struggling to maintain detachment and plan ahead
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: California
Posts: 143
struggling to maintain detachment and plan ahead
After 20 years with my AH I am finding it so hard to maintain the emotional detachment that I really need to have during this divorce process. It's turned so messy (at least as I am perceiving it). It would be so easy to go back to saying okay let's just put this divorce off, then go back to status quo. I am just feeling like I am not strong enough to do all this.
AH got SO ANGRY when he found out I would be requesting soberlink testing. SO ANGRY. To be clear, he has never been physically abusive but I can't even tell you how much I dread his anger. He said he would also be hiring an attorney and would spend anything it took to fight me on that. (like we even have all that much to spend!) He would agree to the custody request (that I have full custody for the first year with 2x week visits & every other weekend, but no overnights), would voluntarily "give" me child support. He would sign a formal legal statement that he would not drink the night before having the boys or when they are with him. But no sobriety tests. He feels it would be an insult to his integrity and that the boys would lose respect for him. Truth is, he does not drink every day and he does not drive while drinking with the boys. I caved and said okay I'll not request the soberlink testing. And suddenly we were able to start talking about how we could work all this out.
I'm not too hung up on the soberlink because it really is only a temporary thing and I do think he can keep his word about not drinking with the boys with him. But wow do things feel muddy now... he wants for just us to work out this divorce thing, no lawyers, no courts.. he will be glad to pay me child/spousal support for a while and he's okay with me having full custody for the first year.. but I just think it's all based on how he feels right now and so it could change if I didn't have the legal backing of the court orders. I don't know.
I'm meeting with my attorney again this week. I feel so incredibly lost. It was almost better when we were completely at odds. I put in an application and deposit on an apartment - he agreed to also sign on the lease (they don't do co-signs only co-leases) or I wouldn't have been able to qualify for the apartment (I could if I had the court ordered child/spousal support).
Oh wow, I'm just going to stop here. Thank you so much if you've read this and for any thoughts or similar experiences.
AH got SO ANGRY when he found out I would be requesting soberlink testing. SO ANGRY. To be clear, he has never been physically abusive but I can't even tell you how much I dread his anger. He said he would also be hiring an attorney and would spend anything it took to fight me on that. (like we even have all that much to spend!) He would agree to the custody request (that I have full custody for the first year with 2x week visits & every other weekend, but no overnights), would voluntarily "give" me child support. He would sign a formal legal statement that he would not drink the night before having the boys or when they are with him. But no sobriety tests. He feels it would be an insult to his integrity and that the boys would lose respect for him. Truth is, he does not drink every day and he does not drive while drinking with the boys. I caved and said okay I'll not request the soberlink testing. And suddenly we were able to start talking about how we could work all this out.
I'm not too hung up on the soberlink because it really is only a temporary thing and I do think he can keep his word about not drinking with the boys with him. But wow do things feel muddy now... he wants for just us to work out this divorce thing, no lawyers, no courts.. he will be glad to pay me child/spousal support for a while and he's okay with me having full custody for the first year.. but I just think it's all based on how he feels right now and so it could change if I didn't have the legal backing of the court orders. I don't know.
I'm meeting with my attorney again this week. I feel so incredibly lost. It was almost better when we were completely at odds. I put in an application and deposit on an apartment - he agreed to also sign on the lease (they don't do co-signs only co-leases) or I wouldn't have been able to qualify for the apartment (I could if I had the court ordered child/spousal support).
Oh wow, I'm just going to stop here. Thank you so much if you've read this and for any thoughts or similar experiences.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
I think he's angry about SoberLink not because of his "integrity" (if he really had integrity, he would not have a problem with demonstrating that he's sober when the kids are around) but because the prospect of breathalyzer testing means that you are telling him when he can and can't drink. I have noticed (on these boards and in real life) that alcoholics seem to get unreasonably angry at the possibility that they might have to prove their sobriety. I think the anger is the manifestation of fear that something, anything, might get in the way of being able to drink at will (such as a court order requiring SoberLink testing). As long as the alcoholic thinks that they can make free decisions about whether or not to drink, they have a (false) sense of power over alcohol. They lose that sense of power when they perceive that an external force like you or the court or anything else is controlling when they can and can't drink, through your insistence on SoberLink. A reasonable person would not threaten to hire an attorney to fight a logical request that they demonstrate sobriety.
I think you are probably right that your ex may change his opinion at any moment. If he's being co-operative now, you've bought yourself a bit of time to get your ducks in a row, but I think you are wise to get legal backing for any custody and child support arrangement.
Remember that child support is owed to the child or children. It's not something that your ex is giving you out of the goodness of his heart. It is his obligation to shoulder his share of the financial responsibility for his children, with you as their primary parent. Don't let yourself fall into thinking that you should be grateful that he's giving you the money or that this is a kind gesture on his part. It is the bare minimum that he should be doing.
I think you are probably right that your ex may change his opinion at any moment. If he's being co-operative now, you've bought yourself a bit of time to get your ducks in a row, but I think you are wise to get legal backing for any custody and child support arrangement.
Remember that child support is owed to the child or children. It's not something that your ex is giving you out of the goodness of his heart. It is his obligation to shoulder his share of the financial responsibility for his children, with you as their primary parent. Don't let yourself fall into thinking that you should be grateful that he's giving you the money or that this is a kind gesture on his part. It is the bare minimum that he should be doing.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,646
I completely get how you feel like just throwing your hands up in the air and just going back to the status quo, it's tough going right now.
It's very nice that he wants to do everything without court orders etc, however in your circumstance I wouldn't do it and the reason is the alcohol.
You know alcoholism is progressive and you have stated before you think he holds back on his drinking because you are there, that may well be true, he hides it better or perhaps doesn't drink quite as much as he would like to. You asked him to stop drinking, he chose not to now you and the kids are leaving, you see where his loyalty is (or where the alcoholism is).
Your STBXH may well have integrity now, but you can't know where his alcoholism is going and you do know this distorts his judgement, so how can you trust that? Forget trusting him or not, don't trust the alcoholic voice!
Put another way alcohol had a big hand in destroying your marriage and severely limiting his relationship with his children, it can certainly destroy any integrity as well.
All that said - here are maybe some ways to make your life easier:
- When do you move? Keep your eye on that date. Once you are out of there you won't have to have these confrontational conversations and in fact you have his verbal agreement right now, how about you present the support paperwork after you move?
- Have the lawyer draw up the child support/visitation agreement and spousal support papers and tell him you need a contract, If you need to just tell him you are protecting the children and you need it for proof of income. Both those things are true.
- For now, detach. You have his verbal agreement for now, you have a plan on moving, no need for these emotional conversations. You have time to think about the sober link.
The burden right now is really heavy, I suggest you drop it for now and later you can come back to this (once you are out of the house).
It's very nice that he wants to do everything without court orders etc, however in your circumstance I wouldn't do it and the reason is the alcohol.
You know alcoholism is progressive and you have stated before you think he holds back on his drinking because you are there, that may well be true, he hides it better or perhaps doesn't drink quite as much as he would like to. You asked him to stop drinking, he chose not to now you and the kids are leaving, you see where his loyalty is (or where the alcoholism is).
Your STBXH may well have integrity now, but you can't know where his alcoholism is going and you do know this distorts his judgement, so how can you trust that? Forget trusting him or not, don't trust the alcoholic voice!
Put another way alcohol had a big hand in destroying your marriage and severely limiting his relationship with his children, it can certainly destroy any integrity as well.
All that said - here are maybe some ways to make your life easier:
- When do you move? Keep your eye on that date. Once you are out of there you won't have to have these confrontational conversations and in fact you have his verbal agreement right now, how about you present the support paperwork after you move?
- Have the lawyer draw up the child support/visitation agreement and spousal support papers and tell him you need a contract, If you need to just tell him you are protecting the children and you need it for proof of income. Both those things are true.
- For now, detach. You have his verbal agreement for now, you have a plan on moving, no need for these emotional conversations. You have time to think about the sober link.
The burden right now is really heavy, I suggest you drop it for now and later you can come back to this (once you are out of the house).
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 436
It would be so easy to go back to saying okay let's just put this divorce off, then go back to status quo. I am just feeling like I am not strong enough to do all this.
You are strong enough, look how far you have come. It's not easy to go forward, it's scary because you don't know what the future holds for you. Now is the time to have faith.
You can always go back later......when he has sorted his s*** out, when you can rebuild your relationship and change the dynamic and you don't have to return to the status quo. Going back now, nothing will change. Alcohol will still hold the number one position in his heart. Try to remember it's alcohol talking, it's feeling threatened and will say and do anything to save itself.
AH got SO ANGRY
replace AH with ALCOHOL
He may say he is cooperating and make promises of voluntary payments etc but actions speak louder than words. Try to file the words but trust his actions. It's hard to separate the two in your head but if you can do that the situation becomes a lot less muddy.
Hang on in there.......
You are strong enough, look how far you have come. It's not easy to go forward, it's scary because you don't know what the future holds for you. Now is the time to have faith.
You can always go back later......when he has sorted his s*** out, when you can rebuild your relationship and change the dynamic and you don't have to return to the status quo. Going back now, nothing will change. Alcohol will still hold the number one position in his heart. Try to remember it's alcohol talking, it's feeling threatened and will say and do anything to save itself.
AH got SO ANGRY
replace AH with ALCOHOL
He may say he is cooperating and make promises of voluntary payments etc but actions speak louder than words. Try to file the words but trust his actions. It's hard to separate the two in your head but if you can do that the situation becomes a lot less muddy.
Hang on in there.......
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: California
Posts: 143
Thanks so much for the replies.
Last night as as I was writing this original post, AH had about 5 beers + Valium in him and was talking on the phone with his mom (master manipulator) and had the boys each talk with her too. I start catching pieces of conversations about them going to see her this summer (she’s 2 states away). My oldest son comes in to where my desk is and tells me “we’re going to fly out and see grandma this summer!” . I told him to let’s see how it goes.
Long story short, my anger was deep and hot over this since it was a manipulative maneuver - we are in the middle of a divorce where I am asking for and he verbally agreed that I would have full custody this first year. And he tells the kids they’re going on this big trip without talking to me first!!??!!??
Even though I know it’s not a good idea to try to communicate with someone who is drunk I let it all out. Everything I’ve ever needed/wanted to say to AH. I regret nothing I said except that the boys heard it all. We’ve never had fights in front of the kids and this really upset them, especially my oldest who feels the blow up was his fault since he told me about the trip. I reassured him over and over that none of any of this was his fault. It was almost all me doing the yelling at AH too. I’m not even sure what I’m feeling right now except like I just emotionally wounded my own kid. I don’t think it can get much lower than that.
Last night as as I was writing this original post, AH had about 5 beers + Valium in him and was talking on the phone with his mom (master manipulator) and had the boys each talk with her too. I start catching pieces of conversations about them going to see her this summer (she’s 2 states away). My oldest son comes in to where my desk is and tells me “we’re going to fly out and see grandma this summer!” . I told him to let’s see how it goes.
Long story short, my anger was deep and hot over this since it was a manipulative maneuver - we are in the middle of a divorce where I am asking for and he verbally agreed that I would have full custody this first year. And he tells the kids they’re going on this big trip without talking to me first!!??!!??
Even though I know it’s not a good idea to try to communicate with someone who is drunk I let it all out. Everything I’ve ever needed/wanted to say to AH. I regret nothing I said except that the boys heard it all. We’ve never had fights in front of the kids and this really upset them, especially my oldest who feels the blow up was his fault since he told me about the trip. I reassured him over and over that none of any of this was his fault. It was almost all me doing the yelling at AH too. I’m not even sure what I’m feeling right now except like I just emotionally wounded my own kid. I don’t think it can get much lower than that.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 293
Hi Perse
That is so tough. That is all he is doing is manipulating you. He feels like you are trying to control things and that is not sitting well with him so he is doing what he can to get that control back.
You need distance between the two of you and the rules need to be set out by someone who he cannot manipulate.
Lean on your attorney. They can deal with the situation of your AH taking the kids out of state because those situations will come up. Your attorney will also know what kind of sh#t your AH will try and pull in the future and will help you put a plan in place.
There were many times in my past where I wished that I had a mediator to help me deal with my ex because he did not respect me and because of that he would bully and manipulate me.
Keep moving forward.
That is so tough. That is all he is doing is manipulating you. He feels like you are trying to control things and that is not sitting well with him so he is doing what he can to get that control back.
You need distance between the two of you and the rules need to be set out by someone who he cannot manipulate.
Lean on your attorney. They can deal with the situation of your AH taking the kids out of state because those situations will come up. Your attorney will also know what kind of sh#t your AH will try and pull in the future and will help you put a plan in place.
There were many times in my past where I wished that I had a mediator to help me deal with my ex because he did not respect me and because of that he would bully and manipulate me.
Keep moving forward.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
So basically you should go off of his word? And please know, child support is not a gift, or a choice. It's supporting the children he created with you.
You don't want to be constantly in court. Look at the big picture, things that could and will come up, years from now, and get that in your decree.
You don't want to be constantly in court. Look at the big picture, things that could and will come up, years from now, and get that in your decree.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 436
I’m not even sure what I’m feeling right now except like I just emotionally wounded my own kid. I don’t think it can get much lower than that.
Don't beat yourself up for expressing your feelings. I understand they didn't come out in the best way but it's never easy. Forgive yourself for having an emotional outburst, it's been brewing for a long time.
Much better out than in. Your kids will come to understand in time.
Do something kind for yourself today.
Don't beat yourself up for expressing your feelings. I understand they didn't come out in the best way but it's never easy. Forgive yourself for having an emotional outburst, it's been brewing for a long time.
Much better out than in. Your kids will come to understand in time.
Do something kind for yourself today.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,646
Try not to beat yourself up too much, sometimes anger boils over, especially when you are trying to remain detached/calm etc all the time.
Perhaps mention to your son that you heard bits of the conversation, so you already knew.
If this is the first argument they have heard they are well ahead, in most alcoholic families where there is conflict the kiddies are in bed listening to the parents fight (broad generalization but you get the idea).
We all take emotional knocks as children, some many, some few, but we come out the other end basically in one piece!
Perhaps mention to your son that you heard bits of the conversation, so you already knew.
If this is the first argument they have heard they are well ahead, in most alcoholic families where there is conflict the kiddies are in bed listening to the parents fight (broad generalization but you get the idea).
We all take emotional knocks as children, some many, some few, but we come out the other end basically in one piece!
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Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 500
Perse, I wouldn't do anything without the attorney. You got a taste of what that will be like (i.e. we are taking a big trip......) Without the attorney or court involvement there will be no-one to hold him accountable other than you. I am amazed at how my divorce is turning out- 2 years into the process I had to hire the attorney I initially passed on because he is super aggressive and I didn't want to set the tone for the divorce. This is a marathon not a sprint- you need a great coach who will protect you along the way. Its great that he is not drinking with the kids at this point, its great until it isn't. Everyone told me this is a progressive disease and I thought wow those people are married to some real monsters mine isn't close to being that bad.................Turns out we were just at different points on the alcoholism timeline and it has become that bad. Please protect yourself and your children for the long haul.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
I strongly agree, talk with your attorney and most importantly talk with her about him putting his name on your lease. I understand money is tight and that you may not qualify to lease it on your own but you are trying to legally separate from him and by him signing your lease that isn’t happening. If his name is on your lease he can come and go as he pleases unless you get something in writing that your attorney draws up and he signs preventing him from doing that.
As for the children and visits with Grandma, until all of this is in writing and both have signed off on any agreements, he is certainly entitled to take his children to go visit his mother.
Divorce is never easy but believing an alcoholic’s nice words about alimony, child support and visitation and have those important things tied up nicely and finished is a fairytale. What they agree to today is what they fight most hard about next week. Trust in your attorney not in his words.
As for the children and visits with Grandma, until all of this is in writing and both have signed off on any agreements, he is certainly entitled to take his children to go visit his mother.
Divorce is never easy but believing an alcoholic’s nice words about alimony, child support and visitation and have those important things tied up nicely and finished is a fairytale. What they agree to today is what they fight most hard about next week. Trust in your attorney not in his words.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
i gotta add my 1.5 cents on the lease....DO NOT have him co-sign on anything going forward!!! that is just a bad bad plan. it keeps you hooked and it gives him leverage.
i'd also suggest to stop talking to him NOW about money and child support and all of that. he cannot be trusted and any statements you make about finances can be used against you.
don't keep handing the guy with gun more bullets.............
i'd also suggest to stop talking to him NOW about money and child support and all of that. he cannot be trusted and any statements you make about finances can be used against you.
don't keep handing the guy with gun more bullets.............
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,646
Yes and here is another thing to perhaps take in to consideration.
When you are divorcing, splitting up, etc - emotions change, for both people.
Drunk or sober, alcoholic or not. What may seem perfectly reasonable today - Of course I will always support my children and help you out! Of course I will (enter whatever the issue is here), changes.
For instance there will be other people giving him suggestions. You pay her how much? How much does it cost to give a kid some clothes and feed them??
She is taking advantage of you, she left you now quack quack quack.
These other people may even be well meaning! But people can take sides.
Now, even subtracting these people I made up, his thoughts may well change. Why am I sitting here alone, feeling sad and they are all happy over there and I have to give them all my money and etc etc.
None of this may happen but I can pretty much guarantee there will be some push-back along the way - at least in my experience.
When you are divorcing, splitting up, etc - emotions change, for both people.
Drunk or sober, alcoholic or not. What may seem perfectly reasonable today - Of course I will always support my children and help you out! Of course I will (enter whatever the issue is here), changes.
For instance there will be other people giving him suggestions. You pay her how much? How much does it cost to give a kid some clothes and feed them??
She is taking advantage of you, she left you now quack quack quack.
These other people may even be well meaning! But people can take sides.
Now, even subtracting these people I made up, his thoughts may well change. Why am I sitting here alone, feeling sad and they are all happy over there and I have to give them all my money and etc etc.
None of this may happen but I can pretty much guarantee there will be some push-back along the way - at least in my experience.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: California
Posts: 143
Thank you all so much for your voices of experience, reason, and wisdom. I appreciate it so much. I am going to spend time in meditation and also seeking guidance from HP - that is when I feel the most peace and clarity. Thank you again. I'm so grateful for this support forum.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
Hello PerSe,
I understand being afraid of someone's anger and can understand why it is hard to stand up for yourself when all you get is anger.
Hang in there! Keep putting your children and yourself ahead of your husband's addiction--because that is what has been running the show for so long.
Come here any time to vent or ask questions...we get it!
I understand being afraid of someone's anger and can understand why it is hard to stand up for yourself when all you get is anger.
Hang in there! Keep putting your children and yourself ahead of your husband's addiction--because that is what has been running the show for so long.
Come here any time to vent or ask questions...we get it!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
How do you know when an alcoholic is lying?
Their lips are moving.
Trust your lawyer and get everything into the legal divorce decree. Protect yourself and the minor children not the adult alcoholic.
(((((hugs)))))
Peace,
B.
Their lips are moving.
Trust your lawyer and get everything into the legal divorce decree. Protect yourself and the minor children not the adult alcoholic.
(((((hugs)))))
Peace,
B.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 415
I agree that you must get all of YOUR stipulations into the divorce decree. Do not go on his word. Please don’t take this wrong but you said when you put your boundaries/requirements out there he got angry and then you backed down and proceeded to justify him and his anger on your post. Now I agree that any divorce and/or relationship is a negotiation. But if you feel strongly on something stick to your guns and get it. I am going through divorce as well and while there are no children involved I know how hard it is and how easy to fall back into old behaviors of allowing the manipulation and gas lighting just cuz it seems easier at the time, but at what cost to you?
Hang in there and you ARE strong enough! I know it s end the road is long at this point but there is light at the end. I made it and am closing on my own house next Friday and moving out. You can do this and your life will look very different after you get through all of the muck.
Hugs to you and remember to breathe!
Hang in there and you ARE strong enough! I know it s end the road is long at this point but there is light at the end. I made it and am closing on my own house next Friday and moving out. You can do this and your life will look very different after you get through all of the muck.
Hugs to you and remember to breathe!
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
I'm not too hung up on the soberlink because it really is only a temporary thing and I do think he can keep his word about not drinking with the boys with him.
Her response: Bring. It. On.
Soberlink is his opportunity to prove that your suspicions are just that - merely suspicions. The fact that he doesn't want to take advantage of this opportunity says a lot.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
^^^ Yes. That is how a normal person would respond to the request to use SoberLink. SoberLink even markets itself as a way to build up a track record of sobriety which the monitored party can use - not just as a way to "catch" someone drinking. If he's stomping and snorting about not wanting to be monitored, to me that suggests that this is all about power and control and not wanting someone to tell him what he can or can't do (i.e. drink).
If he stopped and thought for a moment, he would see that SoberLink is actually a tool that he could use to his benefit in order to leverage more time with his kids. But he is not stopping and thinking because he's using alcoholic brain.
If he stopped and thought for a moment, he would see that SoberLink is actually a tool that he could use to his benefit in order to leverage more time with his kids. But he is not stopping and thinking because he's using alcoholic brain.
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: uk
Posts: 2,428
Originally Posted by Sasha1972 
But he is not stopping and thinking because he's using alcoholic brain.
So very destructive to them and others all around.
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