OpheliaKatz

Hindsight is so crazy. It's also crazy that there were so many lies and then suddenly here and there a bit of truth.

MelSober

Joel, just want to say I hope you feel better and stronger as time passes. Breakups hurt like hell. Sending my best thoughts and empathy to you! I have too many flaws and made too many mistakes to offer any advice but I send strength and clarity thoughts your way.

atalose

Im already in an emotional stew and can’t imagine I could be hurt more. So what is the risk? I’m not asking her to move back and just continue. I just want to share kindness and hope it could bring her to a pleasant place...to straighten her thoughts. But do you think it would only make things worse for her? Like I said, I don’t want to hurt her. I just wish I could bring back some positivity to a depressed mixed up person.

So what is the risk? From my own personal experience, the risks are damage to your self-esteem, damage to your self-worth, further hurt and rejection, becoming the target of blame and pressure, prolonged wishful and magical thinking, dread with feelings of obligation and guilt to name a few.

In my own experience had I NOT reached out the first time he had a major relapse and just dealt with my hurt and pain of the relationship ending and moved on I would have saved myself years and all of the above plus worry, stress and financial strain, again to name a few.

I think all of us come here feeling our relationships are unique and in some ways they are, they are unique to us but what we discover is that the relationship between the A and the codie is really not unique at all. The patterns are the same, the endings are pretty much the same and so are the getting back together.

We all have to travel our own path as we see fit, I think the people here are trying to explain to you the large potholes and hurdles they encountered along the way of their relationship journey with an A in hopes of helping you not fall into the same ones and hurt yourself further.

FireSprite

The point that I think everyone is trying to make is that it is irrelevant whether this might make thing worse for her - but there's zero doubt it will make things worse FOR YOU. That's what ultimately matters, isn't it?

What's the risk, you ask?

Your future emotional health. The longer you keep dragging yourself backward into something you have no expectation of growing from, you're holding yourself apart from the Good & Wonderful things out there somewhere else, just waiting to become a part of your life.

You have to make space for new stuff, literally & figuratively. The longer you put that off, the longer you put her dysfunction ahead of your growth. You're wasting time, choosing to walk in circles instead of taking a new path. BUT - it is YOUR time to waste, to be fair.

It really IS that simple. Not easy, not even a little, but simple nonetheless.

tomsteve

" Im already in an emotional stew and can’t imagine I could be hurt more. So what is the risk?"

joel, this is a few lines from a movie- the replacements. its about when a football game starts going south, but i can relate it to trying to rescue/save someone deep into acloholism/addiction- someone that isnt willing to help themselves:

You're playing and you think everything is going fine. Then one thing goes wrong. And then another. And another. You try to fight back, but the harder you fight, the deeper you sink. Until you can't move... you can't breathe... because you're in over your head. Like quicksand.

GoodguyJoel

Hello again everyone,

I have taken the time to read some of the material you have shared and it again is insightful. It is apparent to me that I am not alone in this, and the outpouring from all of you, whether it be straight forward or kind and compassionate is a great reason to be here.

The past few days have been really tough for me. I thought she would have reached out to me by now, but hasn't. I don't know why, but I get a sickening feeling that she either can't confront the pain she has caused or she simply doesn't care anymore.

Her best girlfriend reached out to me, and we tried to corroborate our stories for the sake of seeing the reality. It appears as though she has told her girlfriend she is on a vacation for two weeks, and that the guy is busy with work on a big deal and that they have no hot water in the condo, so she came back here. Now, recall that the step father told me that this is hardly the truth, that she was sent by the guy back here, and that he has sent all of her things back via UPS. The only remaining item is the car, which the mother asked him to hold onto so that she cannot drive around.

I assume the step father is being truthful, because he has no reason to tell me otherwise, and has always been honest, and straight forward with me. The fact that nearly all of her friends have not heard from her about returning, I believe, simply shows shame and guilt. The odd part of this all is in reading some of the other thread on here, is that some people do have problems with their immediate family, or their loved ones, and that keeps them from sobriety. This time, it was none of us because we were out of the picture. I mentioned it was at least somewhat soul soothing for me to know I was not the cause. That doesn't mean I feel good that she returned to alcohol, it breaks my heart more. But the one kicker is that the mother is still supporting her in a variety of ways. I do not blame her, nor am I angry with her, although the girlfriends are, that she is somewhat enabling her. To fall down, and pick her up endlessly...financially, living space, and so on...just seems to give her the ability to keep going with hurting people and making life mistakes. Although they are her mistakes to make, we have all tried to help guide her to seeking real treatment. And my placement in all this still just bothers me that I am insignificant now.

The mornings are the toughest for some reason. I get to work, and my head starts to run, I try to keep busy but I get overwhelmed. I was thinking of a wedding of a friend we went to last fall, who is now having a baby this month. How happy we were dancing and smiling and loving each other looking forward to our wedding. How can these memories, that meant so much to us both, just disappear from her memory. She was sober at that point, and I believe at the party we only had a glass of wine or two, things were normal then. I then look back on the past year, and still get stuck thinking I did things wrong. That I didn't help her properly, or that I didn't support her enough to get up and keep moving with life. I know in the end that still the drinking was her choice, and that impacted her life and mine negatively, but I can't shake that she projects that I wasn't right for her because I couldn't help her out of it.
I feel deep guilt even if I can say I know better. It's all so sad to me how this played out, and then she ran from me instead of working through any issues we may have had, or she was hiding. I am always ready to confront and work on self improvement, but I feel like I didn't do enough of that for her.

I cried at work today and couldn't help myself. I have a secluded office, so I don''t bring it out in the open. I just don't know how to deal with the unreasonable side of her decision. My therapist yesterday amped up his approach to me, and said he was going to because the situation changed where she is back. He says I take everything very personally, and that it destroys me, even if I am not the reason or causation for her behavior. But deep down, I still feel as though I am. Much like all of you say, he also stated that she made this decision in cold sobriety for a month. That even with comments from people suffering from alcoholism on here that say they didn't know their head from a hole in the ground at that stage, and weren't even as far down the rabbit hole of addiction, that she still made this choice to destroy the sanctity of our relationship and cheat on me while in rehab. This really was eye opening. I am not ok with that. Primarily because it hurts me so much that she would do that. But this is where I get stuck...

Please refrain from being harsh towards this:

After my meeting with the therapist/counselor, I was all over the place. And I felt I needed to act on a feeling I mentioned the other day. So I sent the picture of the dog in his cute Halloween scarf to her, just of him. She responded instantly, and said "Awe. Cute. Thank you for sharing."

I was going to send another, but I reached out to some close people, and even her best girlfriend who reached out to me, I asked her her thoughts. I was going to follow up with "You're welcome. Hey, it's great to hear from you. I hope you are doing well. I was listening to Ryoksopp and it reminded me of some of your favorite track. I'd love to see you some time!"

NOW, I didn't send it, BECAUSE...I had restraint. I realized that she is likely not in a place to be able confront the emotion tied to this. I know it seems extremely selfish too, so I didn't do it. It just is so hard to not want to reach out to one you love and cherished. Her friend, and others i talked to did say that she is probably not in a good position to be able to do anything serious because she isn't actively seeking treatment. The girlfriend said she would only bring me down, and the cycle would all begin again. The girlfriends comments:

1. I would be doing her and me an injustice if I do reach out more. That if she's not serious about getting sober, that I will be ruining my life. No graduating, and getting a job elsewhere. No friends, no fun, no real relationship. Until she is sober to not consider going anywhere near her.
2. She isn't planning to get in touch with my A-ex. Not all all, or even see her. Not until she is sober for at least a few months.
3. Her other girlfriends are pretty much done with it all too
4. That if she gets sober, and gets serious about it, she would fully support us getting back together if we could work it out. But she can't stay on this roller coaster
5. That I haven't come up a single time in conversation, but she was drunk most of the times she has talked to her.
6. She said I have to ask myself if I am willing to risk it all, that some people may say that I need to do what ever I need to do, but is it worth it. That I may think we can move somewhere and start over, but nothing has changed for her and she is in the same cycle. I could maybe get a job around our home, and it may pay well, but is that what I want? If I am willing to stay here and deal with it, then do it. Having watched the whole thing, she thinks it is 100% insanity to see her or even getting back with her now.
7. She has lost many of her friends, because she never asks how anyone else is. It was all about her, that her friends all told her (the girlfriend) that.
8. That if she gets sober, and changed her mind, she will contact me. If not, it's not meant to be. Or that if she gets sober, and I want to contact her then, then I can do it. But seeing her now isn't going to do anything good for me in her opinion. That if I contact her now, I am still on the hook, that I'm waiting for her, and that she has the power.

This was some powerful stuff. She knows me, and her very well. This woman thinks the world of me, but saw me become codependent. She knows I love her more than anything, and said she knew A-ex loved me. But once the alcohol really got out of control, she would complain about the same things about me...usually small or financial things (I mentioned I was spending my own hard earned money on a new hobby I was taking up at the time to keep my own sanity...clearly she didn't like that). I was going to buy us a vacation, but she could never have gone in that state. I was going to save it for after rehab as a nice break from everything, and also book the wedding location. But I am fortunate I didn't. I don't see how I could be vilified in all of this...how my being the man, which I very much so was...with my drive and career aspirations, and accomplishments already, as well as good loving behavior, with great care for attraction building throughout the relationship wasn't enough. She loved who I was and was so proud of me. The distortion came when alcohol became the other one in the relationship.

I just don't know what to do with myself in these mornings. I ramble, I contemplate, I meditate, I do everything. I try to keep my mind off of her, I work very hard...yet it always comes back. Like a lingering terrified feeling that I have lost all hope. That she literally looks at me like poop. I don't know! And it kills me! If this were any other normal relationship with out alcohol, we could have worked through anything. She would see the great bond we share, the depths of which were only getting deeper, and more loving. Then her life failures, and the drinking took that all away, and changed her into someone we all don't know any more. I just wanted to see her happy smile again. Her mom posted a picture with her at a close family friends house cooking and eating...she looked awkward, and like she wanted to get out of there. Wearing all the jewelry I've given her, minus the ring. How can she just bumble through the day, not recognizing anything. I have things from her still, and I can't even look at them or I break down. Is this what alcohol can truly do? Numb beyond any sense of empathy or care? Or make you be so sub-human (I mean that in no way offensive), or a better way to say it is a shadow of what one once was?

I read the other threads, and I know it changes people, or that bad behavior occurs...but do these people mean it? Do they want to hurt others? Do they know the pain they cause? Or the life they are losing, the friends, the family...or in my case...me? I'm not anything special, I am just another human. But one that connected so deeply with her. I am full of flaws, and am happy to admit it. I am trying to take inventory. I am trying to see things through her eyes. But I just can't, because I am not an alcoholic. And I can't see even if she was sober, how she came to this conclusion of writing me off.

Ariesagain

I’m so grateful you have such a good real life support system. Your therapist and the ex friend of your ex both sound really knowledgeable and they are in your corner.

Alcohol brings out the worst and destroys the good. As the disease progresses, the lizard brain takes over and all the learned, higher order behaviors...compassion, kindness, self-awareness, love...disappear.

It sounds like she’s always had some self-absorbed tendencies and the modeling industry would make that worse. It’s shallow and vicious behind the pretty.

The people who have known her longest don’t seem too surprised at how this turned out, which I hope will help you realize in time that it was nothing about you that created or nurtured her addiction.

Try to let it go if you can, yes? Looking for explanations where there are none or reaching out just to get slapped is just more pain waiting to happen.

It’s been decades for me and I still remember how much it all hurt. But I got through it. You will, too.

Sending you a hug.

BAW81

GGJ - This comes from a kind place, I promise, because I've definitely had relationships that did not work out and I remained STUCK for months. Analyzing and over analyzing what I did wrong or what I could do which is what I believe you're doing. Ok, so here I go:

You sound obsessed, maybe even addicted.

I'm really happy to hear you're in counseling. That said, reaching out to her friends and family given everything that has happened is not healthy. I hope your therapist helps you understand the root of why you are unable to move forward.

Again, I've been there. Heartache is the worst, that is why there are so many beautiful songs written about unrequited love. I will keep you in my prayers that you find your way to peace and acceptance that this relationship is and should be over.

hopeful4

They do know they are hurting others, however, their addiction is their #1. It becomes their partner, their first and only love, their best friend, their child. Before you, always.

As you know, reaching out to her, even with a pic, is not a good idea. It breaks no contact and is inviting her to reach out to you. For what? So you can rescue her? Don't you think if that was possible it would have already happened? She has to want recovery, and want it so badly that it becomes her #1, forever. I see no sign of that, her friend does not either, and I think you don't either.

Break the ties with her family and friends, it only keeps you focused on her more. Now is the time for you to focus on YOU, and getting yourself in a better frame of mind.

teatreeoil007

GGJ-I write/say this gently: I think you are over-analyzing every little thing about her, about you and her, and about the what if's and the woulda, shoulda, couldas.

Also: You seem to have taken on some guilt for her addiction, like you could have/should have done more to prevent and/or to help her. No no no...this is so unhealthy for you...

You really need to lose the guilt. And, one of the things addicts need to lose is blaming their addiction on something or someone.

The guilt keeps you bound up.

kodi

Hi Joel

I am curious what feeling/thought about your ex is keeping you from detaching from her.

There is something about her or being with her that is greater to you than the great pain you are going through right now. It seems to be the light at the end that you hope for (again) and holding out for. And also why this feeling/thought is only possible from her and her only. Meaning that even giving an option for an identical partner/ emotionally healthier partner / addiction free partner you would still choose the ex.

Perhaps the happier times with her were better than any childhood memory or your childhood home or gave you a feeling you didn't experience before when you were younger?

Perhaps you experienced rejection from an important figure when you were small and helpless and your ex is triggering the same feelings of rejection which cannot be processed due to the severity of it? I.e self-defense to reliving it.

Perhaps she truly was a one in a million loving model wife to be and after you finally were convinced it was all real she crushed your reality by ditching you and leaving you at square one with your self esteem.

There's a few scenarios it could be.

I'm just curious.

GoodguyJoel

kodi,

Honestly, I had a very a wonderful childhood. I have a great family, and overall a pretty good life. I am a happy, upbeat person, so this dramatic switch for me isn't easy.

For me, she was exactly as you described. She was all I could want and ask for from another human being. She thought the same of me, at least until the alcoholism developed thoroughly. She did crush my reality. She did crush OUR dreams. And in the process, she destroyed herself. I don't even know how a person like her begins to rebuild their world. Especially without the recognition of what has been lost. My self esteem has taken a blow, but as I have stated on here, I know my self worth, and still feel positive about my future prospects.

Why her and only her? Because what I mentioned before. This was my wife to be, and I held her and I in such high regard, as did others. It was only when she started drinking that people started to tell me to rethink this all. So, instead of abandoning her, which may have helped with her processing the effects of alcohol (and why I still feel some regret or guilt), I stayed with her. I tried my best to be a good man to her. I stayed through 5 detoxes. I know this is foolish in retrospect, but I didn't know what I know now. I read about alcoholism early on, but not to this extent. I was so preoccupied with my life, and trying to maintain it, the dogs, and keep her afloat that I didn't do what I should have done a year ago...read everything...attended Al Anon. Again, guilt. Some might say it is a learning lesson, but how could one know if they never have experienced such a thing? How could I have known she would go so far with this? I know other people who suffered from addiction, particularly with alcohol, and most cut it off way before these depths.

I love this person. Even now. It isn't simple to describe because I don't think words can describe such emotion, or the reasons it exists. I can't boil it down to one thing...it was our entire experience that makes me feel this way.

Instead, now I am left feeling that she is projecting her flaws onto me. I mentioned I bought many things for my new hobby, and apparently this bothered her lots, enough to talk behind my back to the best girlfriend I mentioned before. Why couldn't she have just spoken to me about it, sat me down and said this is a real problem between us, and unless you want to be with me, this has to stop. This is what I did with her and the alcohol abuse. I guess I am asking a lot because the discussions about my flaws came up when she was drunk. There would have been no way to reason. No way to get through to her.

Sadly, I think of one more event that never ended up happening. We were supposed to go to her therapist at the time for at least one visit together. She and I wanted me to see it from her perspective, and to talk through anything I could do to positively help. We went there that day, and the office said the doctor is out until december due to a family emergency. This was back in...August I think. So, instead, I said lets go to a park and talk through some of the things you wanted to discuss. It was about her financial situation, her situation with her condo, and her parents. I tried to keep things calm, and positive, and tried to tell her this is all temporary, and that we would move on from this all very soon. These problems will resolve themselves in time when she takes some positive action. That her relationship with her mom isn't all bad, and that what has happened between them was out of love and trying to help. I just wonder if things would have gone better if we actually were with the therapist. I couldn't play therapist, but I did hear her out. I know men don't always have to fix things, but I did offer some suggestions, and tried to positively reinforce...She drank later that day

I'm just left feeling like I wasn't good enough, or that I did things wrong. But look at what I just said! I tried to be a supportive person. How does one go on to not appreciate that through your hardest times, those who stand by you are a rare find. I felt that way when she helped me with my Master's thesis. It just all went so far away from the healthy relationship we did have. I loved our relationship, I cherished it, and would have fought for it, always. And I think thats why I am still saying these things. I want to fight for what I believe in, and I believe we shared a beautiful thing. I still think we could, but not like this, not drinking, not admitting fault, not taking action to get treatment...not by avoiding me.

SparkleKitty

The hardest part of all of this for me was accepting that I could not take someone else's addiction (my mother's, my ex-boyfriend's) personally.

No one was drinking at me. Their issues existed before and after me.

What made it so hard was letting go of the idea that I could control it somehow. If it was about ME, then I could change it. But if it wasn't about me, if they were just doing what they were doing because their addiction drove them to it, then I had no choice but to let go. And if I didn't, I would just keep getting dragged.

When we give of ourselves to others, it's natural to expect our generosity to be appreciated. And in most healthy relationships, it is. A relationship with an addict is by its very definition NOT healthy, and eventually, you have to ask yourself what you are really fighting for, and why.

DontRemember

Yeah,man. My exAgf promised she would attend therapy with me(it was ALL my fault in her eyes). When that day came she had me cancel(I still had to pay) and went to the bar to get blackout drunk and spend her rent money gambling. Just because they project their feelings toward you/us doesn't make it fact. If anything it's the polar opposite. Dwelling on her and what she says/said will get you nowhere fast.. Again..The quicker you get to moving on and no contact, the better off you'll be. I also know you love her. I love my ex still,but there is absolutely NOTHING I can do. So what do I do then? Nothing.. I try my best to move forward every day. It sucks,but it is out of my control. Always has been,as she's her own person. I now protect myself to the best of my ability. Hang in there,buddy.

AnvilheadII

After my meeting with the therapist/counselor, I was all over the place. And I felt I needed to act on a feeling I mentioned the other day. So I sent the picture of the dog in his cute Halloween scarf to her, just of him. She responded instantly, and said "Awe. Cute. Thank you for sharing."

I was going to send another, but I reached out to some close people, and even her best girlfriend who reached out to me, I asked her her thoughts. I was going to follow up with "You're welcome. Hey, it's great to hear from you. I hope you are doing well. I was listening to Ryoksopp and it reminded me of some of your favorite track. I'd love to see you some time!"

NOW, I didn't send it, BECAUSE...I had restraint

restraint would have been NOT to send the puppy pic in the first place. you DID have an agenda. you WERE disappointed that the "innocent" text did not have her running back to your arms, instead you got a brief "eh, nice". and you WANTED to send the follow up text, which was the real point of sending anything at all.

i think you are still making WAYYYYY more out of this than needs be. but perhaps that's how you process. the only advice i can give is quit trying to figure out HER out and quit letting her rent space in YOUR head. i think "all" of you are starting to see the forest for the trees on this one, finally...........she had a lot of you fooled/snowed.

GoodguyJoel

All, including Anvilhead, thank you for your responses, straightforwardness, and for keeping me in check.

I will say that I didn't want her to fly back to my arms, especially like this. I found out today that she was drinking again at her parents house, with the usual excuses given to her parents. "It's just wine, it's not hard liquor" and "I don't have a problem."

I want to change this conversation around for a moment, because I truly believed for a moment, that she was going to figure this out after being booted by the other guy, and being with her family, and no one else, that she has to stop. Instead, she continues to drink.

How I want to change this conversation is by saying this...

I am not one for praying, and quite frankly, I am not devout religious in any way. But at this point, I truly got scared to the point where my heart dropped when I heard this. Her parents are about to kick her out...hasn't happened yet, but they are contemplating it. I know they probably should, but honestly the fact that she hasn't attempted any true treatment scares me to the bone. It reminds me of one poster's comment for me to read the story of a man on here who did lose his A-ex to alcohol. My heart cries at the moment because I am truly, actualizing, and acknowledging that this may be a very real possibility. Hence, my remarks for praying. I ask all of you to not just pray for me any longer, I am in a hard place but will survive, but she is risking her life. I know we can't pray her back to health, but please keep this young woman in your prayers and thoughts. I, for the first time in my adult life will do the same, and genuinely mean it. I am truly afraid to get that call, and never thought she would approach this far with this. I always saw her as a survivor, but I now question that due to the severity, the seizures, the bad decision making. At least when she was with me, I did take her to the hospital when things were bad. If she is on her own, this could end direly. OR if this guy takes her back, and they continue on this path, the same could happen because he refused to take her to the hospital.

I know addiction is insanity, and many people have died from it. Let us just pray that we don't lose another. Please be kind and keep your hearts open, and please pray for her.

GoodguyJoel

sylvie,

I know of two people who did do this. One was a mother of a very close friend. Her family and marraige were at risk, and she stopped cold turkey, and hasn't touched it for 10 years. She claims it was a pact she made with God, that she would never do it again as long as she lives...so far that has been true.

The other is the best girlfriend of my A-ex, her mother. She is now a sponsor at AA, and I have talked with her lots about this before and since this happened. She even met with my A-ex to see where she was. She said she was no where near ready and this was months ago in the hospital. She apparently quite over 15 years ago, but drank so heavily for about 10 years. Apparently, it was AA for her, and the fact that she was risking losing her children.

Just thought I would share

GoodguyJoel

Yes, I read the new codependency by melody beattie.

Early on when she first went to the hospital for the seizures due to withdrawal*
Early on refers to past year of our relationship when she started to really take off, note that we had been together for 4 and 1/2 years*
She was jobless at that point, and I was supporting all of us on meager graduate pay, hence keep all of us afloat*

Whats wrong with saying you know when you know? She was right for me until all of this happened. She never acted any of these ways before. She never threw me under the bus a single time before all this. She did an exact 180 from what everyone new of her...but those who knew alcoholism were not surprised.

GoodguyJoel

I will keep all of those struggling with this in my thoughts/prayers as well. It is so far reaching, and has touched so many people.

Yes she did talk to me about it one time long ago. But when all of this happened two months ago, she wanted me to talk with her when ever I needed to, so we did a lot. And she has been a great help in understanding, and also was promoting all the things you mentioned.

biminiblue

Indeed, Joel. Prayers for all the suffering people in the world tonight.