking for reasons for a very long time, because if you could find the reasons, you could maybe find the solutions, right?

Except it doesn’t work that way.

Mitigating the damage to first, your kids, and second, to you, is the primary objective at this point, yes? She’s going to do what she’s going to do. You can’t help her, but you can help yourself and your children.

Wishing you strength and clarity.
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Old 08-04-2019, 01:14 PM
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What is incomprehensible behavior to us is merely out-of-control alcoholism to the active alcoholic. It won't ever make sense to those of us who have never struggled with the disorder.

It breaks apart marriages, families, scars children who become scarred adults (ask me how I know), left unchecked--it kills people.

Believe me, I wish I had some magic words for you that you could tell your wife to get her to "see the light", but there is no such thing.

You tell her what it is doing to you and the children, and her likely response is that you are "trying to control" her...which you are. Most of us have tried to control the drinking of the alcoholics we love. We hate what it does to them and we hate what it does to us.

For me, there was never any amount of arguing, pleading, tears, or threats that made one whit of difference in the drinking behavior of the alcoholics in my world.

The only choice that my late husband and I and the rest of the family had with my stepson was to let him go--to give up our efforts at controlling him--to give up our front-row seat to his alcoholic/addict 3-ring circus. We were accused of abandoning him in his need, but our presence made absolutely no difference in his behavior, and it was destroying us.

It breaks my heart that any family has to go through this--to make what, to those on the outside, seem like heartless decisions. But they don't understand and never will unless they have lived it.

You and your children deserve a happy, peaceful life. Accepting that as the truth is often the first step for us.
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Old 08-04-2019, 01:22 PM
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I came at this from the other direction, which is that my ex was pretty awful most of the marriage, certainly the entire time once we had a child. I had come to the conclusion he was a real bastard. I knew he was a heavy drinker, but he didn’t generally drink to throwing up or obvious passing out, and didn’t seem all that different when he was drinking versus not, so I never even thought to blame any of his ****** conduct on being an alcoholic. Of course, he was always drinking, I just didn’t realize that, so the not drinking versus drinking distinction was only in my head.

I realized I was miserable and the marriage was terrible for me a long, long time before I finally realized he was an alcoholic. When I came here and learned that a bunch of the things he did and does are actually super common among alcoholics, I still in my soul think the problem is mostly that he’s a bastard, and then some amount that he is an alcoholic. He was put on medication for a personality disorder a couple of months ago, and he such an unbelievable liar, not just about drinking but literally anything that doesn’t make the story look the way he wants it to on virtually all subjects, and he fits the pattern of an emotional abuser just as tightly as he fits the pattern of an alcoholic. The other thing that has always stood up to me is the fact that even when he was hammered, he always manage to act like he was a nice person when other people were around. If you can turn it on or off, it’s not this thing the booze brings out. That’s a decision. So, is he an alcoholic without a conscience? absolutely. Does he lack a conscience because he’s an alcoholic? I don’t think so. But more importantly, when he treats me like human garbage on purpose and unrelentingly, does it matter if his brain was damaged before the booze, or because of the booze? Not one GD bit.

I realize you made promises to yourself and to her about standing by her while she worked through this. But she’s been an a-hole to you for a very long time, and in many ways that not all alcoholics do. Is she a jerk because she’s an alcoholic, or an alcoholic who happens to be a bad person under it all? Doesn’t matter. She treats you like garbage. She put your children in danger. Take control of the thing you can, which is you, and your kids safety.

maybe someday she will have been sober long enough you can see what the sober version of her is, and decide whether that person still sucks. Maybe she will stay drunk until her dying day and the world will never know. What I do know is being treated like crap feels terrible and does you no good. I’m fairly certain now that my ex-husband will never be “in recovery” to the extent that would be necessary to ever see if there was another personality under there. I very much doubt there is, because I don’t think he has the depth of character to ever really dig deep.

I totally understand where this is going around in your head. I have wondered so many times if there was somebody else at the bottom of all of this misery so I get it. I think in my case, the answer is no, but I’ll never know for sure. May we both have and continue to have the strength to make that not our respective problems, and take care of the only people we really can.
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:54 PM
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Beachn…..don't let her not doing right by you, cause you to not do right by your children.....don't let her keep you sucked into the alcoholic or dysfunctional world.....It will damage your children.....
they need all of you, at this point...
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Old 08-04-2019, 06:35 PM
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It’s a chicken or egg thing... some alcoholics are lovely people who’s addiction turns into jerks.

Some alcoholics are assholes who happen to drink.

You don’t find out until the alcohol is removed, and the person recovers over time.

Neither of those are really your concern,, as you have no control in her drinking or not.

You have control over you, and you have control in what your kids are around.

It sucks that the responsibility of keeping your kids safe falls on you right now. It sucks that the person you live with treats you terribly.

No signs are pointing at the moment to her being better to you, or better for your kids. I’m sorry for that.

Please take care of you.
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:27 PM
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I have been adamant that I would stand by her as she worked her recovery, stopped lying, came clean, didn’t endanger the kids, stopped doing wrong things behind my back. I don’t believe that is asking too much.
This sounds so familiar to me. I remember feeling like it was my job to reason with my ex, to make him understand this stuff. The thing is, I don't remember anyone having to explain it to me. I took it as the bare minimum basics of being an adult, a parent.

Having circular conversations about why his bahavior was unacceptable, and could actually cause us to lose custody of the kids never got me anywhere. Worse, it was teaching the kids that this is how adults behave. That's the thing, I couldn't talk him into behaving like a responsible adult, and staying in that situation was providing the worst possible example to my kids. They were the ones learning- not from our words, but from our actions.

He's still doing what he wants, when he wants, but the kids and I no longer live in danger, fear and chaos. Life in our house doesn't revolve around his neverending crises.
I couldn't change him- and I really, really tried. All the talks in the world didn't improve his behavior. He was totally fine with everything he was doing. All of it worked for him. I was the one who wanted a change, so I had to make the change.

I don't mean that it was easy. Getting my kids out of a dangerous situation was the first step in a long (and ongoing) process of recovery from the damage I sustained growing up in an alcoholic home.

Keep yourself and the kids out of harm's way. She is not capable of acting in the best interests of your family right now.

I'm sorry you're experiencing this. Please keep reading and posting here. There's no magic solution, but there is a lot of support if you reach out. Take care.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
[left]People keep telling me it’s the addiction, but how can anyone tell the difference between alcoholism and antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder? Is there a difference?
Maybe there is a difference and maybe there is not. Does it matter?

Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
Why are they so egotistical, self centered, lying, conniving, backstabbing assholes even when not drinking. What the hell is it?
Who knows? Does it matter?

Can you continue to live like this? Even if she does start recovery, it's going to be a very, very long road until you reach your new "normal".

Personally, I bailed. XAH is still drinking himself to death but now he gets to do it in peace and I don't have to deal with him or his consequences. It's almost a win win situation! Except for the fact that he still blames me for making him drink
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:53 AM
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Honestly, does it matter, the why??

She put your child in danger, could have killed your child or someone else. That should be enough.

You cannot control how she acts, but you can control how you react.

So sorry this is still happening.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:16 AM
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Thanks everyone,

Why doesn’t matter, only the actions do. This post is just another example of me trying to out think and out smart the addiction instead of focusing on what is really important, my children and myself.

My obsession with this mountain of sh$& is the perfect distraction from looking inward and dealing with my own issues and accepting that the life I wanted is not to be, time to build a new one.

Beachn



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Old 08-05-2019, 07:47 AM
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You are right Beach. Her actions put your children's emotional and physical wellbeing in harms way, that should be all that matters. It's up to her to figure out they why's of her own behavior, if she chooses to do that.

In the mean time, put your children first every time and you won't go wrong.

Many hugs!
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
Thanks everyone,

Why doesn’t matter, only the actions do. This post is just another example of me trying to out think and out smart the addiction instead of focusing on what is really important, my children and myself.

My obsession with this mountain of sh$& is the perfect distraction from looking inward and dealing with my own issues and accepting that the life I wanted is not to be, time to build a new one.

Beachn



You sir said a mouthful of truth here! Most of us take a good long while to get to this type of thinking. Congrats on a steep learning curve.

Even if it is just one brick or spoonful of mortar a day start building that new life.

She may stop drinking and go into a profound recovery or not. She could stop drinking for years and relapse years later. There are no guarantees with her alcoholism.

What you have endured has been heart wrenching to just read about. Let us know how you get on Beachn.

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Old 08-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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It's not just about the alcohol or drug which lessen impulse control. Hate to say it but 'the party' or 'feeling high or buzzed' could've been a long standing desire before they became 'addicted'. In other words their own gratification always had priority but becomes more pronounced when they are addicted.

As noted selfishness is one of the issues. Selfish is selfish intoxicated or sober. If one is only worried about themselves above and beyond their basic survival there's not much one can do other than keep yourself and others safe. Stay out of their way and lives. Their consequences are for them to endure. Not yours or their kids.
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
This post is just another example of me trying to out think and out smart the addiction instead of focusing on what is really important, my children and myself. Beachn
Exactely!!!
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
The drama continues and I have decisions to make. I have been adamant that I would stand by her as she worked her recovery, stopped lying, came clean, didn’t endanger the kids, stopped doing wrong things behind my back. I don’t believe that is asking too much.
How many times have you said you would stubbornly stand by her as she proved over and over that she doesn't want you there? She wants to drink. Doesn't matter what she SAYS. Her actions say everything.

Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
All of this after paying for weekly therapy, monthly psychiatrist specializing in addiction, monthly addiction specialist a town over. Plus twice weekly AA meetings.
Why are you doing all of this for her? Stop doing this for her now -- she doesn't want it. Focus on therapy for you and the kids. What about Alanon?

Originally Posted by Beachn View Post
Found a secret Facebook account on her phone while she was passed out with all of the history deleted. No idea what she was doing, but the logins were every couple of days for over a year. I’m at my wits end with this person that looks my in the eye and tells me she loves me and lies her ass off.
Don't snoop on her phone. Just accept this: you can not trust an active addict, you can not control an active addict, you can not cure an active addict... and you sure as heck did not cause their addiction.

You can't change her.
You can change YOU.
You can and should and must protect the kids.

The kids should NOT be with her unless a court orders it and they should not be with her unsupervised!

What have you done for yourself and your kids lately?
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