trailmix

And even you don't see it really?

"I have been struggling with this concept because I have never viewed my husband as an abuser, just as an alcoholic who is sick and not to blame".

There is no need for blame. What there is, is a need for you to look after yourself? It's one thing for someone to have an illness, in this case mental illness, it's another to be abused by said person. Compassion from afar is good enough here (and I mean compassion as in, wow that's too bad that happened to him.), you don't need to be anyone's doormat.

I really encourage you to take all the help offered to you. Let people who want to help you, help. What harm is there in that?

Right now, doesn't matter if your children get angry. Honestly, you cannot let teens run your life, not teens and not an alcoholic.

Good lord that sounds like a recipe for disaster (probably because it is!)

Ariesagain

Amaranth, I was wondering. When you were growing up, were you the good, quiet, thoughtful, obedient child? Were those characteristics rewarded in your family or culture?

I could be completely wrong, of course, but I have the sense that your ex-husband and even your children take your self-effacement and sacrifices for their wellbeing completely for granted...like you’ve always put everyone else first and that’s how they feel it should be.

It’s very difficult to learn how to stop being that good girl and to stop waiting for the recognition that never comes, yes?

I hope your social worker can help you find a therapist who can help you get past that programmed behavior and learn new skills in standing up for yourself. Believe me, I understand how hard it is to change when you’ve been a pleaser all your life.

I so hope these new resources can help move you forward to a life where you are appreciated and happy.

Wishing you all the best...

Amaranth

I went to see the social worker today. He asked for my story which sounded like a soap opera as I was telling him. He straight away says I've been abused. This I have real trouble with. He says it's psychological abuse. He asked what help I wanted. I don't really know what I want but I thought maybe mediation would help. He says it's too late for that since the process of a contentious divorce has started. He said my husband would have to go willingly anyway and he doesn't imagine he would do that.

So he says he's referring me to the mental health department, for emotional support. This has really upset me. Is my mental health in question? I haven't told anyone about the social worker and I don't want to. Not my parents, not my friends. I'm not sure if I feel ashamed or like I'm telling tales on my husband. I'm scared to get in so deep with the "authorites". I'm so frustrated because it could be so easy. My husband could just cooperate...... but I guess that's been the problem all along.......he can't and that's why we're in this mess.

I'm scared about how everyone will react to me going down this road. By everyone I mean my kids, my in-laws and to an extent my friends. It's just all such a drama but I don't see any other option, other than walk away with nothing but I'm not prepared to do that.

I am aware I need to do something about my stress levels. I can't afford to suffer this much stress, I've just had cancer and i know that stress is not what I need. I also know that if the help I get from the mental health department is not what I need I can just walk away.

At least I hope I can. I'm very anxious about having all these people involved in my life.

trailmix

I understand that, I would be too. But! I really hope you will accept their help.

You haven't mentioned much about what actually went on between the two of you Amaranth (which is absolutely fine, of course) but just based on the situation - the farm, the disregard for your feelings, him behaving as the victim to your children - just these few things all point in the direction of abuse.

The social worker has no horse in this race. I would take his words to heart. His only motivation in all of this is to help you. He doesn't get paid more for doing that, his ego isn't so big that he might want to pat himself on the back for a job well done with another referral? I take it that is not the sense you got.

It's tough to take help sometimes, some of us are just not wired that way. Also, your STBX is the alcoholic and the one with the problem, why are they sending you for help!

There is no way you can live with an alcoholic over that period of time and not have it affect you, it just doesn't happen unless you are made of steel. The above, may be your truth and you don't have to assign blame, doesn't mean it didn't hurt you, true?

That doesn't make you weak or mentally ill or any other label, it makes you human. You don't have to share it with anyone else either, this help is for you, nothing to do with them.

I'm not sure what the connection between this and "walking away with nothing" is. I know you were referred to the social worker but that has nothing to do with the divorce per-se correct?

hopeful4

I very gently encourage you to consider the help. There is no need to discuss it will all sorts of people. You deserve to get whatever support you need. There is no shame in that, I promise!

Sending huge hugs.

Amaranth

I'm not sure what the connection between this and "walking away with nothing" is. I know you were referred to the social worker but that has nothing to do with the divorce per-se correct?

this is a good point. I guess in my mind if I just forget about getting divorced, forget about splitting the assests and walk away, the story will be over, I won't have to think about it ever again and I can get on with rebuilding my life with what I've got (not very much) and I won't need social workers and help.

I'm glad you have made me think about this trailmix. Even if I did that I'm not just going to get instantly better. It's not like flicking a switch. I guess that line of thinking is a way for me to avoid doing what I have to do. There is no other option. I have to get divorced. I have to work through it or I will never be free. It's not like there are two choices - divorce, stress, conflict or no divorce, joy, peace, happy ever after.

I guess that's what my husband is offering me. He stays in the house, doesn't get divorced, I get nothing, because I left, he carries on as normal. I go away and leave him in peace.

That is how he is behaving. He is not prepared to talk about anything and I am being forced to take action through the court. I'm being manipulated through my kids and his family because no one is challenging his take on things. The kids think that what he says is correct. You left mum, it's our house. Poor dad. How do you think he feels?

A friend of my husband's said to me the other day "pick your battles but you're not going to win this one. You'll never get him out of that house. He won't give it up".

It's not about winning or losing or who is right, who is wrong. It's about being legally married and joint legal owners of our property. My husband is managing to muddy all the water and no one seems to be able to see the facts. I don't understand why nobody has pointed out to him that I am legally entitled to half. I don't understand why his family have not explained this to him. I don't understand how he can't grasp this himself.

trailmix

Wow his "friend" sounds about as reasonable as he is. (I would never speak to that guy again btw).

I can totally understand how he can't grasp it. He may not be stupid, he may understand that is the law, it's pretty common knowledge but he doesn't have to LIKE it and if he doesn't like it isn't that terrible for him and isn't he a victim to that too! Poor guy, just trying to keep a roof over his head quack quack quack.

My parent's were married for 21 years and my Father still complained about having to pay her out for the house. Which is too bad and he is entitled to vent I guess. Still had to pay the money out.

You know, this is not a good spot you are in, I totally see that. Seems a bit twilight zoneish doesn't it?

If you had been selfish this could all look very different. If you had repeatedly told your children what a "loser" their Dad is, how he has never supported any of you properly, how he is unmotivated and selfish and self-centered and a poor excuse for a Husband and Father.

If you had played the victim.

This would all be playing out in reverse probably. People would be telling him to get to rehab as soon as possible. How could you treat those kids and your wife that way! Look at how Mom has struggled and tried to hold things together. Why did you take her house away from her while you just sit here and drink!

But it's not that way and aren't you glad because none of that is right or normal.

Taking the high road means that road might be a bit lonely. People who are not on that road with you will lag behind and may, hopefully, someday see where you are coming from (and I mean your kids, the rest are irrelevant really).

In general, people are led to believe that their children will love them and support them if the parent loves them and looks after them and is there for them, not perfect, but certainly attempting to be the best parent they can be. That's not the truth. In some cases, especially in dysfunctional situations like yours, kids get confused, they don't have the life experience (yet) to see what is going on here.

For years they have lived with this man who sits in his chair and tells his tales of woe, such as they are and NOW he can tell the tale of his fellow addict's suicide.

It is nonsensical and I'm sure you are thinking wth, is this really happening?

Yes it is and you are powerless over their behaviour and thought processes. What you really don't need right now is a bunch of nay-sayers. I really hope you set up that boundary with your children that they are not to speak to you about the divorce or their Dad or the farm. That it is none of their business and assets are business so they can keep their noses out of it. You, on the other hand, will have to accept that they can't understand that right now and that's ok. It's something that can be dealt with a little later on, after the farm has been dealt with.

Remember, you never have to JADE: - Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain

AnvilheadII

if your name is on the MORTGAGE, the only way he can have you removed is by:
1) Refinancing the loan, which requires your permission
2) Selling the property, which also requires your permission

if your name is on the DEED only, you can sign a quit claim deed and relinquish your rights to the property.

so you can't just "walk away" and be done with it all.

i am certain your AH is well aware that you DO have rights to the property. as i am certain he is trying to bully you into thinking otherwise. if you live in a community property state there is no getting around your legal claim and entitlement to your HALF.

i'd work out what you really want.
then i'd look at how feasible each of the items on that list are to achieve.
the property and the children are entirely separate issues.

dandylion

Amaranth......I. also, encourage you to accept the help. You can refer back to my last 2 posts to you...everything that I said...I would say it over again, to you...lol.
Amaranth, I have been working with people all of my adult life....and, you know one thing that I have noticed? The people who are willing to accept help when they need it...even if they don't want to....are the people who get better and flourish....no matter how bad and hopeless their problems seemed, at first....
It is not a sign of weakness to accept help. It, is actually a sign of strength, in my opinion. Accepting help means that a person is committed to changing things and making their life better......and, is Smart enough to realize that accepting help is a tool to that end. The are determined to do whatever they have to do to accomplish their goals.
I don't call someone who accepts help "weak"....I call them a "SURVIVOR"....I c all them "SMART"...and, I call them "STRONG"...…

All of the helping people...the physiotherapist...social worker....lawyers....courtroom people.....are there to be on Your Side!! They have dedicated their lives to the work of benefitting others---they are concerned about your best welfare, more than anything else.
They will understand...and they will go to great lengths, for you....if you don't block them.

I understand more than you probably think I do...LOL...lol...
I will tell you a story.....I was born in a place where there were certain very strong cultural characteristics....because my people were all in the same region for many generations. It was/is a cultural norm for them not to trust anyone outside of their immediate family. It was frowned on to talk about the family, in any way...to any outsiders. they took pride in not accepting help from anyone...especially...anyone from a government organization...or a helping organization....like social workers, mental health people, etc.
They took priced in bein tough and resilient...like hickory sticks...lol.....
They WERE strong...because they had to be strong to survive for generations in an isolated and tough environment. They had many wonderful characteristics, also!
I was very young, at the time...and, I observed all of this...their wonderfulness...and their stubborn independence and distrust of all "outsiders"....I, also, saw how they suffered, at times, for not accepting help or not trusting others. That part did make it harder for them than life had to be.
If you were raised in such a culture...I really do understand how you might have some of the feelings that you do....
Amaranth, even though I love/loved my people, dearly....they didn't always serve themselves well by not accepting help and trust those who were willing to help them out....I wish that they had done so.....(Most of them have passed, now...except for my generation)…….

I am saying all of this to you....because I do understand how you may be struggling with some of your feelings...and, I know how hard that is....
But, amaranth...we live and we learn...and, I sooo encourage you to accept the help...because, I know that you won't be sorry that you did!
there comes a time, in all of our lives that we need a boost from others...from time to time. None of us is an island....

Amaranth

Thank you all as ever for your wisdom and comforting words. I have been reading here

http://www.djburr.com/codependent-personality.html

The part titled signs and symptoms .... I recognised myself ......

My fear of his anger determines what I say or do

I must stay loyal to my loved one no matter what he puts me through. It is against my core belief if I abandon him when he has a problem.

I think I am chronically codependent. I've been on a programme for years and I don't seem to be getting any better.

I have to get my head around the fact that the help being offered to me is for me. It has nothing to do with him. Yes, my current problems are a result of being married to him but they are my problems and I have to somehow disentangle him from them in my mind. It doesn't actually matter how he reacts. I have to try and get that thinking out of the equation. I can't continue to live in fear that what I do may cause him to drink himself to death, kill himself, go insane, turn my kids against me, burn the house down (yes he did say he would burn it down before he would sell it) ..... All the fear I have about what he might do.

I really need to learn how to put myself first and leave him to his own craziness

trailmix

I do hear codependency in what you write Amaranth and also the kids behaviour is codependent as well, of course. I also hear someone who has been abused and threatened over a long period of time.

It happens! It's also hard to overcome in some ways. It's fear, true? I know, that's over-simplifying, but that's the bottom line I think.

Fear doesn't have to be rational (that's the beauty of it right!) I have faced this a lot in my life. It can be overcome, it takes a little work and the view on the other side is so much better (did I mention it's SO much better!).

It's hard though, no doubt and this help that you will be receiving can be the beginning of working through this.

Now, will your divorce, the sale or buy out of the house etc etc wait for you to feel better? Probably not. The beauty of having that additional support offered is that you can lean on others, which will help. Perspective checks, talking it out, having them assure you. You have us as well.

When you know your thinking is based in fear and it doesn't even seem correct to you, you can run that by trusted others for that perspective check. That's where some of the help comes in. For years it has probably been drilled in to you that you are responsible for all these people, for all their practical needs like food and shelter and to be the sounding board and the "fixer" for the alcoholic. He's suicidal? You need to talk him down from that. He's complaining about how YOU are - you need to change etc etc.

Living with that is demoralizing and plays a hard game against any self esteem and confidence you might have had going in.

Lean on others, start taking care of yourself. They are not going to crumble. If he burns the farm down he does, you can't stand outside with a bucket.

If he chooses to kill himself (and of course I hope he does not) you also need to know, really know, it has nothing to do with you. He is a grown man and he will make his own decisions. You have no more control over him than you do the stranger sitting at the next table in a restaurant.

Detach, detach, detach.

Sasha1972

I’m going to ask - how common is divorce in your extended family or community? I’m asking because your husband sounds like every jerk-getting-divorced-ever - it’s not fair, why should she get half the house that I worked for, why should I have to pay her out, SHE left poor ME, etc. If I heard this sad tale from someone, I would think, “yeah, whatever buddy, the law says what it says and half the house is hers, quit b!tching and do the right thing”. But if I were in a community where divorce is rare and/or I didn’t know much about how divorce works and how common this nonsense is , I might be more easily persuaded to feel sorry for the jerk. Is that the case for you?

Amaranth

Divorce is not common in our community because marriage is really uncommon. We live in a kind of new age hippy place. Divorce in my husband's family is frowned upon due to their religion. My parents are in a 50+ year happy marriage, my husband's parents are in a 50+ year not very happy marriage. We have very little experience of divorce.

your husband sounds like every jerk-getting-divorced-ever - it’s not fair, why should she get half the house that I worked for, why should I have to pay her out, SHE left poor ME, etc.


Sasha 1972, have you met my husband? This is exactly him. This quote is making me laugh in a dark kind of way.

SO I am waiting for something to happen. No news from anyone about whether or not the Judge has sent a letter to my husband. I have not seen or spoken to him in over 2 months. I stopped talking to my kids about him too because it was too stressful.

Until last night..... my kid who has been away at college for 2 months, but comes back every weekend ..... has gained such an amazing new perspective on the situation. He seems to have found an incredible amount of clarity in a really short time. We talked about the effect of alcoholism on the children of alcoholics .... he says it's ok it's helped us to grow up more quickly ...... I said no it's not OK you will need to talk to someone at some point, it will affect you for the rest of your life. He says he knows that and he will talk to someone but he's not ready to go there yet.

As I was driving him back to his dad's house (our family home) we passed the bar. As we came around the corner my son said "I hope dad's not in the bar" I said what??? you sound like me, every day of my life for years driving past that bar. He said yeah, I'll be really angry if he's in there. He never even came home last weekend. I came down from college and I didn't even see him.

So we talked about the different roles in the alcoholic household, who takes on the responsibilities, how I feel about my leaving and my responsibilities falling on my kids. It was really incredible. The dynamic has shifted very suddenly.

I think it is due to the NO CONTACT. This has been suggested to me on this site so many times and I found it so HARD to do. I have to speak to my husband because of the kids, I have to speak to my husband to check on his state of mind (because of the kids), I just need to hear his voice to make sure he's OK......etc, etc

It's like sticking your finger in an open electric socket, getting a shock, saying OW and doing it again, over and over. OW, OW, OW

It has been long and slow and painful but no contact seems to be the only thing that changes the story, that resets the dynamic, that shifts the perspective. Keeping up the contact kept us all stuck in a status quo for longer than we needed to be.

The progress is slow but I am making progress. WE (me and my kids) are making progress. The divorce will come at some point and although I have just wanted to get on with it and get it over with, I'm grateful now for all the delays and the time to allow the change in dynamic. My son is going to think about his position on THE HOUSE IS NOT FOR SALE attitude after our chat. He sees it differently now.

I don't regret our marriage. We did something brilliant together and that was bring two amazing kids into the world. I'm so sad it has come to divorce but it has. I trust it will happen at the right time and I am in a much better place to deal with it now. I think the kids are too.

My husband..... poor, poor him is drinking, drinking, drinking and feeling very sorry for himself ...... according to friends, neighbours and kid. I'm trying hard not to feel sorry for him.

hopeful4

Amen, amen! I am 100% positive people get sick of me preaching on no contact, but it truly is the way to heal and move forward.

Big hugs!

FarmhouseGal

Amaranth

I just read through this rather long and painful post again..... I had some questions that I felt like I had asked before and ... yes ... here they were, in this thread with loads of great advice and input from all of you wonderful people ....

And I already feel so much better.

I had a wobble this week. Friends (young people) have come to visit. They are staying part of the time with me but most of the time at "party house" (our family home) where my husband lives with one son and the other son at weekends when he is back from college. (and another stray young person and sometimes his dead girlfriend's daughter)

The friends came back to me with a lot of feedback. They are young, 20, but they were quite shocked by events at the house. My husband did not go on the exotic holiday with his dead girlfriend's daughter. Instead she came to stay with him for several weeks and they got totally wasted together to the point that our young visitor felt very uncomfortable and said it was "inappropriate." Sometimes he doesn't come back for days on end and another night brought back a drunk woman. My son was working in the morning and asked them to keep the noise down so he could sleep and she told him to f*** off, it's your dad's house he can do what he likes. Charming.

Our young friend thinks my son is depressed and wants to take him home with her when they leave. She said his father is not fit to parent.

So I went into a BAD MOTHER spiral and asked myself again...

WHEN DOES DETACHMENT BECOME NEGLECT?

At the same time my husband is managing to paint a really good picture of himself to the world. Lots of people have told me lately how good he is looking, he is talking about stopping drinking, his dad lent him money to start a business....blah , blah.

How is he managing to pull this off????

Actions..... not words. I am trying to disregard the words and be aware of his actions. We still share a job.....he hasn't been there for weeks and weeks and I am working up to the conversation with him that I will have to look for someone else. I see his van outside bars everyday, early, late, all day sometimes......

The letter from the judge has been sent about the divorce. He has to sign for it so if he doesn't pick it up, it will be returned and sent again. If he doesn't pick that up then then someone (the police I think) will go and find him and hand deliver it. This could take months and I wish we could just get it over with......

Meanwhile my husband is driving a wedge between the kids saying it's not fair that grandad (my dad) is helping pay for son at college. He should do something for both.

Yes, he will give money to both for studying. That has always been very clear.

So now I am thinking..... try to persuade son to go back with his friends. There are more opportunities there and he can live with them at first. Also the mum is along the road. I have known her for 25 years. She's like another mum to them. Grandad could be convinced to help with some of the expenses but if we can get him to do some kind of study or training, he would definately help.

So here I am .... trying to fix everything for my son and bringing in a whole load of other actors... my dad, the friends and the mum....

Also, him being away would save him the pain of the divorce, listening to his drunken dad rambling on every night how evil mother wants to make them homeless... blah, blah

looking for the line between detachment and neglect ......

FeelingGreat

Amaranth, what you do for your son to get him out of there is a completely different matter than enabling your AH. I suspect you won't be able to influence him (son) greatly, but what you can do you should.

So great to get an objective opinion from others about the true state of what's going on in the house. Your AH won't be able to keep up the pretence forever.

Is your AH drawing money from a business he's not turning up to work in?

Amaranth

By detaching from my husband and the whole situation I also detach from my son, to an extent. When he doesn't come to see me or answer his phone I don't exactly feel like going over there to find him. But I am asking myself....should I be doing more?

Due to a series of events ( my husband totally responsible for them) he owes money to the people we work for. He is ( not) working it off

trailmix

Does him owing them money have any bearing on your job? If not, I would totally disregard it, that's his own problem.

When people say to you he is doing this and looking great and so and so is lending him money to do that and blah blah - my response would be, oh really, and what has he done? That should end the conversation pretty quick.

Perhaps a good way to connect with your Son would be to suggest you go and do something - I don't know, mini golf, a movie, dinner out at a theme restaurant, just something fun and non-pressure. He might indeed be feeling overwhelmed and coming to visit might seem like - oh no I don't want to go over there and rehash all that.

I would phrase it as, I want to see you let's go play mini golf on Saturday at 2 (or whatever you decide to suggest).

Is it neglect? I don't know. This is a tough thing and something I have faced as well. On the one hand older children WANT to be autonomous and have you keep your nose out of their lives. On the other hand, they blame you when you don't keep in touch as much as they deem fit, it's kind of a no-win lol.

All you can do it make the effort and not beat yourself up if he doesn't want to go out or meet up right now.

Amaranth

Does him owing them money have any bearing on your job?

yes it does. I manage the job and the work he is supposed to do has not been done. I have to either
ask him to do the job (nagging)
ask him if he still wants the job or will I find someone else (control freak)
just get someone else to do the job (sneaky, stealing his work)
tell the client he's not doing the work (total b****, get him fired)

or just do nothing and get myself fired for not managing the job .....

There's no incentive for him to work just now because he's not going to get any money out of it, just less debt

Perhaps a good way to connect with your Son would be to suggest you go and do something

we're going skiing on monday. He was not keen to come but the rest of the kids talked him into it. I won't bring up any contentious topics, just want to have a good day. I won't see them all day anyway. I'm not fully fit for skiing. I'll be on the nursery slopes or more likely in the cafe. It won't be an opportunity to talk but could help build trust.

I feel it's a bit like meeting a nervous dog. If you stick your hand out it backs off. If you don't make an approach and let it come to you in it's own time, it starts to trust you. But you also have to show an interest in it or it will just wander off and ignore you.

it's a fine line